dear guy who wrote this, "Fed-up, I'm fed up by your ignorance, you're nothing but an arrogant semi-educated bastard. Being a semi-educated bastard (that you are) is actually worse than being an completely uneducated bastard, because the uneducated one keeps his mouth shut. An semi-educated idiot like you thinks he knows what he's talking about the we're obliged to listen to your sh***."
i have no idea what this is about and being an ignorant american bastard, i was just wondering what were the core causes of the riots. I dont want to get my info from some corporate news source. so if you would please explain it to me i would appreciate it greatly. My email is frankne4708@yahoo.com. thanks again

I want to share with you all one more reason, fromwhat experience has taught me, while working overseas for many years now, that was after serving in the Greek Navy as an Officer and later becoming a Sea Captain.
That of personal responsibility. Stop, look and ask not what the government will do for you, But What You Will Do to Help your country and the Situation. You need to know that in life you have a choice to build or destroy.
I've personall decited to do the first and I've done more than well in my life.
Destruction isn't the solution for the future, do not be part of the problem of a complicated system which wants to devide and weaken you. When you fight you loose your power, your emotions control you. Do not fall into the river and be washed away. Stand on the bridge look at rushing water, be in control of your feelings and use your inner strength to bring real and lasting change to help yourself your community and shape your destiny in a peaceful but determine way.
Young well educated Greeks who want to work hard, truly love Greece I am convinced that there will find the way.
Do not look for outside help in the "New world order world" you are the way to our future. But remember in a PEACEFUL Mahatma Gandhi way...
Capt. Ilias
Capt

I am an ignorant Greek bastard myself. Like Neil Franklin, the American ignorant bastard, I too am curious about that other poster's take on the issues. The poster that f**** a lot and sh*** a lot, but says nothing on the issues.
Fed-up, you appear to be fairly well informed about us Greeks, and the way you handled the obscenities thrown at you, a balance between wit and almost in kind mix, shows that you kept your cool. I am sure you know by now, that we call everybody else (and each other) malaka and if we don't have answers, we tell each other to go and f*** ourselves. Perhaps you have seen the news clip, where former foreign minister Pagalos tells a reporter to go and f*** himself, for asking about former PM Simitis expulsion from Pasok. So, please, don't take it personally, we have the tendency to f*** a lot and sh** a lot for the sake of appearances, but as the recent riots indicated we always end up being f***** up ourselves. We know everything about you, we even know that you are a CIA a$$whip! But do we know why we destroyed the Grigoropoulos family store while protesting the Grigoropoulos boy death? If we do, we yet have to go on record.

To #1366:
A 15-year old dies and you get a good bunch of people posting shamelessly comments of the type "they did well to the brat", or "I would've done the same" or "shoot the protesters like we would do in my country", and yet you feel scandalised by someone who uses F* and S* words in their posts?? I think you need to re-evaluate your moral values and priorities in life.

Secondly, someone like fed-up is calling me an uneducated, ignorant, lazy, corrupted bastard who never works and lives off the money of people who work hard in other countries etc etc, and yet you were bothered by the fact that someone else (not me) teasingly called him a CIA a$$wipe? So fed-up knows me better than my mother because of my nationality and has the right to talk to me like trash, oh but when I give him the reply he deserves then I have the typical malaka/f*ck-you Greek attitude? Talking about double standards, I rest my case.

My turn... Well you know what? I'm sick and tired of the "all but myself" attitude, which you so typically represent. "We greeks are this and that, we say f*ck you and sh* because we're idiots, and hey, eventhough I'm Greek I'm not like that because when I say 'we' I mean everyone -but- me, because as it is implied I'm better than everyone else in my societey, and if everyone was like me things would be so much better... Call me crazy but I get this wild feeling that you're wrong. You're likely not so much different than all those you try to differentiate yourself from, and neither am I, and maybe the act of acknowledging this fact will be the first step to improvement.

Oh and by the way, as for the "fed-up keeping his cool" comment, read post #1269 please. Let me just quote some highlights from it:

Fed-up (#1269) said:
"So you love Turkey! Remember that next time America sides with your "Turkish brothers"!
Speaking of "stereotypes", do you care to reflect upon yours? Lazy pompous jackasses (gaidouria), who will kiss ass for a little job in a little bank and spend their days protecting their kektimena all the way to their syntaxi? Yes, there is also a "minority of intelligent Greeks" (who I am sure share your mentality).... To say "f*** you to a Belgian girl is rather presumptuous of you, to say the least. You wish! She can reject you in three languages, I am sure, while in Greece you have only two official languages: American English and Greek!"

And there's much more where that came from... Read the rest. Oh yeah, fed-up is really keeping his cool and is being very mature, what a balance of kindness and wit, my god.
So in case you didn't notice, fed-up would post under different names (such as omega or anonymous) everytime he intended to insult me and another couple of millions of people, as well as belittle and troll with the Greek posters.

...and to continue:
3) can u remind us of how many teenagers inserted their school (the last decade) with a gun and started killing their fellow students??
-I 've really lost count...
4) do u wanna talk about guantanamo?
- I am sure that 'human rights' does not exist in the local dictionaries...

So if u still feel so civilised...go on...criticise us greeks ;)

the great Greece

propably the first part missing so i repost...
well since many americans (not all hopefully) criticise greek protests and blame greeks for lack of civilisation i would like to ask a few things.
1) what about oil war in Iraq??
-have u found the nucs or still looking?
2) what about the war in afghanistan??
- have u found bin landen, or u have to kill another thousand of innocent people to get him?

Thank you for your response, #1367. Please allow me a response to your thoughts. Comments such as "they did well to the brat", "I would have done the same" are indeed shameless, and "shoot the protesters like we would do in my country" are simply inaccurate and represent the posters' personal (and shameful) attitudes rather than what is happening in other presumably western countries. This is my unequivocal position. We know damn well, that in western democratic societies, cops do not have orders to shoot to kill unless their lives are in imminent danger. There is due judicial process in the case that such an event occurs, as at the same time lynching is not an option. Much has being said already on the subject of our police training, or the lack of it thereof, and I think there is a consensus on this particular issue among us. Therefore it is not a question of been scandalized by your profanity, but a case of bewilderment about what one expects to accomplice by such language. As debates go, I am afraid you have lost yours with that particular poster. What he posted is not something unknown to most of us, and frankly there are more severe "evaluations" posted here than his. Most recent #1362): "...thieves....f***** up... corrupted... our mentality is just awful...people are fed up...." And her final advice? "If you want to be happy and calm just move and don't offer another cent to all the losers that compose the Greek system." I can't see anything worse than this in the words of your target, and yet you are not similarly disturbed by hers. So, it is not a matter of morality for me, a reason to evaluate my moral values as you urge me to do, but more of a case of consistency for you, a reason to evaluate the effectiveness of your debating skills. And in the process stop preaching morality to others. This holier (and more knowledgeable) than thou approach is a dead end approach.
Now, and for the sake of accuracy if not fairness,let me point out to you that the poster in question did NOT call you any such names until AFTER you gave him the cesspool treatment. Don't take my word for this, just review what it is posted here in chronological order. Fed-up came up straight forward, albeit sarcastic to some extend, with his comments. Some Greek posters, myself included, saw merritt in his writings. Our prerogative to agree is not different or lesser than yours to disagree. You don't have to agree if you so choose, but at the same time you don't have to go ballistic because a non-Greek with genuine interest in our affairs "threw" several Greek truths at us.
And finally on "your turn". Please, point out one, just one, thing I wrote, supporting your accusation of what you describe as my "all but myself attitude". By using first plural I dare sharing responsibility for everything that is wrong with us, from the cause to the effect, to the end result. Nowhere I make an attempt to "differentiate" from others, and as per your request, I acknowledge the fact that I am as bad (and hopefully as good) as any other fellow Greek next to me.
In my initial post, and in less than two lines, I shared my curiosity with neil franklin about your stand on the issues. I remain curious, I am afraid. I care about messages while the personalities of the messengers leave me largely uninterested. And most definitely, the profanity that you apparently find justifiable by "circumstance", and feel so much comfortable with, turns me off. Bear that in mind, should you decide to respond.

Your point? Fed-up, as you quote him, is fully "supported" by material provided by myriads of Greeks in this forum and elsewhere. I fail to comprehend your obsession with this particular poster, when there is a plethora of similar material contributed by countless Greeks. Don't we call each other names? Don't we label each other "lazy"? Don't we "kiss ass" political or otherwise to get a job in a bank or elsewhere? Aren't we all collectively and individually "fed-up"? If anything, it is the realism of the message we should find offending, and do something about it, not the messenger. Please stop attempting to drag me into your apparent personal dispute with this particular poster. For all I know he is a jerk with the most malicious motives. But he apparently is done with this blog and perhaps you should follow your own advice to others, and ignore him/her (#1334). Like he does in ignoring you.

Let me first begin by saying that I am an American born Greek and I cannot say that I understand the turmoil that current Greek citizens are experiencing. One thing I can say is that after reading some of the messages on this blog I am appaled by the level of intolerance and seeming hatred between American Greeks and Greeks. Understand this everyone, we are all derived from the same place. We share a common history and should share pride in where we come from (Greece). As an American, I cannot help but compare the system of government in our two countries and usually I fall in support of a system that I am used to (American democracy). This is of course due to the fact that this is the only system I have ever known, not to say that it is the only true system or the correct one. Additionally, as an American I support the rite of an individual to form and hold his or her own opinions no matter how different than my own and I would gladly give my life so that all citizens can voice thier opinions freely without fear of reprisals. This is the America I have grown to know and this is the view of most of her citizens. We do have our share of A**HOLES to say the least but our majority is very tolerant of others views.

Anyway, the thing I am really trying to get out here is that all Greeks both from Greece and abroad should be united in making Greece a better place and stronger country. To you American Greeks I say that if we do not, then how will we pass our heritage on to our children if there is nothing left to show them?

To the greeks in Greece, you must stop pushing your American, English, Australian etc, etc counterparts away. Remember you can never have to many friends in life. In addition, the violence and protests currently underway will do little to change the country. The only way to truly initiate the change you desire is to empower yourselves with knowledge through education. With that power (of the mind) you can and will position yourselves to better your / our country and the world as a whole. This of course is the harder path which is usually the path less travelled which is why the world finds itself in the condition it is. Mind set has to change because through these protests, you are in effect pushing away everyone and will soon be without support.

I will end this now by wishing everyone the best and I hope that some of my words will get through to some of you on both sides of the equation.

"We know damn well, that in western democratic societies, cops do not have orders to shoot to kill unless their lives are in imminent danger. "

I am not sure what it is that people not living in the united states read, see on the news, or learn in school however the statement that i have pasted above is nothing but at utmost lie. i live smack dab in the middle of the US and i know enough about my country to know that it is a police state. for every 4 people living in NYC there is one police officer. i have seen people in wheelchairs be tazeered to the point of seizuring, not to mention a while back there was a group of people protesting something, but they were just sitting there. silence, no flowers, no guitar playing, no anything. they were just sitting there. and one by one the police snapped every single one of their arms in half until they got up and sat down in a squad car. broken arms for every one of the for what? sitting there.. my friends if you dont recognize that the birthplace of democracy is tainted then you are in for a cruel ride when this starts happening in every city of every country. im not saying that to create widespread panic but seriously open your eyes. your voice means nothing especially when you have no convictions otherwise.
one more thought i might like to add, where were this little boy's parents? what purpose does a 15 year old child have in the middle of blaze, hate, and gunfire? yes, it's a tragic. i have had friends die young in car crashes from alcohol and drug overdoses, and i cry no more for them than i do this 15 yr old boy. someone should be held responsible and it should be the parents for not doing their job. but yet we focus on the police just because he was doing his. bullets dont know the difference between an infant or a tree.

as i keep reading down the line i keep seeing people pointing their fingers at US policy and citizens and iraq.. blah blah... do you know that not a single member of my extended family believes that 9/11 was an inside job, any fool can see that. now i love my family dearly, but i do not stick up for any of the narrow minded fucks that just so happen to share my land. you can call us all what you want, but there are some people out there in every part of the world who are moral and just. what gets my goat is that you want to pool me into the same column of all those narrow minded f*cks. half of our country's problem is TV. and what you see on it, and i assume thats where you get your implications as well, being as you have prolly never stepped foot here. so i guess the TV is what your problem is too, the filtered "truth" i hope you all reconcile your problems, but name calling and labeling yourself "greek american that hates greeks" just makes you even more pitiful. you are a human nothing more and nothing less, what people call you and what you see yourself as is self appointed hate. get used to it, we all got problems.

#1375. So your country (the US) is a police state and I take it as a proof that "for every 4 people living in NYC there is one police officer". (Sorry, my good man, but that's as far as I went reading your "truthful" piece). Did you ever consider moving to Canada, Mexico....New Jersey? I mean, there must be a place on earth with a better "people to cop" ratio, why stay and suffer in the US?

#1375. Let's see....if for every 4 people living in NYC there is one police officer, and the population is 10 million (feel free to correct the number!), then there must be 2 million cops in NYC! Wow! Is this the utmost truth?

#1375.
Ok, TV is the problem... Why do you watch Tv news? I am from Greece, I am sick of the news. But I solved this problem. I don't watch TV.
You refer to 9/11. It's a discussion that you realise that requires many many hours of typing thw keyboard.
And you are surely exaggarating when you say that for every 4 americans ther is one policeman.
Check the citizens/policemen ratio again.
With 2 million policemen you shouldn't have any criminals whatsoever.

havent all these people had there two cents well said to those that know about everyone telling something about shit an stuff an all the poems an english an all the hoyty toyty way of tellin everyone about what they know about everything
devoid of purpose
full of angst
the mirrors that hide it all have become see through
who gives a f*ck what those who dont want to know think they know
those that are there see with there own eyes
who is there to ask cnn fox bbc , quote churchill

cnn

#1378
That's 2 million cops in New York City alone! In case anyone thought that only we Greeks are numerically challenged and prone to exaggeration.
#1375
By "middle of the US", do you mean Hawaii by any chance?

Both sides are insane! The Greek government men are power-mongering fools, and the protesters are mad. Violence breeds only more violence, and those not deserving to be caught in conflict are tossed in with the tide. These riots show that people have learned nothing from history.

As for the Americans... I have no sympathy for the story of 9/11. Not after our ridiculously childish lashing out after the attacks occurred. There are ways to solve problems without resorting to paranoid violence, and the American government is very good at ignoring those ways and passing on ignorance to those who always do as they are told. If Martin Luther King Jr. could gain rights for the black people of America, then it is still possible for the nation itself - as well as Greece and every other nation on this planet - to achieve goals peacefully, if only we stop pretending we are waging jihad against every person who disagrees with us.

F*%# THE AUTHORITY, F*%# THE POLICE!!!

Its going to get worse in 2009.Not only in greece but on a global basis.

http://www.squidoo.com/worldfinancialcrisis

Report i read in spring 2008.covers 2008-2010.Must read for all,
Get prepared because the crisis ABOUT TO EXPLODE.

Who will repair the damage after the flames die. Do not look the USA this time.

USA give a look first at your poor people that are living in the streets, look all those mad people that have guns legally, all the problems that you caused in this world..Do you never think why everybody in this world hate you so much?

Then come and talk us about your bloody money..Money from theoils of Iraq..
Murderers

About what money are you talking about James martin? The bloody money from the oils of Iraq? The money that your country earnts by destroying nations and countries?
Pay for your damages first..For you people that live in the streets..
And think why all people hat your country?Can you stand the truth?

Murderers

The USA is beyond repair.

yes to give money that you cant cover with your national gold
print some pls...

It's a shame to call Americans names. Greeks should not forget that if not for the Americans, will probably be like Albanians or worst. Americans are your friends.
You don't want to think of Americans as your enemies.It will be very painful. Americans are a superpower and what are you? Look at yourselves, your problems and try to solve them. You are very sentimental and this will not help you.What happened to your old self discipline? or you are different people.

Greek youth showed the way: how rational, responsible people, sensitive citizens should oppose organised state violence.
They were, during those days, not very different from those people in Gaza that despise sheer military power like the american buit and offered to Israel F_16 exhibit beyond human reason, mainly for electoral reasons.
"Very painful" indeed is the American friendship, Greece -among many others- understood that well during all the "stone years" 1945 - 1975.
Now it is Afghanistan and Irak that feel the pain of the American friendship attack.
But the good news are that the oppressor NEVER wins ... Read your history, starting from your independence war
But

Mr. Spelios,(comment 1389)

Not that I am for calling Americans names (I am Greek-American) but in answer to your question “Americans are a superpower and what are you?” I would like to make some comments
a. We are Greek and know exactly what “American friendship” leads to… I think we will pass… You can only be “friends” when mutual respect exists not when one party takes advantage of the others weakness and forces its will (bases, arm deals, dictatorships etc.)
b. Who are we? Well it seems we are Russia’s best pall in the Med… check out Burgash-Alexandroupoli pipeline and The Russian Navy exercise south of Rhodes… We also seem to be getting along with China quite well, Piraeus terminal leased to COSCO…
And since I mentioned the above here is a time line for you all
Summer 2007 -Signing of Burgash-Alexandroupoli agreement.
Fall 2007 -Half of Greece burns “Forest Fires”
November 2008-Signing of Piraeus terminal agreement with COSCO
December 2008-Athens Riots
January 2009 - Greece agrees to allow Russian Fleet in the Aegean
January 2009 - 20year old cop shot while on duty
Notice a trend???
Who would have an issue with all these agreements the Greek government is signing???
Make a note Our “FRIENDS” don’t like Karamanlis because he realizes that the word “SUPERPOWER” is no longer applicable only to the US… Russia and China are staking their claim…
Also I think you are a bit over the top with the like Albanians comment… But I am not even going to bother with that one…
I do agree that we must look at ourselves and try to solve our problems on our own… Because if we let our “friends’ help us we are, as they say, F*cked….

1389 : Imperial Sadomasochistic Amalgamated Deracination.

Nonviolence represents the only means by which true liberty & democracy are realized...
This mistrust & pessimism that beset our age make even more urgent the need 4 Gandhi's brand of optimism. He was intelligent & kind & proudly declared faith in humanity.

Greeks are showing the world how to protest. They are my heros and heroines, all these weak leftist movements in The west have been Zionised and brainwashed for years with all these 'peaceful' protest marches that have achieved nothing...its time we fought fire with fire, we need to fight for Gaza against these Zionist animals , all Israeli, American and Egyptian embassies need to be the centre of our wrath. Stop this march towards Fascism and the New World order that will only enslave us all. All these moderates in the left are spies and misinfo agents for Israel and mossad.

Well, I think this is going to be a long posting.
I got an email about the photos on this page, but curiosity got the best of me and I read what was written on the most recent comments (last 100).
What is happening here, is what usually happens in all the discussion threads I have followed in the past; someone gets "passionately" of topic and the whole thing goes to hell.
It is not about what happens in other countries or if Greeks, Americans, French etc hold a grudge against eachother for some idiotic reason or another.
It should be about what happened and why it happened in Greece (or better yet Hellas, which is the correct name of the country).
Everyone is entitled to an opinion (even the ones that don't have a clue, unfortunately) and I guess this is a place to share it.
I would like to begin by saying that it is unfortunate - if not tragic - for a young person to die. Least of all, from a gun of a policeman who is paid (through the taxation of his parents) to protect him.
The boy was in an area in Athens where violent insidents happen quite often. It is what could be called a ghetto. So, you can do the math for what provocation to a untrained, low-paid cop there could result to.
That said, the policeman is arrested and is in jail pending trial. So, the legal route has already been taken.
What is not issued here - but can be seen in some of the photos above - is the number of policemen being injured by molotov bombs, stones and steel bars.
Now about the demonstrations, I guess it could not be avoided, considering the fact that there was already civil unrest for other reasons (economic crisis, government scandals, unemployment, low salaries etc) which was daily fueled by the media for their own petty agentas.
I do not like violence in general, but I could understand why goverment buildings or banks would be likely targets for frustrated citizens.
What I do not understand, is why honnest businesses (and I'm talking about consumer goods shops) would be targeted and looted by protesters.
When asked, the majority of Greeks replied that they agreed with the protests but not in the way they were manifested.
I think this whole thing was aggrevated by provocators playing on the hurt feelings of the citizens and deeply "injuring" the cause of the protests. Who the provocators worked for I cannot say, because there were many to gain. And everybody is happy - except for the simple folks , of course:
- The government (any government) gets to take our minds of the crisis and scandals. AND, as an added bonus, it gets the right to outlaw any protest march or at least frighten its citizens out of joining one out of fear of being hurt either by the police or by the "angry" crowd.
- The media get days of cheap (it's cheaper to show news than a movie, series, documentary) highly watched news shows all day long. AND a chance to get back on a government that tried to institute a law (Vasikos Metohos=Major Stockholder) against companies that owned more than one TV channel and newspaper; a law that is actually held in other countries including EU and USA to avoid any company monopolising the news to their own profits and ensures freedom of the press.
- The rest of the political parties get a chance to appear all righteous in their pathetic try to earn more voters in the next elections.

What is actually missed here, is that the right to protest is being attacked and of course Greece is once again portrayed as the black sheep of the western world, while other countries with similar problems are not mentioned.

This is just my opinion and I don't need it answered or critisized, as I did none for the other postings.
I will probably not revisit to see comments.

What was goin on in Greece is what i call BEAUTIFUL(besides the civillian slaying, which is downright pitiful). This needs to happen everywhere in the world. People are uneducated of the truth of what their government is truly doing.
Unemployment, health care, and poverty are easily solved problems. There is the technology to cure our energy, poverty, and health problems but our government doesn't fund these important things. Instead they keep them around for population control. Our government protects the upper class so much because the upper class makes more taxable dollars, and with all that wealth they need a false sense of security and are more than willing to sign away their rights for "security". It's pathetic that people on this earth could sell off false meanings of life (religion) and exploit the shit out of every human that they can just to have all this power and wealth. But we shall never know the real truth, which could be way beyond these political and corporation frauds and scams. Unfortunately we will never know. If you disagree i don't blame you, its because you haven't seen the new info that wipes out the old. for that you should watch the Zeitgeist movies. www.Zeitgeistmovie.com i'm just asking if you haven't seen them to watch them with an open mind.

The recent riots in Greece had two faces: the one was the face of young kids protesting peacefully by offering flowers to a police officer in a symbolic gesture, as you can see in the photos above, despite the unprovoked shooting and death of the teenager. The other is the face of anarchists and immigrants vandalising and burning our country just because they are beasts and have nothing better to offer in a society. The corrupted Greek politicians and the corrupted to the bone current state of the Greek police gave them the perfect opportunity. As for the rest of the Greeks, we are weeping for our lost home και την τρισάθλεια κατάντια μας....

You dont know anything about my generation, ''1306'', so be it .You are stuck in your propaganda. Just open your eyes because nothing was achieved by following the goals of those who want to suppress your primary rights. Just consider what I have told you...!
Denis & Padelis from Greece

Choose a great government (a NEW one which will fight for people, noone of the existing ones) and enjoy happiness.
Choose a government from the already existing political parts and we will always enjoy such pictures. SO SIMPLE!

....all these god fearing, organic muesli eating people, protesting against violence are normally quietly supporting the worse and most lethal dark forces just because they are somehow legitimised. Israel mascaraing palestine, modern US + EU crusades against the muslims, Christianity raving against anybody different, even Nazi Germany until at least 1939, etc...
tsk, tsk hypocrites, you are lucky there is no god to punish you...
-and for all those who think that peaceful protests make a difference, 2milion Spaniards protested peacefully against their country going to war in Iraq... they didnt even get good TV coverage let alone change their country's plans. Still waiting for a Gandhi to save you?

I'm not an anarchist or an activist, and I'm well aware of the widespread corruption in Greece. I am a working person (not someone who just smokes weed and theorizes about everything) and I empathize with people whose property was burnt. I am, however, of the opinion that when a boy is shot down by police in cold blood, riots NEED to take place, if only as a way of saying to the authorities "You can't do this". Any person (from Greece or any other country) who choses to see past this simple fact and to talk about 'change within' or 'connecting to nature' or God or Homer or shopping sprees is a bit sick and should wonder whether they have any humanity left in them.

Yes, some people went shopping and yes, some shopkeepers were worried, that's life, people try to get on with their lives and you shouldn't be too quick to judge that, no matter what side you're on. Can you not see that this is NOT necessarily connected to the riots? What are you saying? That if you demonstrate about the killing of a boy (or even about other social phenomena, like poverty or unemployment) then you can't go buy your mum a christmas present? Some of you (again, on both sides) are elitists all the way. All you care about is propaganda. The worst are the conservatives, like *fed up* who say that 'nothing changes', and that all we saw was "some minor civil disobedience". If that's all you saw, you're sad.

#1401.
Like most Greeks, if you are one, you can't resist the temptation of preaching ("".... should wonder whether they have any humanity left in them."). Like most Greeks, if you are one, you have the tendency to attach labels ("The worst are the conservatives like *fed up"...), as at the same time you express your peculiar concept of "progress" ("...riots NEED to take place....). Like most Greeks, if you are one, you indulge in misquoting. Where exactly (comment number?) did I say "nothing changes" and in what context if I did? Was it really all that I saw "some minor civil disobedience"? Where? If I am to be "sad", I would like to make sure that I am the right person!
On your message itself: The true simple fact is that one, anyone, CAN'T solve HIS problems by constantly blaming OTHERS for HIS failures. It all starts with a society EXPECTING EVERYTHING from the government and ends up with the same society DEMANDING EVERYTHING from the government. Or else! There must be an alternate method to violence, to relay a message to an ELECTED government. If we have reached the point where peaceful ways indicate "conservatism", then I will admit to the fact that I am a "conservative".
And one more "simple fact" for you. There is a widespread consensus among Greeks, that theirs is a corrupt society, albeit the fact that corruption starts where their own individual virtues end. However, and at risk of attracting your "collective" wrath again, let me me add that Greek society has turned gradually violent as well. Earlier in this blog, a contributor laments that a "peaceful riot"(sic) turned violent by the police, (of course, rioters are peaceful by definition, aren't they?) while it is deemed necessary to label concerts or events as "peaceful". Peaceful as opposed to what? Leave it to the Greeks, I suppose, to slaughter words and concepts....
And then it is your very own "need" for riots! If riots are good, even if conditionally so, then I am afraid that in Greece you have too much of a good thing! I will leave it to you to count all the unrelated generic "run of the mill" protests since the riots, that took place in Greece, starting with New Year's Eve and all the way to the recent "pan-student" and counting.
Why don't you face the truth? In Greece it is not a case of events asking for protesters, but the other way around: protesters looking for issues to protest about. And if not there, invent them! Like the Greek saying goes, "troyeste me ta rouha sas". Meanwhile, the credit rating of the country went down yesterday, dragging along the Euro as well, but I am sure this will only concern "some people (who) go shopping", and "some worried shopkeepers".....
But as one of the "worst", setting the standard for the "worst" as a matter of fact as per your modest assessment, what do I know?

PS. Obscenities will not be acknowledged.

Greek No 96311. Your saying every peaceful protest was a total waste? That we should always fight and not talk about it basically. Oh yeah lets all go get out our nukes; save the god damned world! I have nothing wrong with what you said... its just very flawed.

*1402 I'm sorry if I misquoted you *fed up*, but every sentence of yours starts with 'like most Greeks' and none of your comments acknowledge a complicated situation. At least I directed my comments against both sides (read again what I said about shopkeepers and you'll realize that you misquote me too, my comment was not with contempt to them, but directed to a lot of left-wing simpletons who think everything is about consumerism or to other idiots who seem to think that if you protest and then go and buy a christmas present that's a contradiction). With vast generalizations, like that the truth is that Greeks look for events to protest against, you suggest that the event of a 15 year old being gunned down was not significant (or it was "invented" you say, because of our appetite for protesting!!! please...)

Your conservatism is evident in a lot of your arguments, for example the fact that when someone says that often police starts the violence you comment back that the protesters do it as well, thus implying that it's ok for the police to do it sometimes too. Do you even realize the difference between being a citizen with the constitutional right to protest and being a policeman paid to keep things calm? Not even the head of the police thinks that way. Regarding the police: they shot a 15 year old and the country went mad and 2 days later 5-6 of them are caught on several cameras kicking 2 schoolgirls who were protesting peacefully! Honestly, what does that tell you about the Greek police and their training?

On the 18th of December when there were only peaceful protests, a lot of 'para-police' people mixed with the demonstrators and smashed things up. I'm not an anarchist or a left extremist and i don't like to indulge in conspiracy theories, but I do believe something when I see it with my own eyes. How do i know that these people were police-related? I saw them smashing up shops despite other protesters telling them not to, and then simply walking through the police lines and disappearing behind them after saying hello to them. The police have a small army of 'para'-forces who join them frequently. You don't have to take my word on this one, go on youtube and see these people dressed in normal clothes and helmets (and holding bats!) going after demonstrators as the front line of the police force. Those were the people that smashed things up on the 18th when the protesters didn't have any intention to. You might want to acknowledge that things sometimes are not so simple and that most Greek citizens don't approve these tactics and cannot be held responsible for them; just because they voted for one party or the other doesn't mean they said yes to this kind of "law enforcement".

You say that corruption starts from within, but that's a half true, half-cliche comment. Corruption often comes from your neighbour or your government, not always from within. I'm not suggesting any solution, but yes, I do think that protests need to take place when necessary, just like any other democrat thinks; you seem to mock this idea and find it opposed to progress (which is pretty much what Mussolini or Franco would say in their day). You don't suggest any solution yourself, you just accuse those who are content (for what they voted) and those who aren't (because they protest). The only solution according to you is for one to change within? Some youths in Greece have just come out of school, not having voted yet, and find themselves working hard for 700 Euros a month (which buys you 3 meals a day with difficulty, forget about rent and the rest), that is if they're lucky to find work. If I were you, I'd be more hesitant to say that we invent reasons for protesting. Go and tell these people they should look within themselves if they want change.

#1404
Well, your judgement of my thoughts was based on falsehoods then, which takes much out of your original arguments. You are correct, I do not offer comprehensive solutions, as you say and I agree the situation is complicated and (I add) in the making since 1974. However one can be practical and start with simpler things first. If I were facing the situation, as discribed by a contributor quite sometime ago, of having to pay five euros for a coffee on a 700 euro monthly income, personally I would stop drinking coffee.
Had I not started my comments with "like most Greeks", I would stand accused of generalizations (even so, you still accuse me of cliches and generalizations). Perhaps you would feel more comfortable with your "some" then? It's only marginal and the situation remains as corrupt as you and many others believe that it is. In a country where corruption was institutionalized in the 80s (please see my previous related postings so I don't repeat myself), does it come to you as a surprise that the police force is also corrupt?
No, the death of Alexis was not invented, no one can argue with death. But the rush to pass judgement just hours after the event does not leave room for justice to be delivered (I assume justice and not revenge is what you are after).
My point about Greek "protestants" is supported by the facts. Not a day goes by without one or more of the following taking place or planned ahead (protests are the rare occasion of Greeks planning ahead!): strikes, work stoppages, road blocks, assorted seizures, ("symbolic"(sic) and otherwise - what is the difference?)of buildings, schools, theaters, government offices, radio and TV stations etc., street demonstrations. There was a time when Greek celebrities (Smaroula Yuli, Dimitra Galani) were doing Playboy-style pictorials in protest of something! And of course we have protest concerts or other protest cultural events. In this context, and strictly so, I am still trying to comprehend the connection of what followed the young man's death with his death itself. The fact that among the victims of the rioters were his own parents only highlights the futility of the attempts to add a silver lining to that emotional and out of control outburst.
In the end I don't see what was really accomplished, other than the obvious destruction that is. If you feel that you can survive as a society without a police force, then do away with it. If you think police corruption is isolated within Greek society, then the problem shouldn't be difficult to be solved.
In conclusion, I must repeat that the riots have being upstaged by other events "worth protesting". After fourteen hundred entries in this blog I don't see what new can be said. The subject has been exhausted. As for protests in general, my point is that they have become a way of life in Greece, social events of sorts. I don't want to be the one to spoil your parties. Go ahead, keep looking for the barbarians, if you feel that this is a solution.....
Nice talking to you and have a nice day!

Absolutely, stunningly, fantastically amazing piece of photojournalism that more than slightly relieves the icky pressure point I've been feeling about the subject.

*1405
Comments of yours like "I would stop drinking coffee" are what led me to call you conservative. If you think that's a solution, or the most relevant thing to say on poverty and unemployment, what would you have me answer?

It doesn't come as a surprise to me that police are corrupt; rather it comes as a surprise that while you acknowledge that, you're still against protests. I agree with you that more protests than necessary take place in Greece, but clearly that's not the issue here: this forum is about the particular ones for which there is reason. Your argument follows a reversed logic: you claim that Greeks often protest for no good reason and then you take that as your platform to suggest that, therefore, this protest is for no good reason too. I don't think that your context (other protests) is valid in this case.

Regarding your claim that his parents were the victims of the outburst, I assume that you're referring to his father being a bank director? Which I think is irrelevant too. For most of us belonging to these last couple of generations (I'm thirty myself) the fact is that our parents are (or at least their generation is) responsible for most of the corruption you and I have both mentioned. What my mum or dad does as a job does not influence my political opinions or actions and it's healthy to keep it that way. And if our parents are to any degree responsible for the state of things in Greece, I don't think that makes us responsible too, unless we choose to continue their 'legacies'. I really can't see the connection in that comment of yours. Perhaps there is something I have misunderstood?

Demonstrations, by definition, are not necessarily about accomplishing something, they are protests about something which happens/is happening, but is not judged to be morally right. And sometimes they're futile but it doesn't mean they're not right or they shouldn't take place. You can look back in history and recognize futility in any civil unrest at its early stages. People said that about antislavery protests and probably about any revolution against any occupation or oppressing class or force too. For any movement against any oppression the odds are less than good, since the oppressor is by definition stronger; so there is a good chance that it can be seen as futile or that it in the end nothing much is achieved. But it's the motivation that counts too, not only the result, I'm sure we can agree on that.

Also, whether something is accomplished or not is not always visible; but that doesn't mean that it's not graspable. Do you think the odds of a policeman repeating the same crime are the same as before? I don't think so. You have acknowledged that the police is quite corrupted. I'm adding that if they're unchecked by the public then surely worse things will follow and a lot of policemen will not think about it too much to shoot at someone else too, whenever their patience is 'exhausted' or simply when they feel they feel like punishing someone (which a lot of them happen to think is within their realm of responsibilities). So maybe there is an accomplishment (in the form of preventing the same thing happening again) that you and I don't see right away like we see some burnt cars on the news.

Comment 1391: I think Cheekey resumed the situation very well ! I can add Cyprus affair to his list ! Leave Greece alone all you "friends" , we were very happies without your "aid" ! This riots were organized by leftists like Siriza ! They are "leftists" but in CIA's payroll . You all speak about the young Aleksandros(and that's very well to do it) but nobody pointed the second attempt to kill another student ! I have to inform some "good thinker" that the gun who injuried the young policeman latter is exactly the same according to balistic test ! Some WONT blood in Greece for destabilize actual government ! Probably a chance if some foreign "reporters" quote Mr Papandreou like unique solution to the problem right ? The good thing is some senators(not in foreign payroll) from diferent sides (ND, KKE, LAOS) will create a new party , they will working for the well being of Greece and Greeks .
I have to add some curious "phenomenes" about this riots , nobody quoted the flyers found outside Athen's university , they were wrote in ALBANIAN ! And what about the videos on Euronews where we can see rioters raised albanian flag ? What about Thessaloniki's riots and the visite of Tachi (kossovar prime minister) in this city 2 days before the begining of riots ? Like Cheekey said , everytime Greece took a decision opposite to our "allies" interests we got our "punishment". To all foreign people who criticize Greece i have to say , look at your door before to wanna cleanning other's garden ! Riots i can quote in the country to you all , and more violent that Greece's one !
Even if i understand the frustration of some young people , i think they were manipulated by leftist militants . I precise i have no political color and i live out of Greece since my childwood but i'm never lost contact with my homeland . I know the good and the bad sides of my people ! We are independent people , LEAVE US ALONE !! We no need your help good "friends" , we fought with you in all conflicts and the only gift we got is treasons from you ! All our problems are imported . Our neigbours have your "protection" while the still in ennemies side . You have short memory dear "friends" , you create troubles in our country for geostratigical aim despite the sacrifices that greek people doing !
Forget Greece and take with you all the renegades you pay !
Thanks by advance !

foreign

#1407
I am not advocating "poverty and unemployment". I am only suggesting that societies and individuals should live within their means. Is there a chance that Greeks demand from their government a standard of living that the country's resources simply cannot support or provide? I insist on the $5 coffee, because a couple of generations ago the issue was the price of feta. George Papandreou Sr. was accused by the opposition of raising the price of feta from 3 drachmas a kilo to 24 drachmas. And that was in 1964, and feta was the standard, not the frappe. Obviously you have come a long way. There is practicality in my suggestion too. A reduced consumer demand, more likely will bring prices down. The current downturn in America has sent inflation in a nose dive simply because people have reduced spending on non-necessities.
I don't claim that Greeks "often protest for no good reason". I only state the obvious, that they protest constantly, and this much you agree, to the point that protest has become a way of life. I am sure the tobacco growers have a good reason to block roads when their government subsidies are reduced. Growing tobacco is their livelihood. But should the government subsidize cancer? On the other side of the extreme, I wonder if the central government should be involved in direct disputes with the installers and maintenance workers of ....elevators, or determine operating hours for retailers, grocery stores, barber shops etc., regulate sales and the such. Let's get serious. Forget about me for a moment and tell me what do you want (besides "protesting"), more government or less government? A free market economy or a subsidized economy? Either choice comes with its drawbacks.
If I understand you correctly, you envision something larger down the road, with what happened or happening only the beginning. The pursuit of happiness is a human prerogative, the Americans include it in their constitution. How one defines 'happiness' is a different story. But I strongly suggest that one is aware of one's limitations. For the time being Greeks have showed the world that they know how to destroy. That was the easy part of the the plan, if there is a plan as you imply. I hope soon you will show the world that you know how to build too, even if this might prove more difficult. I will be the first one to applaud you, because I honestly wish the Greeks well.

PS. I didn't know that Alexis father was a bank manager. I was referring to the family jewelry store in Voukourestiou, reportedly being destroyed during the riots.

Marvellous, I don´t know about this street poetry. I think in Greece, the origin of Western Culture and the Fake Democracy, and now the Fire of Delos give us the prophecy of future. The future is now. The people is in the street. Come on

I haven't implied there is a plan or a greater scheme, i don't think there is, but I do think that to judge demonstrations based on whether they're futile is not always relevant, for the reasons I explained.

Personally I stand for more government, but I do think that we're past the point of even these simple ideological issues (however important they are) when it comes to Greece. I simply want a better government, even if there'd be less of it against my wish. This is the worst one of a series of governments which have brought the country to its knees. What's important to consider (in relation to uproar and protest too) is that perhaps for the first time in this country's history there isn't any hope for a better future. Everyone knows that it's only going to get worse, so what do you do? As current politics and economy are and have been since the societies of control have been established, one feels completely powerless to do anything in order to change something/anything. It often feels like the last power a citizen has to change anything is to join forces with others and protest. Of course some others will be there for other reasons, at times completely different from yours, but that's characteristic of any civil movement.

Anyway, like you, I do not pretend to have a comprehensive understanding -let alone a solution- of a problem so broad and deep, but I do think that when protests die out, that will be the moment when the country will shut down completely. It's probably going to happen anyway; I think in 5 years they'll pull down the shutters and declare that Greece is shut/finished/bankrupt/past. some of us will remain there in a government-less state of barbarism and with wilderness increasing around us, while others will migrate looking for a new life somewhere else, maybe Albania, who knows?

"....but I do think that when protests die out, that will be the moment when the country will shut down completely." Interesting thought, something like "I protest, thus I exist", or "As long as I protest, I hope"! When I wrote about the love affair the Greeks have with protests, I didn't realize how deep this feeling was. But Greeks are not alone, believe me when I say so, in expecting something less than a better future. Other wealthier countries reached the same conclusion long before you. Ironically, what you are lamenting is the end of consumerism the way we knew it, rather than a standard of living. It was good while it lasted but now it's time for investing rather than spending. With all the ideological sugar coating and labels that rarely reflected realities, the Greeks lived in a US/EU subsidised dream that was not theirs to control. Now it's time like everybody else to bite the bullet and reinvent your society. If America is forced to do so, I don't see why not Greece. I don't think your road will end up in Albania or the other Balkans, but bear in mind that if you are in a better position than they are today is due to the fact that the monarch-fascists defeated the Republican Army 60 years ago (I am saying this, and forgive me for doing so, with a good dose of sarcasm and fully aware of your contradictions and peculiarities when it comes to understanding what you are vs. what you think you are).

l love greeke people

I agree with george spelios, there is no future for this generation in greece. So, the fact that somebody defaced a statue or burned the christmas tree, is not to be used to judge the youth. We have more serious problems, than a sprey attack against a statue... Moreover the actions where thousand this december, and still go on. It is more important to think why the greeks protest against all this, not if you agree or not with them

Well, you're right when you say that other countries have faced this situation -in fact, most of them have and still do- and you're right that our society needs to be reinvented altogether, but what I can't see is any infrastructure or resources that could carry this change forward. What is Greece going to base its economy on? Foreign oil?

I'm well aware that we're better off than Albania or Romania because we didn't join the Eastern Block, but that's down to circumstances and historical events that followed (and not least due to the war that America had waged against the Eastern alliance -that war was merciless and continued to be so, even when their demise was imminent and this harshness unnecessary). Had I been alive back then (or in any given chance) I'd have joined the republican army. Every time.

I don't agree that my lamentation is on the end of consumerism; this is not altogether wrong, but certainly a very one-sided view.

The comment on our deeply rooted love for riots is quite funny, I'll give you that. So which country are you from?

@ fed-up: "that the monarch-fascists defeated the Republican Army 60 years ago "

What's your reasons to call "monarch-fascists" one side and "Republican army" the other one ? I think y're not aware of Greece's istory or you have "special" political color ! Maybe you ignore that the so called "Republican army" wont to partition Greece for communism's benefit . Are you really informed about greek history or you repeat what bittered elders said ? My humble opinion is they were the worse renegades of Greece's history ! Maybe the same political color is behind this troubles , that's why you defend this kind of violence ? I'm not sure it is the solution ! Youth seam to understood what's wrong with trouble makers anyway and staying far away from them ! Greeks are "hot blood" people but not so stupid , only unmaturity making them react like this (except the real trouble makers and murderer) . I guess with the right informations they will open the eyes and give the right "feedback" .
I will asking you where y're from like onegin , can you reply ?

#1416
In quoting me, you stop short of including the qualification of my "offending" sentence. Please read it again. It was meant to be sarcastic in its entirety, and this much I say! The monarchists were as much 'fascist' as the republicans were 'democratic'!

#1415
You spare me the effort of further elaborating on the subject by declaring your support for more government, and then your retroactive desire to have joined the Republican Army then, or something similar now. I respect your idealism (and theirs), but their futility (Stalin had already allocated Greece to Great Britain at the expense of Poland) proved disastrous by adding a few more years of war then, while now the fight is not for a 'new world order' but rather for a standard of living that your national resources cannot afford.
In any case here is my two cents worth of 'wisdom' in a nutshell.
a. Know what you are worth.
b. Live within your true means. If you are poor, acknowledge your poverty.
c. Set realistic goals rather than unsustainable desires spiced up with emotions and hollow bravado.
d. Prioritize your goals and show patience.
e. In the absence of natural resources or significant industrial infrastructure, utilize your human resources, especially the ones who were forced by your corrupt ways to find expression aboard.
f. Fight corruption under any disguise, be that in the form of "dexterity" or in the form of "compassion".

PS. Someone here poetically called the years 1944-1974 "stone years". The expression, frequently used in Greece doesn't really mean much in itself, so I take it to be something like 'suspended animation'. If so, let me point out that, wars and dictatorships not withstanding, those were your most productive years, your finest hour, when you put Greece on the map with your achievements. Come Pasok in the 80s it all came down to the 'bania tou laou' while the leader and his entourage of kolakes, jesters, sycophants and pallakithes were designing your future in Eluda.... Now, that is "sad" , onegin.

My own #1417.
Please make that "...find expression abroad".

*1417
Regarding your life wisdoms, no offense intended, but to me they are pseudo-wisdoms, resembling Socratic 'truths' in a city of Athens that didn't need them, but were nevertheless, and against their better judgement, fooled by them. a-d and f (the ones refering to a person's life) are the path not to self-knowledge as you'd have it, but to a pseudo-Christian existence whereby you are thankful to those that deprive you not only of your material ambitions, but most importantly, of your hopes and dreams, in short, of your being (as a projection in the future). In other words instead of 'the pursuit of happiness' which you have mentioned before, you advocate being content within a state of unfairness. Compassion, whether you look it up in a dictionary or you derive it from Dostoevsky, is not a fighting tool, that much we know. Dexterity, in the context you have placed it, is quite ambiguous or, rather, too vague.

By the way, do you know what you are worth? This is not to offend you, this is to say do you know anyone who knows what they're worth? I know a lot of people who I sometimes think of as worthless, but I don't know anyone who think they're worthless themselves. It's funny you start with this point, as if you or I or anyone can claim to possess this self-knowledge.

'Acknowledge your poverty'. I take it that you're not poor. It'd be hard for you to live with that 'wisdom' of yours if you were.

Point e (referring to a state's/society's improvement and curiously mixed with the rest of your points) is not specific enough, it could mean anything.

Regarding 1944-1974: there was a civil war in the beginning of that period, a dictatorship at the end, and in-between mostly a state where you would either vote with some people next to you making sure you voted for the 'right' party, or you'd be given one ballot, or, if you were in the army or police you'd go voting together with your lieutenant. To state that these years were our finest hour is like saying Thatcher was the best thing that ever happened to Britain. I discern a tendency in your comments, to value economic growth more than democracy. I agree with almost everything you say about Pasok, but I can't overlook the fact that in the 80s we had more of a democracy than in the 50s.

I think we've gone the full circle and we're now back to the same argument: I get the impression you'd do away with democracy -or at least with a lot of the citizen's rights which are the basis of a true democracy, even a corrupt one- if that presented an opportunity for economic progress. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong.

PS. I declared no desire -especially not retroactive, these are your words. My statement that I would have fought with the Communists was a hypothesis of I would have done if I lived then, not by looking back now. By saying 'every time' I meant that I'd fight against fascists and monarchs every time, simple as that; i think you read more into it than there is. So let's not discuss this, because there isn't anything in it. I tried to imply this before, by saying I'd have a better government full-stop, even if it meant less government. As it is, we have less government where we need it and more government where there's no need for it, I'll spare you examples you can easily figure out.

PS2. At this point I'll ask you to tell me where you're from. Not for me to pigeonhole you, but I have shared this info with you, so I'd expect the same if we are to carry on with this discussion

Down with this farse of system called democracy!!! It´s the end of the lies and all these old promises about freedom are certainly dead. The freedom is not a consolation prize in the middle of a vote circus, is not a pretty thought in a worker´s mind, freedom is not civil obedience. Let´s destroy this "our" right now, violence is just a way, not the only one, but it works to terrorize those who terrorize our lives day by day.
Mi greetings and best wishes to the young people in Greece: birthpace of the Anarchy

#1417 @ fedup : Maybe i didn't got the sens of your irony because english in not my first language ! But please let greeks become greeks again by themselves . We no need "advices" and intrusions in our way of life ! All our problems are imported ! We have education and basis enough for recover our real identity and that's certainly not what we seen in streets ! Everybody point out Aleksandros (i don't mean it's vain) but nobody point the real reasons of this troubles ! We entered in a system not so suitable for us , EU and USA are not the right model for Greece , radical liberalism and capitalism are opposite to our way of life (all radicalism indeed) . The other problem is the "plans" that our "friends" and "allies" have for Greece in a near future . Have i to remember Mr Kissinger's speach about Greeks ? Even, the so-called greek, Papandreou said "Better to have some less acre of land even if we are the owners and sleeping well that keep this land and have the danger of some unexpected action from our neighbours"!!! Good patriot indeed ! With other renegades on CIA's payroll , like SYRIZA(a chance maybe they were the major adepts of riots) and RAINBOW , we are well served ! CIA's office in Athen is the biggest one just after Cairo's one all around mediteranean sea and have even professional killers according to US Senate Committee ! Their problems are most the economical and strategical collaboration that Karamanlis took with Russia than some "humanistic" action for citizen rights ! "They" want actual govenerment collapse for put the puppet Papandreou on leadding again ! Everytime Greece moving against US interest she got her "punishment". Once again , leave us alone !

PS: like onegin i ask you again , where y're from ? What's your problem about ? Personaly i'm greek and i live to Belgium !

If you talk about the uprising of december in greece and end up to talk about the war of '44-'49, the most probable is that you don't know or not understand what is realy hapenning here. i'm not saying that this conversation is worthless, i'm really interested in your opinions, as they are written here. But now there is no foreign power that is trying to take over the country, nor a political party that is trying to take the power via these riots.

the fotos are not showing the real situation (although some are really nice :) ), but are just some moments of some riots that ocured during the huge demonstrations and actions of the people...

No need to spend time with my 'wisdom'. I pre emptively placed it in inverted commas. Reminds you of "Socratic truths"? Maybe I should be flattered, but I never claimed the truth for myself, at least not exclusively. But why waste your time with my sophisms when you could indulge yourself in an abundance of modern Greek neologisms? Stone years, protest concerts, symbolic seizures and road blockades....it's the farmer's turn today to prove that Greece is still alive (and shut down). The day after Obama asked the 'Amerikanakia' for unity, sacrifice and responsibility "in the face of crisis". Layoffs are announced globally on a daily basis by the tens of thousands. In Greece, 120 jobs are lost in Ahayia, and the GESEE boss issues a warning to the country's elected prime-minister to interfere on behalf of the affected, or else! Yeah, what do others know about poverty. Like most everything else, Greeks have invented poverty too. Before we are completely lost in our own words, please take one more look at the preceding pictures and outfits the of the protesters. I appreciate your civility, but I can't follow you in your arguments. As the Greek saying goes, "Greeks are what they claim to be". Well, if you are poor , then start living the part. That was my point.
PS. No need to continue with this discussion if a party has reasons not too.

#1422 @ georges: It is true this events occured other demonstrations but please go to "GreekAmericanNewsAgency.com" and check some documents there(i guess you can read greek) ! I don't agree with you about external plan , some knew about troubles longtime before ! Please check out the site and tell me your opinion !

*1423
I answered to you with reference to your own comments and arguments and you went on to fill a page with random facts and sarcastic comments (completely irrelevant to my positions as I've stated them). Out of the 4 'neologisms' you mention, I haven't used a single one (you're one to talk about misquoting) in any of my postings. You are the one who just used them, so maybe you should begin to wonder if it's you imposing your cliches on us and not vice versa.

I know very well what your point was about poverty, no need to rephrase it. Since you did, rather unequivocally, I'll rephrase my comment too: regardless of nationality (and of what your sarcasm that Greeks invented poverty suggested -as if anyone here said that), the only type of person who tells poor people to start living the part is the person who has never known poverty and can't empathize with poor people (in your case, not even sympathize) . It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

Ok, so you don't want to say where you're from, surely something you're embarrassed about for reasons only you can know. I asked you in a completely friendly manner and without intending to use this against you (it would be irrelevant to the discussion anyway). Then you posted another comment starting all over again with your "Greeks do this and Greeks do that", continuing to force-feed us with your stereotypes, sweeping generalizations and prejudice, which are hard to tolerate even for a person who's not proud to be Greek, like myself. It's easy to see you don't want to say where you're from because you fear you'll get the same treatment from other people, whom you've been indulging in giving it to all this time.

You're right, no need for this discussion to go on; you've become too random in your arguments and too defensive, probably in the reverse order.

Speech to R***** Club, March 2008

My wife and I are delighted to be with you this evening and to given the opportunity to address you.
Some of you will not know that I have lived in this country for over thirty years and brought up my family here. First and foremost i am a Greek citizen, with the good fortune of having a home away from home in this wonderful country. We have deep roots here; they extend to...., my great, great grandmother.

I debated whether to tackle the theme which is quite popular lately in every club corner and every speech hall. Dare I deliberate on fragility of world economy in front elite of business connoisseurs? I appreciate that i am addressing an audience of experts, however, i hope an outsider's perspective will be a fresh one.
There are so many innovative businesses throughout the UK, and it has been a privilege to see so many of them flourish and prosper during my time here.

HAKUNA MATATA

StarSailor NYC

StarSailor NYC

It had to become personal, it always does! For starters, you compared me to ....Franco and Mussolini (#1404) and I took it in stride. In retrospect I wonder why was I spared further comparison to Stalin as well! He was not a ....conservative like me, I suppose! And you appropriately finish it with my "random facts", my "pseudo-wisdom", my "pseudo-Christian existentialism", all being "relevant" in your book. I don't know how "empathetic" or "sympathetic" to the poor you may be, after you logically concluded that I am neither, but I am sure that neither of us resides permanently in one of the islands of the 'agoni grami', out of sheer compassion for the poor of course. "Surely" there must be "something embarrassing" about my country of origin, why shouldn't I volunteer this "irrelevant" information, especially after your brave declaration of your non-pride "to be a Greek" (is this synonymous to shame? Don't have to be so dramatic!). Who knows, maybe I am a Greek after all, and I didn't know it! You read through me though, "fear of undergoing the same treatment from other people" must be my underlying "irrelevant" reason to avoid what appears to be your self-professed irrelevant 'Greek' curiosity (there, I said it again!) to know all about the man sitting next to you in the train compartment. What I am trying to say is that I am in this for the ride, and not to 'get acquainted' with fellow passengers. As a courtesy to you, let me remind you that the very topic of this blog is "2008 Greek riots", and it is an open forum. What one writes or doesn't write is one's own choice. How one responds is also one's own choice. Interesting that the concept of 'debating societies' and what one could learn from them, is not a familiarity in a country where EVERYBODY loves to talk.
We both agree then that there is "no need for this discussion to go on", definitely because I and I alone, how could it be otherwise, "have become too random in my arguments and too defensive", although I would "probably reverse the order". Not to save face, but because after you spent most of your time painting my arguments 'offensive', you close with me on the defense!
For whatever it is worth, it was nice talking to you. But now it's time for you to find another 'villain'.
PS. Enjoy the ADEDY protest de jour on Thursday.

Well ! No one reply to my comment about "GreekAmericanNewsAgency.com" ! Hope much of you(at least those who can read greek) will going to check out this website and the relative links ! Much people speak for nothing here and occur the real problems of Greece ! Those who were in power for decades and they have destroyed the country, are as saviors now!

Hurra the ANARCHY !

im happy that govermrnt is falling, the slave-holders! i'm from south serbia, and i complitely understend the situation. keep on, greek brothers, and viva la anarchia!
i would like you to answer me how it all started, because i don't trust
capitalist tv stations. anarchists from serbia suportes you!
PS: and send some photos

I wish that the American people would take a stand against corruption in their government... but instead we're just rolling over as they take away our rights, one at a time. It is a sad time we have ahead of us, the human race. All hell will break loose before too long, one way, or another.

Dimitri- Hurra in your ass!
Dusan- I wanna see your family trying to manage in a corrupted anarchist environment. Your father (IF you have any) would be very proud trying (striving) to feed you, while you support anarchy.
I will tell you how it all started...it started decades ago. It was the greek politicians provoking greeks each time...by deceiving them..taking ther money,,..ppl's money..money that poor ppl have worked for....and those politicians were building big houses...they were bying yachts and the old ppl are still starving in Greece. This boy's death was only the last drop....or the firestarter...

hail the greek young ppl who defending our civil liberties the world should all learn from them and to reveal the real face of the fake democracy.
VIVA LA ANARCHISM

Fed-up you really have a false, overstereotyped, anachronistic and prejudiced opinion about the Greeks of today. There are many moronic people in Greece, but not more than in your average western country like the UK or France, the only difference with Greece is that the retards get to occupy high posts and even be in the gonvernment. That's the only difference and this is what needs a radical change, but in a country where centralisation has not yet been properly achieved and where the regional benefits always take precedence to the national ones, this is something very hard to achieve.

great job!
but not enought to smash down the power of plutocracy!
continue to work about it

i just wish those kids with NIKE and LEVI'S etc. would just go away and stop crying UNFAIR, WAAAAAAH, UNFAIR! don't they see the HYPOCRISY!?! they are making us look like idiots. when they burn down their own homes and break all ties with corporate greed and join the collective world poor and know what it is to feel you may not live tomorrow - I WILL WATCH THEIR BACKS - not until then, sisters and brothers, not until then.

People in Greece are violent because of Greek culture. It is erroneous to disconnect a discussion of cultural values from a discussion of the political state of Greece. Even if Greece is a police state (and one person being shot is not an example of this), it doesn't account for an entire group of people razing and burning their own country to the ground in two weeks. It seems to me that if you are a reasonable, calm and rational person, you will not do this. That Greeks would do this collectively speaks to their cultural values, their world view, their way of solving problems and so forth. They are not starving and oppressed. The system in place reflects the political values they actively support

AH AH AH AH///WHERE IS THE ANCIENT GREEK SPIRIT??THX A LOT THE GREEK GOVERMENT/////THX A LOT MR KARAMANLI......SHAME ON U......U ARE THE WORST PRIME MINISTER EVER,,,,,,,,,

the rioting wasn't cause of the murder.the murder of alex was the reason that the rioting started at this point.if it wasn't for the murder,then it would be just a matter of time for it to happen.stuff in europe n usa are all fucked up and all the wealth is ending in the pockets pf a few people.that leads to a lot of things that create a negative atmosphere.there have been riots in greece,italy,france and i don't know where else and if the english,the germans and the scandinavians wheren't the pussies they are,there would have been rioting there as well.can't you see that this is a game?going out on the streets was the right thing to do,but that was their plan from the beggining.send the youth out to kill each other while they make money out of it

The protesters in Athens (where I live) have shown to all of you what you should do when they want you to stay asleep. And believe me it is not only rage against the prime-minister but also against the new world order which have already started to show its results... Greeks (all except those who vandalized the small businesses who were given money to do it) were angry and they are still very angry with this society that the only thing that can provide through the f*** media is fear, madness and slavery. This is all what they teach our kids to do, to be slaves and that revolution and riot in greece was just the begging... God help us, the future of humanity and especially greek society is unsure...

ahhhhh soy el unico hispano pero tengoq decirlo asi nadie me entienda estan muy muy bnas esas fotos me parece q la realidad del asunto esta pasmado en esas fotos y A ATACAR Y A CONTRARRESTAR A EL SISTEM ANARQUIA POR DELANTE

tHIS IS SO SAD pLEASE DONT RUIN YOUR CONTREY iTS SO BEAUTIFUL .bELIEVE ME I LIV IN AMERICA AND WE ARE IN SO DEEP WE CANT GET OUT DONT DESTROY YOUR CONTREY ITS SO BEAUTIFUL I MAY ONLEY BE 12 BUT I STILL BELIEVE YOU CAN MAKE A CHANGE PLEASE YOU NEED TO MAKE A CHANGE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tHIS IS SO SAD pLEASE DONT RUIN YOUR CONTREY iTS SO BEAUTIFUL .bELIEVE ME I LIV IN AMERICA AND WE ARE IN SO DEEP WE CANT GET OUT DONT DESTROY YOUR CONTREY ITS SO BEAUTIFUL I MAY ONLEY BE 12 BUT I STILL BELIEVE YOU CAN MAKE A CHANGE PLEASE YOU NEED TO MAKE A CHANGE PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I never decide to write on such places but now I HAVE.... I am very happy that Youth In The World is not dead... I am very happy that some young people who wants to think diferently can find something different than CNN, FOX, ABC, SKY or ALL the others talking and writing... In my country, in past 20 years we had many (tooo many) crises, riots, bombing, wars... Any assault is stupid, for sure, but, sometime, one group of people, nation, continent is sooo much under depression, oppression by minority that there is NO OTHER way but... to arise... I deeply understand my greek friend and every day thinking on and supporting them..

you need to worry about savin ur contry

Very nice site!

wats good

burning a few cars and buildings doesn't destroy a country. Countries should be defined by their people. The people of Greece have shown their courage and passion in the streets. They built a country by fighting for what is right. Anyway construction and cleanup crews will have lot of new jobs. mindlessly being manipulated because your too either lazy or pathetic to actually get into the street and wreck shit. The media has caused this because they refuse to tell the truth or report on any thing that makes their bosses look bad. there is nothing radical about common sense. History has never betrayed the fact that this is how things are changed.

this is sad, but it was inevitable. the monetary system promotes competitive behavior, which will cause people to be oppressed by others. as this progresses, people get angry, steam builds up, and boom! shit happens. its time we move out of this outdated system and into a better one. more information can be found at thevenusproject.com and thezeitgeistmovement.com. the people on these sites can explain this far better than i can, please check them out.

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man?
Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand?
Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
-bob dylan
How many years can a mountain exist
Before it's washed to the sea?
Yes, 'n' how many years can some people exist
Before they're allowed to be free?
Yes, 'n' how many times can a man turn his head,
Pretending he just doesn't see?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

no joda marica deportado

ti disosmies lete oloi re.....

CZAD NOT DEAD!

Unfortunately the lumpenproletariat takes the banner of anarchism to justify their vandalic acts, Proudhon, founder of anarchism, and first self-proclaimed anarquist was against the class struggle and the violent revolution and was convinced that a real igualitarian society must be achieved through pacific means. Those calling temselves anarchists are just criminals that only soil the concept of "Anarchism". An answering to woodie, capitalim has proven to be a failure leading us to the current crisis. Capitalism is doomed.

Answering to Eugene. Proudhon was'nt the "founder of anarchism", he simply gave his view of what anarchism should be in his opinion... a comical opinion because you can't be so stupid to believe in the achieving of an equal society only with pacific means.. (beacuse, you know, the middle class don't stay to watch without doing anything).

Peace, as inforced by Government, is found on the trigger of a gun. The pigs will get what they deserve...

And being an American, I spit at the notion of trying to justify the atrocities my nation has committed. The men who have led my nation to the pit it's in now are just like the men ruling in Greece. The Shepherds watch over the sheep, but do they know that they are sheep too? Can they be expected to follow the rules any more than the citizens will? Do you really think your leaders are looking out for your interests? Think again.

It's only natural that the youth would stand up against a corrupt establishment. We're the future... do you really think we're going to sit back and watch the problems these pig-bastards have created fall into our own hands? No. We demand change. To change, we must take action. This globalized capitalism has gone too far, and it's time for revolution.

"If the kids are united, they will never be divided."
-Sham 69

R.I.P. Alexandros Grigoropoulos

We used to be free swinging from tree to tree living on nuts & berries before we called anybody master.

There is no such thing as innocence. We are all part of a system wether we like it or not, but at the same time we are the system wether we like it or not. Everybody wants to achieve happiness, different levels, different kind of happiness, some, only through absolute control while they cant control themselves. Well, fight for your rights while respecting everybody elses rights, never betray your ideas but always be open for new ones, fight for small daily things as you would for greater ideas and live free without being afraid of living alone with yourself. Never judge by the way you were taught or by the way you "feel", judge by the way you would like to be judged, objectively, I think we all take ourselves too seriously. Do not worry so much, we wont be around that long, but when we are here, we can at least try to make life easier for ourselves and for the people who live around us. Principle, respect, liberte, egalite, fraternite. We talk about politics, we talk about injustice, we talk about death of innocent people, but we never talk about our ignorance, our idleness, our guilt.

Hey. I get it. you all are mad that a loyal son of greece or whatever was killed. I understand that. but why, over three weeks AFTER the incident, 2-3 people attacked riot police, who are only doing their job to protect the public from violent rioters, using fully-automatic weapons and a fragmentation grenade? The man who shot this boy was part of the Special Guard, which is a completely separate unit from the Riot police. lives. Lives which could rely What is to gain by killing them except for more violence? All that has happened is that the tensions have escalated, and no one is safe in their cars. And what is the point of firebombing random cars, owned by people that had nothing to do with the shooting? All that did was to destroy people'supon those cars to get them to work, to make money to support their families? They had nothing to do with it, why bring them and their property into it. Yeah, you're pissed, but what gives you the right to destroy something which doens't belong to you? You people are stupid, and need to focus on bringing yuour country out of the Shi**er, not just trying to continue killing cops.

The article is a realistic view of the incident and the photos printed are natural.
Its excellent.
Lot of thanks

Dear whom it may consern,
theses pictures are outrages they are terifick.
thank you these pictures have put the light in my life thanking you Jessica melon.

thank the lord,
for whom it may concern the lord sent these pictures just for the loveing of these pictures gave me my life back thank you jesus for going out of your way to save me thank the lord....

for my eye my body and this pitty world for these pictures thank you god thank you for every thing i beg you for forgiveness R.I.P for the people that died for god aman xoxoxoxoxoxoxo thanks you

Mr. Fed-up/Greek bastard/Aris/omega, etc. please stop posting/trolling under multiple nicknames in an attempt to give the impression of a group of different people who are agreeing in everything and give credit to each other about how smart they are. It's very obvious that it is the same person and it is annoying.