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Progress on NASA's Constellation
NASA's Constellation program, established in 2005, continues its work toward the building the future of manned space exploration in the U.S. The first test flight of the Ares I-X rocket - a functional mockup of the actual Ares I rocket, similar in shape and mass - is scheduled for July, 2009. The stimulus bill just passed by the U.S. Congress will be sending an additional $1 billion to NASA, $400 million of which is for its manned space program. Engineers are now busy refitting old facilities, running tests, building the infrastructure and working towards a planned first launch of a crew to the International Space Station in 2014. Collected here are photographs of various parts of the Constellation program coming together, including parts of the Orion crew vehicle, the Ares I and Ares V rockets, and supporting systems. (31 photos total)
This schlieren photo from October 28th, 2008 depicts a wind tunnel test demonstrating air flow over the 0.34 percent scale model of the Ares V heavy cargo launch vehicle at Mach 4.5. Schlieren imaging is a diagnostic method used to visualize air flows with varying densities, widely used in aeronautical engineering to photograph the flow of air around objects. (NASA/MSFC)
In the hypergolic maintenance facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, a technician adjusts equipment during testing of the Ares I-X Roll Control System, or RoCS. The RoCS Servicing Simulation Test is to gather data that will be used to help certify the ground support equipment design and validate the servicing requirements and processes. In an effort to reduce costs and meet the schedule, most of the ground support equipment that will be used for the RoCS servicing is of space shuttle heritage. This high-fidelity servicing simulation will provide confidence that servicing requirements can be met with the heritage system.(NASA/Kim Shiflett) #
The Ares I launch vehicle's first stage is a single, five-segment reusable solid rocket booster derived from the Space Shuttle Program's reusable solid rocket motor that burns a specially formulated and shaped solid propellant called polybutadiene acrylonitrile (PBAN). The second or upper stage will be propelled by a J-2X main engine fueled with liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen. This HD video image depicts a test firing of a 40k subscale J2X injector at MSFC's test stand 115 on September 9th, 2007. #
Boeing Advanced Network and Space Systems material and process engineer Elizabeth Chu inspects the Thermal Protection System Manufacturing Demonstration Unit developed for NASA's Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle project on November 13th, 2007. Boeing Advanced Systems was awarded a contract to develop a prototype heat shield to protect NASA astronauts from extreme heat during re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere upon returning from lunar and low-Earth orbit missions. (Boeing Photo - Joe Olmos) #
On Launch Pad 39B at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, equipment is set up to continue erecting new lightning towers on November 25th, 2008. Each of the three lightning towers will be 500 feet tall with an additional 100-foot fiberglass mast atop supporting a wire catenary system. This improved lightning protection system allows for the taller height of the Ares I compared to the space shuttle. Pad B will be the site of the first Ares vehicle launch. (NASA/Tim Jacobs) #
An aerial view of the newly erected lightning towers on Launch Pad 39B at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The two towers at left and right contain the lightning mast on top; the one at center does not. At center are the fixed and rotating service structures that have previously served the Space Shuttle Program. In the foreground is the tower that holds 300,000 gallons of water used for sound suppression during a shuttle liftoff. (NASA/Kim Shiflett) #
In the Parachute Refurbishment Facility at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, the process of packing a colorful main parachute, slated for use on the Ares I-X test flight, is under way. The new parachutes are red, white and blue. The launch is targeted for July 2009 from Kennedy Space Center's Launch Pad 39B and will provide an early opportunity to test and prove hardware, facilities and ground operations associated with the Ares I rocket. (NASA/Jack Pfaller) #
In this HD video image, the first stage reentry parachute drop test is conducted at the Yuma, Arizona proving ground on September 9th, 2007. The parachute tests demonstrated a three-stage deployment sequence that included the use of an Orbiter drag chute to properly stage the unfurling of the main chute. The parachute recovery system for Orion will be similar to the system used for Apollo command module landings and include two drogue, three pilot, and three main parachutes. (NASA/MSFC) #
The mock-up of the Orion crew capsule used during the test of the parachute system for the recovery system of the Orion spacecraft on July 31, 2008 was severely damaged when a test set-up chute failed to properly inflate and caused the parachute system to fail. The failed parachute - called a programmer chute - was supposed to get the test vehicle set up to the correct test conditions. (NASA) #
A full-scale rocket motor the Orion Crew Module Jettison Motor - fires at the Aerojet facility in Sacramento, Calif on July 18th, 2008. This test will help in the development of NASA's Orion jettison motor that is being designed to separate the spacecraft's launch abort system from the crew module during launch. (Aerojet) #
In high bay 4 of the Vehicle Assembly Building at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, a worker applies a window decal on the Ares I-X mock-up crew module on February 10th, 2009. When fully developed, the 16-foot diameter crew module will furnish living space and reentry protection for the astronauts. (NASA/Tim Jacobs) #
"Nozzle side loads" are a major design consideration for rocket engine exhaust nozzles, and the J-2X engine is no exception. Side loads, or pressures exerted on the sides of the engine nozzle, are most severe during engine start as the rocket exhaust plume fills the nozzle, as well as at shutdown when the plume empties from the nozzle, pressing unevenly around the nozzle walls. Testing at the Marshall Center's Nozzle Test Facility enables Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne design engineers to characterize these side loads and apply this test data to computer analyses used to design the nozzle to withstand the side loads. (Joseph Ruf / NASA/MSFC) #
A convoy of trucks passes a launch pad as it makes the journey from Port Canaveral to the Vehicle Assembly Building's high bay 4 at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. The trucks carry Ares I-X upper stage simulator segments, wrapped in blue protective plastic. The simulator comprises 11 segments that are approximately 18 feet in diameter. Most of the segments will be approximately 10 feet high, ranging in weight from 18,000 to 60,000 pounds, for a total of approximately 450,000 pounds. (NASA/Cory Huston) #
Ares I-X simulated crew module and launch abort system flight hardware arrives at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida. This hardware will complete the nose of the rocket. Nearly 150 sensors on the hardware will measure aerodynamic pressure and temperature at the nose of the rocket and contribute to measurements of vehicle acceleration and angle of attack. The data will help NASA understand whether the design is safe and stable in flight. (NASA/Sean Smith) #
Inside the Vehicle Assembly Building's high bay 4 at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida, workers secure the cranes that are being used to offload Ares I-X upper stage simulator segments onto the floor. The segments arrived November 4th at Port Canaveral, Fla., aboard the Delta Mariner. (NASA/Cory Huston) #
Engineers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama completed first-round testing on Sept. 11, 2008 of a key motor for the next-generation Ares I rocket. The ullage settling motor is a small, solid rocket motor that will assist in vehicle stage separation and provide the forward motion needed to push fuel to the bottom of the fuel tanks during the launch to orbit of the Ares I rocket. (NASA/MSFC) #
Firing Room 1 of the Launch Control Center is shown, stripped of its old equipment in preparation for transforming it to support the launch operations for the Ares launch vehicles. The Shuttle Processing Transition Team has worked to decommission Firing Room 1, also known as FR1, for transfer to the Constellation Program. The transition includes removing all the computer systems currently in the room and installing new equipment, furnishings and software. The room was recently renamed the Young/Crippen Firing Room to honor Commander John Young and Pilot Robert Crippen in tribute to the 25th anniversary of the first space shuttle flight on April 12, 1981.(NASA/Jim Grossmann) #
In Firing Room No. 1 in the Launch Control Center at NASA's Kennedy Space Center, panels stretch across the floor in preparation for erecting equipment racks on May 1st, 2008. The refurbished firing room will support the future Ares rocket launches as part of the Constellation Program. The Launch Control Center firing room windows face the launch pads. (NASA/Kim Shiflett) #
Engineers began major refurbishment to the Marshall Center's Dynamic Test Stand in March 2008, removing the roof and lowering the 144-foot-high, 71-ton door. Marshall currently is making safety upgrades to the stand, overhauling the 200-ton derrick crane and installing a new electrical power system, restoring the facility to its Apollo-era capabilities in anticipation of full-scale Ares testing beginning in July 2011. The test program is expected to take approximately one year. (NASA/MSFC) #
Core components of the J-2X engine being designed for NASA's Constellation Program were installed on the A-1 Test Stand at NASA's Stennis Space Center near Bay St. Louis, Mississippi on September 20th, 2007. Tests of the components, known as Powerpack 1A, were conducted from November 2007 through February 2008. The Powerpack 1A test article consists of a gas generator and engine turbopumps originally developed for the Apollo Program that put Americans on the moon in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Engineers are testing these heritage components to obtain data that will help them modify the turbomachinery to meet the higher performance requirements of the Ares I and Ares V launch vehicles. (NASA) #
More links and information
Constellation Program - NASA Official site
Ares I - Wikipedia entry
Ares I-X - NASA Official site
This blogger might want to review your comment before posting it.
To Oliver J., comment number 41, the technician in photo #3 was wearing the thick gloves in the photo to simulate performing this task, which will actually be accomplished in a fully encapsulating suit with a hardline breathing air supply.
This was a dry run, and he only wore the gloves without the rest of the suit so that they could see if there would be any dexterity problems when working with the gloves. Believe me, the amount of safety gear he had on was more than enough for the hazardous chemical he was dealing with (isopropyl alcohol). You needn't worry.
For advocates of tax dollars going to NASA, that's great, since you value it so much, send more money; I'd rather mine be spent as I see fit.
For NASA employees living on the taxpayers' dime, I'm sure you think money spent on you is worthwhile, but ultimately it was coerced from the taxpayer. So there's not much difference from the old Soviet Union except their space program probably didn't kill as many cosmonauts as NASA did astronauts.
I spent 35 years, starting in 1964 at Downey Cal. with the build up of the Apollo hardware, and transfered to KSC in 1967 to work on the launch team thru the completion of the program. Staying on to work on the first 64 launchings of the SPACE SHUTTLE. I am totally blown away by the pictures I just saw. Makes me wish I were 50 years younger and could go to work on this latest program.
My best wishes to the testing and future flights.
..........IMPRESSIVE.................
I still think the rocket ships should learn from NASCAR and get sponsors and have decals on the vehicles. NASCAR pulls in a lot of money selling trinkets too.
Think how nice it would look with a big "Drink PEPSI" on the side of ARES
Just wondering... With all this talk about colonating other planets...
Has NASA looked into wether it's possible to conceive and give birth outside Earth's atmosphere? Is there any of "that" going on in the Space Station??
I'm sure finding voulanteers would be difficult... MsRcktGrl perhaps...?? ;-)
Totally mind boggling ! They can make so many things! I wonder what kind of jewelry they could make for me if I placed an order.
#70. "Sorry, but we need to be building massive solar and wind power plantations and a smart grid to carry the energy to the coasts. We need to be planting trillions of trees to sequester CO2. We need to be weaning ourselves off petroleum and coal asap. Don't people realize that we're on the brink of catastrophe?
Great photos, but c'mon.
Sure these programs provide jobs. But so what? We need people doing jobs that actually help ensure our survival as a planet. Outer space can wait. Our biosphere is quickly running out of time."
Where do you think the technology for these solar cells came from? And weaning ourselves off petroleum and coal...when's the last time you saw them burning gas or coal on the ISS? The space program is almost entirely responsible for footing the bill to start the development of clean technologies like the hydrogen fuel cells that power the shuttle and solar cells. And the batteries that power your electric car (if you care so much about the environment, you MUST own an electric car, right?!) would not be so small, light, and economical without the space program again footing the bill to make batteries light enough to launch on a rocket. If our biosphere is running out of time, why not take a peek at other planets for pennies on the dollar for the "group hug, we'll just print more money" programs and develop/advance technologies that can help out right here at home in the process?
Mooi waark !
All the pictures I have seen there is not enough diversity .
Especially at KSC, Fl. (none).
Having worked at "the Cape" for 15 yrs.-"59 to '74, it does my heart good to see the good work following on.
It should be pointed out to the general public that they wouldn't be enjoying their satellite tv's, cell phones, etc.. had it not been for our science developed during the previous space programs.
Great bunch of pics.
THERE IS NOTHING LIKE GOD CREATION
I was in a NASA meeting this morning with minorities playing major roles--software engineers and flight controllers--not very visible roles, but important nonetheless. Don't judge a program by a limited number of photos. That said, yes, we need for more minorities to CHOOSE to get a good education and rise in the ranks--the opportunities are there, for sure.
Seem many people do not realize the 100s of items the space program was essential in developing that created: new industries (jobs), energy source development (solar and battery technologies), personal things (microwave ovens, cell phones). Imagine if NASA had a few more dollars to do more research.
Energy crisis may longer exsist, wieghtlessness might help develop a cure for cancers. hmm
Thanks for sharing the intesting and great photos!
I will like to visit NASA someday!
Picture #5 looks a lot like some of the UFOs seen in recent years. Do you
suppose folks may have been seeing them undergoing some type of
re-entry testing?
I love these photos! I have quite a few fellow engineering friends employed by NASA around the country and this is very exciting. However, the ME's and CE's of the world are about to take space away from the AE's.
As a Civil and materials engineer, the promise of a space elevator sending payloads (manned or no) into space for 1/100th of the cost per pound (of a launch) is very exciting. Its now thought that the material and technological hurdles for the elevator will be overcome within the next decade, so I hope NASA is not planning a long service life for the constellation. ;)
I enjoyed all the pics. , all the comments , ( both by thinkers and nonthinkers )
Further comment by me would be incomprehendable .
thanx , G. L.
Thank God the Shuttle is finally going to go away. I love it (a lot!), but conventional launch systems make far more sense.
To the skeptics, this is how we test our strength. Sure, maybe there are some benefits to us (Armageddon anyone?), but more than anything else it keeps us fit and offers a way to pass down knowledge learned (often the hard way) to the younger generation. NASA can frustrate its own engineers at times, but by and large it does a good job preserving knowledge and giving us something to advance on.
Ares I and esp Ares V will be good Blue-State Rockets, built in Hurricane Katrina ravaged Louisiana. The enemies of Ares want to focus on lousy EELVs, and the candidate to take over Mike Griffins job wants to put the folks you see above out of work.
Lester Lyles is an Air Force hack. It was the USAF that botched STS, favored Titan III over the Saturns, etc. We need Mike Griffin back. Obama is anti-space. Support Ares V. It is better than EELVs or shuttle-C More photos here:
http://www.tallgeorge.com/projectconstellation2.php
http://www.tallgeorge.com/projectconstellation.php
http://www.safesimplesoon.com
Why go to the moon again? Why did Christopher Columbus set out to prove the world was round by attempting to sail to the far East? Why did Alexander set out to conquer the known world? Why oh why does man do anything? Better to sit back and live on the public dole, now that's really something. The world has gone through many, many, greast discoveries as well as "downturns" since man first took control of his (or her) environment! Till the end of time, they will do so, that's why? NASA is needed and performs admirably and contributed greatly to society. That's why, for you that question why? What have you or those on public dole or done for society?bailout
To all proponents of the coercive use of taxpayer money for something that you like (however noble) and to recipients of that coerced money (as you pat yourselves on the back):
To argue that all the technological good in society today is because of the space program or your work in it, ignores that which might have been. You don't know what would have happened with the money used for the space program if it had been invested in other endeavors-- endeavors voluntarily supported. Consider section III at this link: http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html
Also consider that the government does nothing efficiently.
"The ullage settling motor is a small, solid rocket motor that will...provide the forward motion needed to push fuel to the bottom of the fuel tanks..."
Yay! One of my favorite words, and the first time I have ever seen it in print! Ullage is the part of a container that isn't filled with what it's supposed to be filled with. So the ullage-settling motor pushes the fuel down so that it can go out the valves, and the air is pushed to the top of the tank. "Ullage-settling" should be hyphenated, but that's a small point.
I learned of ullage years ago from Tony Randall, when he'd appear on the Tonight Show and stump Johnny Carson with unusual words.
And for Carol (#99)...ACORN is not getting $4 billion. They're not getting anything in the stimulus package! They can apply for funding for projects just like any other agency, but there is no money dedicated to ACORN. Zero.
I am thrilled to see what America is doing as I have been dissappointed about our space future as the Shuttle Program winds down. I do believe we should continure to use the Shuttle even if compontents have lapsed their planned lifetime. We should use the Shuttle until it becomes a greater than nominal danger to our fellow American astronauts. I want my tax dollars to go to the space program to explore everything out there. Jim Ellis, Longwood, Fl
this is the best thing a tax dollar is ever used for... its great to see some progress visually, more money needs to be channeled to this and other projects like this. the space exploration pace needs to be elevated. In response to some of the other comments : USA will never solve world hunger issues, the millions of tax dollars we waste on unnappreciative countries that created thier own problems should be halted. We cannot help them any more then we could implement a selective breeding proscess based on intelligence. That would solve world hunger.
thats awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As an engineer for NASA for almost thirty years working in the "un-manned" part of NASA, i.e the scientific satilites, most people don't have the foggist idea of how NASA programs have advanced technology. Technology that everyone takes for grated! Just start with satellite TV and satellite weather. It was NASA and NASA contractors that develped the first satellites to transmit pictures from space (ATS-). It was NASA that develped the first satellites to measure the greenhouses gasses. It was NASA's technology that made possible the GPS systems being used today. How many million of jobs exist today that would not be were it not for the enabling technology that came (and continues to come) from the NASA Centers spread across this country? just perhaps your lively hood may depend on this technology. You can rest assure you standard of living does!!
the americans better spend there money on there economy !!!!!
I'm young, only in my 30s, but here's my opinion nevertheless: I'll gladly support anything and anyone that will keep humanity's oldest dream from fading away. We MUST reach for the stars! We must continue our progress. We must reinforce our chances of survival as a species.
So far, NASA has had the lead. I'm also glad to see R.A. Heinlein's old dream starting to take shape: private enterprise will soon go to space.
I'm not American, therefore I can speak less directly with my money. Instead, I use every method at my disposal (e.g. CPU cycles and bandwidth for distributed computing projects, subscriptions to USA science magazines, etc.) to help advance the science cause.
Because only this way will I be able to witness in awe what my parents had 40 years ago: humans leaving their footprints on another planet's surface! Go NASA!
To Sam #82 who thinks we "have no business out there":
It always appalls me to hear people say that we "have no business" doing things that expand our understanding of the universe and our capability as a species. If we had listened to small-minded individuals like yourself, we would still be living in the stone age.
The fact is, the resources on this planet are finite and they WILL run out eventually, no matter how frugal we become. When you combine this fact with the probability of an extinction level event (e.g. asteroid strike) occurring over the next few millenia, it becomes clear that spreading out into space is the only viable option for ensuring the long term survival of the human race.
Please people, try to look past the end of your nose and see the big picture before spouting off about how "useless" the manned space program is.
#146
The fact that you are appalled by my comment is strange... Unless you misread or read too much into it, which your misquote indicates.
Einstein understood more about the Universe than most and he never once stepped beyond the confines of our planet... All through the power of IMAGINATION which, as he said, is far more important than knowledge.
It's clear where your stock bottoms out...
I do hope that you and everyone like you gets to go to another planet and stays there! You have my full support and Earth's I'm sure!!
Wonderful Program,
I would prefer we spend money on hunger and medical needs here on Earth. We only have so many resources to spread around. We have two wars going on, a very sick economy and tons of other problems.
#147:
I quote from your previous post: "We have no business out there... We would be better served in focusing our creative minds on sustainability of our existance here."
What, exactly, have I "misquoted"?
And, rest assured, those of us forward thinkers who are courageous enough to expand the limits of human existence will be happy to leave you "flat earthers" behind as soon as the option becomes available.
How much of your tax dollars go to space:
308,000,000 people in the US (IRS site)
134,373,000 tax returns filed (43% file) (IRS site)
99,880,000 actually paid taxes (32% pay) (IRS site)
For a 17,000,000,000 dollar budget,
Those of you who actually pay taxes, on average it costs you a whopping $170.00 (assuming a flat tax rate which in not the case. Taxes range from 10% up to 35% or more) for the YEAR. That's right, $3.25 of your taxes every week goes toward ALL of NASA. Oh, but wait there are 69,000 folk that work at NASA (NASA site) either as government employees or as contractors, and odds are really pretty good that all of them pay taxes, just like you. Hmmm, so they contribute 11,672,000 of that 17 trillion budget. Some of NASA's budget goes to education ($153,000,000) (House Science Committee site).
The past 7 years of the Iraqi war cost 604 billion (unadjusted dollars). The past 50 years of NASA (excluding 2009) cost 416 billion (unadjusted dollars).
(Wikipedia)
One year's national budget is 2.7 trillion. Nasa's budget is 0.6% of the national budget.
If Nasa's budget was distributed equally to the 308 million people in the US, everyone would get $55.
Manned space flight is ultimately about long-term earth-born species survival (especially but not limited to humans).
Robots cannot accomplish this work as there are too many factors involved in space survival that only a human going into space can reveal.
Right now, all our eggs are in one basket, one planet. All the species throughout the ages before us relied on Earth alone supporting them, and they are all gone, extinct except for the descendents of what vestiges of animal life managed to just barely get by.
What good are all the social programs in our country, all the poverty and hunger in the world solved, all the global warming halted, all the short-sighted self-focused libertarians being freed of their taxes, all the "real-job" factories making jeans and pointless gadgets being shored-up, all the new-age loons caterwauling about the power of imagination, if just after accomplishing all this, we are destroyed utterly by an asteroid hitting the earth? We only have so much time before this *will* happen again.
Who will be left to praise our civilization's great social accomplishments then?
The futile waste of money is that which is *not* spent on space exploration and colonization. The madness is how many sufficiently intelligent people there are on our planet who don't pay any attention to geological history.
ref post 150. I put in a typo near the end of that second paragraph. Nasa's budget is 17 billion not trillion. My brain was jumping ahead to the national budget.
Ref post 151. While I am a space enthusiast, I must say I can only agree with you in part. If we don't put money into things such as social programs and education, and protecting our environment, there won't be any civilization worth saving. But I would like to see NASA get a larger budget. If it costs those of us who pay taxes 170 dollars for the year, then just $30 more a person would give NASA an additional 3 billion.
Just as an aside, Only 4 things get less that NASA: the dept of: Transportation, Treasury, Interior and Labor. Mandatory spending eats up 2/3 of hte budget (soical security, Medicare, medicaid, children's insurance, unemployment, welfare, & interest on the national debt. Of the discretionary spending (1.14 trillion) Nasa gets 1.5 % while the DOD gets the most at 42%, then the fight against terrorism at 13% and Health and Human Services get 6%. All the others (including NASA, obviously) get less than Health and Human services.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2008
Great pictures & comments But we need to control the junk up there as we found out with the collision last week.
#149 & #151,
I have not once in any of my comments insulted anyone...
I have no idea what a "libertarian" even means... or "new-age loon" for that matter.
Nowhere in may comments have I stated that space exploration/study should be eliminated. I do have an issue with "PEOPLE" colonizing other planets when we are failing miserably in colonizing the one we have here right now!! For proof of that, you only need look slighly beyond your nose.
I have been to the Biosphere near Tucson Arizona. That taught us a lot about the extreeme difficulty, if not impossibility, of colonating other planets and that thing was built here on Earth... Fortunately, that was funded by a wealthy philanthropist which is how NASA should be funded.
As far as our days being numbered here, there is absolutely no doubt about that... All is right with the Universe!!
So go sell crazy on Mars... We're all stocked up here!
For advocates of the use of taxpayer money for NASA because you like the program and think it's worth it to force others to pay too: How many proponents are sending in extra money? How many great humanitarians working at NASA to advance our technical prowess are doing it gratis?
Arguing that it is only a small amount per taxpayer relative to other programs is: 1. misleading because we don't pay it as a head tax--the income tax is graduated.
2. irrelevant to whether it is just--it's still coerced. That NASA workers pay taxes is a non-sequitur, thieves also spend their money in the economy--that is not the question. (Previous post #138 and #118)
In response to post 152.
Though my position in post 151 was stated in the extreme, I do believe there are many things to care about in our society other than long-term survival. However, I do want to make the point that if we do not spend a sufficient amount of money on social programs, education and environmental protection we would not die as a civilization, we would only have less of a civilization, and a more problematic one.
On the other hand, if we don't spend a sufficient amount of money and effort on manned space flight and colonization, then when the next extinction-level asteroid collision inevitably occurs, we won't have any civilization left at all.
There is a marked level of severity between the two outcomes. And, there is no doubt that the latter condition is being all but ignored in favor of an almost total focus on short-term problems that we won't even have the benefit of working on and improving should we be caught without developed off-world survivability at the moment of a catastrophic collision.
I simply do not understand why so many people think that we as a country or as a Western World have to be responsible for solving all the world's social problems prior to solving the problem of humanity's ultimate survival. Why is it that so many otherwise thoughtful people still think that manned space flight is some kind of overgrown rich-kid's toybox or some expensive tax-paid hobby? It isn't about scientific research for knowledge's sake, inspiring young minds, exploring the great metaphysical unknown, shoring up national security, or doing something cool or anything else that goes into being an "enthusiast" for space, albeit these maybe favorable side-effects of a sufficiently funded manned spaceflight program.
Ultimately, it's about being clear as to what priorities are more important to the survival of humanity and what other earth-born species we carry with us. If a person doesn't care about these things, why care about social problems that will be solved very quickly and simply by the total destruction of our species from a catastrophic collision?
@Paul Snyder, post #153
Was it REALLY "space junk" that fell on the Earth on Valentine's Day ? Why not investigate the "chinese lantern" or "weather balloon" theories that where so convenient in the past ?
Near the same day, two submarines collided, from France and UK ... my brain keeps asking why such GOD-FORSAKEN collision mechanisms are in place, if the official story is anywhere near the TRUTH of what happened !!!
Beware of "space junk", both high up in Space and lurking at the bottom of Ocean Floors; global "heating" and "exhausted" money supply sure have some strange effects, lately ... Or would it all be part of Obama's side-effects ?
@Brandur, post #151 : We will be remembered only through LEGENDS, just as Rama is - investigate His Bridge connecting India and Shri Lankha if you don't believe ...
Be prepared for what is to come : Read, learn, understand, experience, AND THEN believe in the Holy Scripture's God/ Allah/ Yahveh/ Buddha/ Brahma/ ... !!!
In response to Post 155.
If you want to work towards changing our tax-based society into a different system, be my guest. That's your fight. I honestly don't care whether we have a tax-based system or a libertarian one. I will lobby in either towards the proper use of our society's wealth to right priorities. The problem is that most people in their short-sighted thinking don't realize that manned space flight is in the interest of their survival and that of their descendants. And, the job of enlightening people to that fact is the same problem regardless of how wealth is distributed in our nation. So, frankly, I am not going to spend my effort focusing on changing the system of taxes in our country, I am going to spend my effort focusing on long-term human survival (a.k.a. manned space flight and colonization) within whatever system we have.
Ah. What money can buy!
re 155.
I don't want to support many uses of welfare, but I am forced to pay taxes to support a large number of 2nd and 3rd gneration welfare receipients sitting around on their duffs while I work 40+ hours a week to help fund their laziness, or some of the HUD programs where folk have newer and nicer places to live per dollar than what people who are at least trying to make a living can afford.
If you truly feel space is not worthy, then please cease and desist using all benefits from the space agency. Tell your fire firefighters they may no longer use their Nomex to protect them in a fire, that all your neighbors and perhaps even you must stop using your satellite dish, that the hospital can no longer use its improved medical imaging, turn in your smoke detector, too, please. Do you use any cordless tools? Trash them. Your forced dollars helped create those too. You like those invisible braces. Nope, pitch them. No joystick controllers for you or your kid's video games. Plastic bottles? No good sir, you must return to glass and metal, or at least, pay much much more for the plastic ones because cheap liquid crystal polymers are no longer available for use. Anybody using the NASA/DeBakey heart pump? Demand they hand it over and go die without complaint. Those were tax dollars taken from you! Ever flown on a Boeing 777? Cross it off your list too. That new radiant barrier insulation for homes? Sorry, can't have that and its energy savings. No LEDs either. Okay, just go to the below webpage and please turn in all items listed there and please tell all your local industries that use any of NASA's technology that it was your tax dollars spent on space and you don't approve and so they can't use it anymore.
http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000269.shtml
An incidently yes, I do contribute extra money to space supporting ventures. Just as I support the American Cancer Society and a few other charities.
If we were more “friendly” to the rest of the world, and didn’t go abroad to “kill the guy that may want to kill my dad”, we would not spend $145.2 billion (+45.8%) on Global War on Terror and would not need $39.4 billion (+18.7%) for Department of Veterans Affairs and $34.3 billion (+7.2%) for Department of Homeland Security. $17.3 billion (+6.8%) for NASA is not enough for what they are contributing to this country and the entire human race! Read more so you will know NASA is not just going to a remote planet digging rocks. Many of your daily life luxuries and medical advantages are originated from NASA human space flight research.
BTW, why do we bailout for people who couldn’t afford to buy a nice big house but bought them anyway?! Get them out of those houses!
I think the Space Program is great; but.................to think we're ever going to reach the stars is total insanity. The closest star is ~ 4 light years away. Man was designed to live on earth and I believe the creator intended for it to stay that way - hence; the astronomical distances between the stars. Don't try and compare it to crossing the oceans when people thought the world was flat. We'll make it to Mars, no doubt, but going to other solar systems is flat out impossible. Even flying at the speed of light - 4 years?....and if you hit a grain of sand at that speed??
In response to Post 158:
The "right priorities" and what is in the interest of one and of one's descendants certainly is the question.
Is it a heavy burden for you to carry: knowing so much about what is in the interests of the human race and on what their survival depends?
Perhaps you are so preoccupied with such lofty considerations that you miss that there are other ways of achieving goals than by force? And that those other ways might be more efficient and more effective.
@ 162:
If you think that YOU KNOW BETTER whats REALLY in the best interest of the human race, please go on...
The most fatal (man-made) catastrophes in human history were all results of people (lunatics) who thought that they knew better... that they were the only ones, the true ones, acting in the best interest for all..
"Perhaps you are so preoccupied with such lofty considerations that you miss that there are other ways of achieving goals than by force? And that those other ways might be more efficient and more effective."
More efficient and more effective... yeah and WHAT OTHER WAYS would that be?
Do you honestly believe that space flight would exist (by now) just by "private" effort? Yeah i know, the government can't be effective.. because, well, it just can't be, right? Its, like, a nature law or something... too bad that in the last 5000 years, since becoming of (organized) human civilization, everyone failed to produce proof of the contrary.
I am really amazed at where some of these comments have gone.
I wanted to be an astronaut when I was a kid. With that in mind, I got degrees in math and joined the AF and have worked in support of the military and civilian space programs for over 20 years. That isn't everyone's dream so those that never dreamed of stepping outside of their own comfort zone need to understand that not all of us are content to live this moment for the rest of our lives. For new inventions to happen, for new developments to occur, for discoveries or advancements to happen, we as the human race must step away from the comfort of NOW in every discipline, every day.
My sons both want to be astronauts now and are both focusing their attentions on science and mathematics in school. They are racing each other to be the first men on Mars. Even if they don't become astronauts, I see they are already questioning the world around them and trying to understand how to change things for the better. I am proud of them both no matter where these quests lead them because they aren’t happy with things as they are, they want more and they understand that for change to happen, they have to do it themselves.
The spirit of exploration and wanting to go to places that have never been explored before is a kind of faith all its own that makes man an amazing animal. We aren’t content with the environment the way it is so we find ways to change it. It drives people to do amazing things! It takes them beyond the horizon where others believe they will “fall of the end of the Earth.” It drives them to climb mountains that “can't be climbed.” It gives them the passion to find cures for “incurable diseases.”
The moon and local planets used to be beyond our reach – not anymore. I just wish I could be the one to travel to the next nearest solar system but I will have to leave that for my great, great, great grandchildren when the stars are technologically within their reach. And I KNOW they will do it because that drive to change and explore our own environment is so important to who we are and our survival. And if our progeny do not reach out to the stars, then our race will shrivel and die on this small planet. Even recent history shows that animals that do not adapt to change and opportunity quickly become extinct. How we collectively embrace this opportunity is out choice. But it will be the explorers among us that will step into the dark in spite of the naysayers if – when the opportunity presents itself.
CCCCCOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL
THAT WZ AWZOM
I like it pictures..It's cool....
I'm glad there are so many people out there who have stuck up for NASA and the constellation project. There is no doubt in my mind that a journey to Mars is just what this world, not just this country, needs. A human colony on Mars would offer a fresh start and a new set of breakthrough technologies if nothing else. However, I get the feeling that a large majority of the US population does not understand just how useful human space exploration is for us. It's really depressing that that is the case. If this country chooses to give up human space exploration entirely I think you can kiss your hopes of ever having it back goodbye. You'll quickly lose the documentation and expertise required to conduct such a mission. Remember, this isn't the only country with a human space program in the works. Scientists, engineers, and technicians here can find the same jobs in other countries.
Anyone for clean, renewable energy? Lessening dependency on limited fossil fuels? Improving the efficiency of energy production?
I am.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/1283056.html?page=1
"220 pounds of helium-3--enough to power a city the size of Dallas or Detroit for a year."
And let's not forget the huge contributions to consumer products that come either directly, or indirectly from the space program. Who appreciates smoke detectors? How many marathon runners have used an emergency space blanket? Who has a electronics with integrated circuits? Who thinks improved and portable water filtration devices could help millions of people all over the world? Or packaged food scientifically designed to last long periods of time and provide complete nutritional value? Who likes having satellite communications, or using their GPS? Nearly 1 in every thousand patents ever issued by the US patent office (since 1790) is NASA's. This institution and it's endeavours, past and present, are incalculably valuable to the global society and we, as Americans, have the honour and the pride of not only hosting it - but of being the reason it can do so much.
For some comparison on the NASA budget, read this bloomberg article:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a1.JmMo8Kr24&refer=home
The last sentence: "The government has already purchased $52 billion worth of preferred shares in Citigroup."
Now, look at NASA's current FY '08 budget: $17 billion
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_Budget)
referencing #126's comments about diversity...
Don't let a few photos fool you, there is plenty of diversity at the Nasa, and ALL it's Sites. I work at SSC in Mississippi, and there has been diversity here since the early 1960's. As a matter of fact, I would venture to say that Nasa and it's contractor companies are among, if not the most diverse companies in the U.S. By the way I'm a minority, and I've been working the Shuttle program for 29 years. And loving every minute I've worked here.
America is full of diversity - I love it. I think that NASA and all the related industries are accomplishing miracles with very limited budgets. THANK YOU. Why don't we place the responsibility of solar/wind power on the individual. Let's create "kits" for each home to harness their own energy - let's create de-salination kits for our coastal home owners. Let each individual take on the responsibility of planting trees, finding alternative fuels for their vehicles and stop looking for a handout from the government for things that are within each and everyone's (earthly) ability to create. WE live on earth. Americans need to be the world leaders in space exploration for all the benefits it will bring to human beings on earth in years to come. Thank you Mr. President!! YOU are propelling America into again being a WORLD leader in Science and Education.
Mr. President!
To George Phelps, poster of #114: I couldn't agree more--we certainly -do- need more scientists and engineers in the Congress.
The problem is that scientists and engineers wouldn't be -happy- in Congress, trying to steer the government--any scientist or engineer worth his/her salt would much rather spend five hours of his precious time in his lab or studying experiment results than wasted in another useless policy meeting.
And that's really sad, because it's the scientists and engineers who truly make this world a better place to live in--not slimy lawyers, who leech off the misery of others, victimize the weak at the behest of the powerful, and who do more to stifle innovation and creativity with the threat of litigation than any Communist government ever could.
To those who think that NASA is the salvation of mankind and well worth the price:
Pay with your own money. Everyone has a cause and thinks their cause is just. Curing cancer, building roads, going to Mars are all laudable efforts. The trouble is, not everyone values the same cause. Government is the least efficient way to accomplish things--if something is worth doing the test of that worth should be people freely paying for it.
Try Hayek: The Road to Serfdom on the allure of central planning: http://books.google.com/books?id=eTve6XEUbYIC&dq=hayek+road+to+serfdom&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=4AanScXwI5GksQPZ59TXDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA55,M1
(Previous comments:118,138,155, 163)
Wow! What a display of male power. Can we rename the rocket Phallus I and get some sponsorship money from Viagra? Thoreau said that before we string a wire from Maine to California, we should first know what message we feel must be sent. The same applies with spending billions on a space program that "might" bring us something someday. Not a good husbanding of limited resources.
When the history of the late 1960's is written, no one will care about the budget deficit, or any other mundane nonsense that doesn't make any difference in the grand scheme of things ... they will write about Apollo XI and the first venturing of mankind off the Earth. The towering achievement that this represents to all mankind makes some of the negative comments I see above look lame, small, and frankly tiny-brained. Pull your head out of your posterior and look to the stars.
Re: Post 160:
Given that I am forced to pay for things, your argument that I not use them is a non sequitur. You presume that because something has happened, there was no other way for it to occur. My posts argue that there are better ways to accomplish technical achievements than coerced funding. Government is notoriously inefficient. Benefits from the space program are at the expense of that which didn't occur. Since it didn't occur, you don't know what might have been. What we know is only that coerced money was used, o-rings froze, tires blew up, people burned, the formula for the Saturn rockets was lost, and also many good things happened.
@ 175 and 178
Quote:
"To those who think that NASA is the salvation of mankind and well worth the price:
Pay with your own money. Everyone has a cause and thinks their cause is just. Curing cancer, building roads, going to Mars are all laudable efforts. The trouble is, not everyone values the same cause. Government is the least efficient way to accomplish things--if something is worth doing the test of that worth should be people freely paying for it."
Why so theatrical? No sane person stated here that NASA and its programs are the "salvation of mankind". The question here is the fundamental aspect of economic thinking. The cost-benefit ratio. The economic value which has been created through all the work and effort in the history of NASA far outweighs the humble budget of NASA, which pales in comparison to other spending ventures done by the government. And that's JUST the economic value. You should NEVER UNDERESTIMATE the ideal value that comes with an outstanding project in the magnitude of, for example, space flight. You know, this is called inspiration. This is what makes any kind of future achievement possible in the first place. When you assess the benefits that may come with such an endeavor, do not forget one thing: the benefits you will reap in the long run. Who makes decisions based on long-term considerations? Government, so far, is the only way to accomplish those things.
You value things differently? Good. Probably most individuals will always value things differently. Does that mean that every opinion has to be taken into account. No, definitely not, at least not, if you want to accomplish anything. Individual (limited) perspective versus, you know, the big picture...
Quote:
"Given that I am forced to pay for things, your argument that I not use them is a non sequitur. You presume that because something has happened, there was no other way for it to occur. My posts argue that there are better ways to accomplish technical achievements than coerced funding. Government is notoriously inefficient. Benefits from the space program are at the expense of that which didn't occur. Since it didn't occur, you don't know what might have been."
Are you serious? What MIGHT have been? What if, yeah what if? That is not even an argument. So lets see, what could possibly have occurred instead of the space program? What would you suggest? Oh, i know. Salvation of mankind, right? By the way, inefficiency is not exclusively limited to Government.
Up to now, every private enterprise has failed to prove that it can replace or even match, in terms of efficiency, a "government" when it comes to providing substantial services fundamental for society on a large scale.
ps.
"The Road to Serfdom" is from 1944, did you know that? Do you know the circumstances and the intention behind this work? It was a response to the collectivism and totalitarianism running rampant in Europe at this time, and the popular (and wrong) belief that fascism was an opposition to socialism.
And did you know that von Hayek was a strong supporter of the role the government has to play in the economy, unlike many of his comrades in the libertarian economists department? He was an avid critic of the laissez-faire capitalism and its supporters, like von Mises.
pps.
I get the impression that you are strongly opposed to paying taxes. If that is the case, you should consider emigration into a so called third world country. Chances are high that you won't be bothered with taxes there.
To 180: Re: "Why so theatrical? No sane person stated here that NASA and its programs are the 'salvation of mankind'." Dirk, try reading posts 105, 109, 113, 151, 156, 158, and 165.
Re: "The question here is the fundamental aspect of economic thinking. The cost-benefit ratio. The economic value which has been created through all the work and effort in the history of NASA ..." You've missed the point. How to judge economic value is the question. Value is determined by those willing to pay. Tough to determine value Dirk, when the money is coerced. As for the remainder of your post--you're being quite theatrical. It's as if you're addressing imaginary points rather than what's written.
ps Hayek did publish The Road to Serfdom in 1944 while in England. He saw the same road to collectivism/serfdom in America, as I'm sure you know Dirk, and the book has been reprinted since. He even mentions different nations moving at different rates to collectivism.
Hayek was not "an avid critic" of laissez-faire capitalism and von Mises; Hayek was a student of von Mises. Hayek was an avid critic of Keynes, who never saw any kind of government spending he didn't like. While Hayek acknowledged some role for government, the section I quoted from Hayek is about those "single-minded idealists" who advocate strongly for government funding of their particular ideals--which is applicable to what you wrote.
pps Dirk, your "love it or leave it" attitude doesn't seem very tolerant. Is that supposed to convince me of the rightness of your reasoning?
@ 180
I read all comments, trust me on this...
Definition of Salvation. That is why i objected.
But trying to neglect any advantage that came (and still comes) out of space programs is somewhat ridiculous.
And I'm not missing the point. Economic value = value to the economy (as a whole system). This is not determined by anyone's will to pay anything - that is the market price.
The Road to Serfdom: Published 1944, written between 1940 and 1943, i know.
I read it.
Yes, Hayek was indeed a student of von Mises. But did you know that Hayek earlier was a supporter of socialism, like it was proposed by Walther Rathenau?
However, Hayek later strongly opposed von Mises, stating that die-hard dogmatists (fundamentalist is a bit inflationary lately) like von Mises were the worst thing that ever happened to (classical) liberalism.
If you don't believe me, ask Google or Wikipedia. They will tell you the same.
Btw, the article in the English Wikipedia is not as accurate as the article in the German Wikipedia. Also not complete, but better.
ps.
Before anyone again hops on the old Hayek vs. Keynes debate, please explain the current global economic crises beforehand, thanks.
pps.
Don't ask me for tolerance. I'm not one of those liberals with their one-way tolerance.
To 181: Dirk, still arguing with strawmen while ignoring the question? Defining value to the abstraction you call "the economy (as a whole system)" is the problem--how does one calculate it? Attempts at collectivist calculations involve coercing others to pay for that which some, in this case NASA advocates, value. While I'll trust you to have read all of the comments, some did state that the survival of the species depends on space exploration. You must have missed those comments or chosen to dismiss them as not sane for your convenience.
ps Hayek's earlier socialism, like Blair's, changed; Hayek learned from Mises. He "avidly" opposed Keynesian economics.
I'm not hopping on any debate about Hayek vs. Keynes, I'm pointing out that NASA operates on coerced funding using fiat money.
pps Dirk, I'm not asking for tolerance from you--you're a mouse click away from oblivion in my world. I'm suggesting to you that you're not helping your argument with "love it or leave it" insinuations.
To 182:
"While I'll trust you to have read all of the comments, some did state that the survival of the species depends on space exploration. You must have missed those comments or chosen to dismiss them as not sane for your convenience."
Well, this is actually true, in the really long run. At some point, the Earth will be uninhabitable for humans. This is millions or maybe billions of years away, obviously, but nevertheless, its true.
On "calculating" the economy: Ever heard about the nominal/real gross domestic product? This is not some invention of conspiring collectivists...
And like dirk said, Hayek was a student of von Mises, but later opposed to him.
That Hayek and Keynes did not agree with each other on the role of government in the economy is true, but Hayek nonetheless backpedaled from his support of von Mises.
By the way, who is Blair? I don't know an economist with that name.
"Attempts at collectivist calculations involve coercing others to pay"
"'m pointing out that NASA operates on coerced funding using fiat money."
Ok, I see where you are standing..making a good case for your interpretation of economic liberalism is beneath your dignity.
While i highly respect the research that Hayek has done, i must say that i strongly distance myself from von Mises. A guy like him, who refused to acknowledge any form of empiricism, is not a scientist but a preacher...
PS:
i was a economic researcher and did quite some stuff on the Mont Pelerin Society
To 183:
GDP/GNP include government purchases don't they? Calculating the value of something is distorted when you can use someone else's money--particularly if you're a counterfeiter, a thief, or a collectivist. One million men could dig a hole for billions of dollars and it gets added up into the total GDP. It could be the Big Dig or a new Grand Canyon. A million more men could fill it up for an even greater addition to the GDP. Either way it's a boondoggle and doesn't necessarily have any value.
My question, G, how to calculate real value, was meant to point out that value is a subjective thing. Allowing the collective to decide it leads to totalitarianism, which Hayek could see. I used a quote from The Road to Serfdom to point out his description of how single-minded idealists for a cause fall into the trap. It doesn't mean I agree with or even know everything Hayek ever said or wrote.
Dirk made the leap to von Mises; "avid opponent" was the key phrase in his "theatricality" with which I disagreed.
Blair, or Orwell, was not an economist, but an author who reviewed The Road to Serfdom.
You advocate empiricism, but what I'm talking about here are principles--something a preacher might better understand.
ps I've dug quite some ditches before.
Hey Jim Taxpayer guy,
Just curious, when someone writes an article about a medical breakthrough in something like Cancer research that was paid for by taxpayer dollars, do you get on their blog and banter endlessly about your libertarian agenda there, too? Or do you just troll around for articles and subjects like space exploration where its a lot easier to get small-minded people (who otherwise still wouldn't agree with your general points) to rally to your bandwagon of "We don't need this!!!" ? I guess what I am wondering is, what of all the dazzling expenditures in our national budget made the little-brown-mouse-in-the-corner called space exploration such a deserving subject to warrant the grace of your tax crusade attentions?
And as for people paying privately for space exploration. Yeah, in a libertarian nation, I *do* believe there would be corporations and philanthropists we could convince to see the value in it and pay for it. In fact, imagine that, there are already those who are! There are several hundred large and small businesses working on ****commercial**** space technology and making a profit doing it, and that's only going to increase in time. In fact, did you know that a portion of NASA's budget goes to stimulating such buisness opportunities such that in time we *will* have space exploration going on that's *not* taxpayer paid for. For cyring out loud, NASA is probably one of your better allies in your little crusade.
Why is this happening? Because there *is* value in it both objectively in terms of short and long term investment returns and subjectively in terms of market value. But, the fact is our society isn't libertarian, its tax-based. And, so long as it is and everyone's being coerced out of there money, anyway, why not lobby our representatives to put some of that coerced money someplace with a reliable investment return? Someplace proven to enhance our economy, education, and long term survival... I don't know like... SPACE EXPLORATION?
To 185:
Just curious:
Are people "small-minded" because they don't agree with you? Do you "troll around and banter endlessly" about your everyone-else-is-doing-it-so-we-might-as-well-join-them-and-get-them-to-fund-our-stuff "agenda" too?
There is value in space exploration, but is there enough value for it to be paid for voluntarily?
While these photos might not be "art" they serve a purpose and that is to document an ongoing project. And with their glimpses they lay bare the economic engine that is NASA. I'm picturing an army of technicians, engineers, designers, attendants, maintenance crew, a lot of suppliers and service industry personnel, a lot of investment in local economies. And it's healthy (if a little bit monopolized) economic stimulus. Simply put: “Every car needs a tire, every person needs a lunch.” I'm also seeing a lot of practical technology and R&D. I'm quite glad to have been allowed a glimpse of this "down to earth" view of NASA (and I'd say the same thing for any industry for that matter.) I just hope that their funding does not get rerouted to "subsidize" a growing percentage of the population who breed, eat and sit around thinking “what’s the point,” pissed off at life "'cauze it's unfair" because they haven't gotten every shiny thing that they've ever seen on TV. I don't usually talk like this but what's going on right with this" stimuls"package has me quite flabbergasted and a little bit upset.
@Banter, post#185
Medical research is currently only read by the medical profession : if they see a need for dissemination of barely readable thesis (which, now, can be done at nearly NO COST), they'll pay for it, be it through money or time spent ...
"Nasa *stimulates* business oportunities ..." So, you definitely admit that funding Nasa is in part Grand Theft Economics, as some money it receives goes directly to private companies ... Profit's been privatized, while debts will be socialized (in other words : People, YOU have been robbed, and YOU will compensate the robbers through mounting taxes ..)
"Why is this happening" : you attempt to put a shimmering light where it's basically conflitcts of interests piling one upon another that ONLY THROUGH PURE CHANCE managed to bring ANY benefit at all for the people ... Long term survival ? Better served through increased Literacy & knowledge of world's Ecology, or through building a better rocket & spy satellite ?
In the end, it seems that you favor the Georgia Guidestones, while I won't ever consent in slaughtering 6 billions of human beings ... we'll see who is Right ...
In fact, did you know that a portion of NASA's budget goes to stimulating such buisness opportunities such that in time we *will* have space exploration going on that's *not* taxpayer paid for. For cyring out loud, NASA is probably one of your better allies in your little crusade.
Why is this happening? Because there *is* value in it both objectively in terms of short and long term investment returns and subjectively in terms of market value. But, the fact is our society isn't libertarian, its tax-based. And, so long as it is and everyone's being coerced out of there money, anyway, why not lobby our representatives to put some of that coerced money someplace with a reliable investment return? Someplace proven to enhance our economy, education, and long term survival... I don't know like... SPACE EXPLORATION?
"While I'll trust you to have read all of the comments, some did state that the survival of the species depends on space exploration. You must have missed those comments or chosen to dismiss them as not sane for your convenience."
Well, this is actually true, in the really long run. At some point, the Earth will be uninhabitable for humans. This is millions or maybe billions of years away, obviously, but nevertheless, its true.
On "calculating" the economy: Ever heard about the nominal/real gross domestic product? This is not some invention of conspiring collectivists...
And like dirk said, Hayek was a student of von Mises, but later opposed to him.
That Hayek and Keynes did not agree with each other on the role of government in the economy is true, but Hayek nonetheless backpedaled from his support of von Mises.
By the way, who is Blair? I don't know an economist with that name.
To 189: The answers are already there, you've got to find them Scully.
@arda, post#189
Repeating the same statement over and over has proven effective at luring the masses in 1936's germany and (less reliably so) lately ... but it doesn't make it true !
"Earth will be uninhabitable in Billions of years, so we must act now" : In other words, at age 7, when the house's on fire, you sit quietly at the table planning how you'll spend your retirement ?
Von Mises, Hayek, Bastiat & Blair ? Their debate may be interesting, but not relevant HERE : the questions asked ON THIS SITE by so many persons here is this : "is Nasa the BEST place to put our (Bretton Woods-convention) money, given the global economy's status, and people sufferings ?" ...
Take too much time to answer at least credibly (and with a MASK of truthfullness), and people may start asking the system-collapsing questions ...
In other words : How could current society escape the fate of every single Empire that ever roamed the earth ?? (before deflecting in a "we have technology" kind of argument, read attentively the Indian MahaBarata "legend")
Next, you may be interested in the various eschatology prophecies of various religions ...
Ignorance is the source of suffering - Buddha, 6th century BC
What is going on in the world ? - Most persons, 27 centuries later ...
WHEN did philosophical studies went the way of Ginko Biloba's era ? - Myself, now
having retired from the aerospace industry in 1998, after spending from 1958 to retiring, looking at the future of space reinforces my opinion of where we should go in the future. If we can survive the next four years, perhaps aerospace work will survive nicely. I enjoyed the pics-excellent views. I started in R and D at Aerojet in 1958 . Stayed with the Titan program for 10 years at Aerojet, moved down to launch base at Vandenberg to the launch facility and from there retiring at the Cape in Fla.'s launch base. Anyone who has ever worked or seen launches, especially at night, will never forget the excitment------
@George Ellis :
How comes so many retired persons from Nasa post there ?
If I had retired from the wood crafting industry, I too would like to see beautiful pieces of furnitures everywhere I cared to look, for the love of well-made things that I would have used to make for 40+ years !
But one has to realize that launching a space shuttle is WAY MORE EXPENSIVE, and diverts money(!) from agriculture & education.
And, by the way, a global food crisis is staged for the summer of 2009 (do not believe me, and investigate Chile/Argentina, or California's waters)... start piling up supplies !
The greatest trick of the Devil is making people believe he doesn't exist ... Look up Islam's Dajjal prophecy (less allegoric than Christian's apocalypse), and make up your mind. May God be with you ...
I saw the scale model rocket @ the KENNEDY SPACE CENTER last yr.
Education is overated. Americans take it for granted yet complain about it and do nothing to improve it except throw money at it with no accountability. What do you expect? A mushrooming of Administrative positions and their salaries yet teachers are underpaid, unappreciated, and demoralized by unions, do gooder ALCU types that tie the teachers hands when it comes to disruptive students.
PBAN is a synthetic rubber binder used to hold the propellant together in a solid "grain." It is not the propellant, just a component of the propellant. A solid propellant needs a fuel component such as powdered aluminum, for example, and an oxidizer component, such as ammonium perchlorate, for example.
Yes, doubling the NASA budget is a great idea and certainly would be a boon to our economy.
Onward and upward!
To Carol, who posted the 99th message, if you believe ACORN is receiving $4 billion then you must believe there are alien bodies in a meat locker at Area 51. If you want to disagree with President Obama, fine, that's your right, but try using facts instead of rumors spread by right-wing nut cases.
As an Alabama State Registered Professional Engineer (B.S.E.E., 1958), retired from NASA/MSFC (1961-1987) in Huntsville, Al, it is great to see these pictures displayed. I can remember Dr. Von Braun telling a story about a women questioning our reason for going into outer space. Her comment was "Why are we trying to go into space? We should stay right here on Earth and watch television just like the Lord intended!"
It would be great to be young enough to experience this new adventure.
Here's my opinion: Give NASA everything they want. We can't live on Earth forever and I don't see Exxon, Microsoft or Coca-Cola doing a whole lot to ensure the survival of our species. These women and men are our finest scientists, engineers, explorers and even dreamers. On TV we see the crews in orbit "swimming" about the spacecraft or eating floating food. What we do not see is the hard work, brilliant solutions and visionary genius behind the astronauts. To date, only twelve men have walked on a surface other than Earth and the last time that happened was 1972. Jimmy Carter gutted the only agency whose mission it is to find solutions to overpopulation, resourse exhaustion and survival of the human species. Lets give them what they need to do their jobs.
Go Go Gadget Rocket! VROOOOOM!
Terribly impressed and proud of our American scientists and all their endeavors. Thank you for all your efforts. Keep up the good work. God Bless all of you.
NASA is the best use of federal monies we have! more power to you NASA!!!! we need to get to Mars by 2020! step it up. We will make incredible advances in energy storage and alternative energy by a worldwide concerted effort to Mars. Watch. It's happened with every major exploration initiative we've had in our species' history. Obama don't blow this one.
I would like to know how everyone will feel if some day the cure for cancer or aids is found in space? They are currently working with this on the ISS and if that cure is found, would that alone not make all the money that's ever been spent on NASA worth it?
I just graduated with a double major in Engineering Mechanics & Astronautics and physics and I am looking forward to helping the advancement of space exploration. You have no idea how much NASA assists colleges, high schools an even middle schools all around the country with various science programs.
Funding NASA with coerced money isn't the only way to advance technology, nor is it the best way. Instead of blunting the desire to advance mankind by admiring shiny tokens of our chains, why not aspire to liberty instead?
Stimulus? Boyz you should have been able to do single stage to orbit by now. The heavy launch vehicle has very little to do with NASA or its noble goals. Its all about NASA falling on its face (with a lot of help from NIXON the Not-invented-here ego-trek prez) when it comes to lifting national security payloads into orbit.
That's right, FOR SPY satellites not missions to the moon or mars. The very first useful satellite (that didn't just go bleep in the night) belonged to the United States and it was called the Corona series. It took photos of the misslle silos in Cuba for then President Kennedy. It took photos of the ICBM silos in Russia.
NASA i
this is a grate site!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Magellan, Christopher Columbus, Drake, even Ralph Yeager (though he won't acknowledge it) were seeking out new horizons. Go NASA.
Can all these brilliant scientist solve the problem of poverty and world hunger? Billions of bucks seems to be a good sum to make our world a better place to live . . .
I'm impressed with the brilliant minds capable of doing great and unimaginable things. The courage and dedication is absolutely astounding. Keep it up America, my tax dollars go to far less, far, far less endevours. I'm so happy to be living in so great a country and at such a time as this. And to think we apologize for our greatness in service to the rest of humanity!
Keep up the good work NASA, lets find out what's out there.
Must we have the invariable whiny "My taxpayer dollars wasted" moron on every site? WHY are you here looking? Go read the WAR news and see how your money is REALLY wasted or how the FAKE Fed runs/ruin your country.
Science...is worth every penny we spend on it. NASA could do better with the dated design. I am grateful to the great men and women at NASA.
Long live Human space travel.
just amezing NASA
Best of best NASA
NASA is second world
JUST IMEGINE
JUST PLANNING
JUST THINKING IS A NASA, NASAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
"Must we have the invariable whiny "My taxpayer dollars wasted" moron on every site? WHY are you here looking? Go read the WAR news and see how your money is REALLY wasted or how the FAKE Fed runs/ruin your country. "
I see. People who object to how their tax dollars are used are "morons" and "whiny." Just how is your unsubstantiated string of gratuitous assertions non-whiny and non-moronic?
And as if we don't object to waste elsewhere. That "the WAR" and "the FAKE fed" wastes our money too doesn't mean we can't object to other uses of tax money.
"Science...is worth every penny we spend on it. "
I'm not really sure how to evaluate this kind of statement. Surely you don't mean diverting our entire national budget to scientific causes.
I am so glad my tax dollars are going to work here rather than some worthless social program.
To all you workers on this program: Awesome job. I wish I was with you in person rather than just in spirit.
Please keep the photos coming, they are inspirational.