Thursday question: Freeloading kids & other bill-splitting woes

You might suggest (2) children count as (1) adult. Even if they are older, and no longer ordering from the kiddie menu, they are probably not having the appetizer or drinks that an adult would be having. Sometimes siblings split an adult order.

Never heard of such a thing as not counting kids. If this is a regular with your sister, then it's time to talk. Since she enjoys division, maybe you could spice it up by saying kids up to age five count as 1/2 adult, up to 12 as 3/4 adult, and 13 and up are one whole adult. Teenage boys count as two adults. Okay, not workable, but still it's so silly not to count the children somehow. How about this: the adults take turns treating: one time you, the next time your sister, the next time her husband... Sigh.... It's so much nicer when everyone plays the grab-the-bill game and tries to out-generous each other rather than the other way around.

I avoid going out to dinner with anyone if the bill won't be split quickly and fairly. I'm not interested in a long discussion about who had the extra whatever. I'm also very annoyed with people who immediately order appetizers, top shelf liquor and the surf and turf when the bill will be split evenly among the diners. We avoid future dinners with them.

Our friends with children ordering off the adult menu count them as participants when splitting the bill. If they don't, we try not to eat out with them.

Wow, that is rude! From where I am sitting, the biggest problem is that you have let this status quo -- you subsidizing their children's meals -- go on for long enough that the kids are ordering adult fare. It's an established pattern the parents are comfortable with (and why wouldn't they be, seeing as how they got the better part of this deal).

What I can't decide is how I would handle this if I were in your position. You know these friends and family -- would it be better to approach them when you're not at a meal, or to pull the somewhat passive-aggressive bill splitting you did with your sister, or to do the division yourself and include the kids? After typing it out, I think I would probably shy away from the direct conflict and try the third. If that didn't work, I would try the blunt approach. I think you might have to be prepared to explain why you're suggesting a change after all these years, as someone rude enough to expect you to pay for their kids' meals apparently has no shame over it.

First, I have to say I am really surprised by this problem -- when I take my kids out with me, if there is bill splitting it would never have occurred to me to make others subsidie my kids' meals. That people in the world do this to their friends -- and then have the nerve to get annoyed when the "you pay for my kids" ploy doesn't work -- is ridiculous.

I suppose the only way is to be upfront about it. Not at the dinner table and not in an angry way. But next time you make dinner plans with one of the offenders, say something along the lines of, "We'd love to have dinner, and would love to see the kids too. Little Johnny is getting so big now! I think we should probably begin accounting for the kids' meals in our costs, though. Financially I think it is only possible for me to afford to go if we each pay for our own dinners."

It sounds to me like the sister is free-loading.

I make it a policy to avoid going out to dinner with people who try to stiff their supposed loved ones when it comes time to pay. It's not always feasible, I know, but I've been lucky enough to have family members that are cool about the bill and I have enough friends that I don't need to go out to dinner with people who are boorish about paying.

I *do* always speak up on behalf of other folks who might be caught up unfairly if we split the bill evenly (people who ordered something cheaper, the one person who didn't share the wine, etc). It's so much easier to speak up when you're not the person saying, "I only had a salad and you all had steak, can we not split this evenly?" I consider it a kindness.

I like jlen's wording. Or you could change up the family outings, like a cookout in the backyard, a picnic in the park, a nice dinner in your home (or a potluck? making "family favorites"), or a relaxed dinner and game night?

Why is it not the norm to pay for what you ordered? I am a frugal individual who generally believes in paying for what you ordered and/or consumed plus 30% of that for tax and tip. While I would NEVER short change the restaurant, waitstaff, or folks with whom I'm dining I also do not want to be short changed myself. Since when is frugality cheapness and generosity fairness?

When ordering, ask the waiter to please provide you with a separate bill prior to placing your order. Or, if it's you and someone else that need the separate bill from another couple or family, tell the waiter that "We" (pointing to yourself and other) "would like a separate bill please"- then continue on with your order. If the waiter comes and asks for your drink order first; request the separate bills at that point of ordering. It's much easier for a waiter to split the bill BEFORE you all place orders.
Then, when your sister (or other couple, or whomever) ask why; tell them that you're trying to be very conscious of your personal (make sure to use that word) spending; or, that you feel like spluring tonight and didn't feel it would be fair to split the bill with them when you know your order is going to cost more.

#5 is right. This has to be brought up when the plans are made. I'd say, that I can only afford to go out with the kids if we start including their meals in how we split up the bill, otherwise, I'd have to say I'll pass. Then when you get the the restaurant, grab the check, count up the people out loud, including the kids and divide up the bill from there.

When we were with 'friends' who "had" to take the kids along, and in the past usually split the bill, we immediately asked for separate checks. Our friends did not like that and commented that we always split the bill 4-ways - I stated that kids were never involved in the past. Needless to say, we rarely go out to dinner, and when we do, surprise! the kids are not along.

I don't care to pussy-foot around issues like that and feel being honest and to the point is much better. Am I rude - maybe, do I care, nope.

This is something that should happen once, only, with these clods. After that, make the rules clear before you dine.

I visited my husbands family a few months ago. My mother in law stated that they would LOVE to dine at the expensive hotel we were staying at. After a long dinner, desserts, drinks, etc., they stuck us with 80% of the large bill, even though there were 3 or them and 3 of my family. I'm really glad we live on the other side of the country!!

Look at it this way: your Social Security will be paid for by your nieces' and nephews' payroll taxes to the tune of a lot more than steak tips at the 99. Lighten up, auntie!

I would just ask for separate checks. How can she get annoyed upfront? You aren't obligated to pay for her kids.

I've been out to eat with friends who do this - and since I don't drink, don't get appetizers and am vegetarian (and thus always get the cheapest dish) I have gotten totally screwed by other people's thoughtlessness..... it only happens once (and sometimes, not at all.... sometimes I speak up the first time.) After that, if eating out with the same person, I ask for separate checks. Good luck.

Hope nailed it by saying she speaks up for those who could possibly be stiffed when the bill comes. To that I say thank you!

I'm pregnant and a few times I've gone out with my friends, we've split the bill at the end (including the bottle or bottles of wine consumed, of which I sadly had no part of).

I feel weird piping in about how I didn't have one drop of vino, so it would've been so nice to have someone speak up on my behalf (to which I would've sheepishly agreed!)

Sometimes it's nice to have a friend come to your rescue when your other friends are either more focused on their own spending or perhaps hoping everyone will foot the bill for their indulgences.

My advice for everyone would be to play that role when you can -- you never know whose day you'll secretly be making!

As usual, great comments, advice and insights here.

I've thought of one perspective that commenters didn't mention so far about why my brother and sister (both with children) feel justified splitting the bill among adults. Since I have no children this means I am subsidizing their kids. Their view is: Aren't we all happy and lucky just to get to be at the dining table with children? The children are our entertainment; I was fortunate enough to get the benefit of being entertained by the children and got to enjoy their company, so I should be happy to pay for that benefit given that children are so expensive and my bro and sis have to pay for them without subsidy almost every day of their lives. As the aunt who comes along for a fun meal from time-to-time, I only have to subsidize this one meal, small payment for the pleasure of being an aunt and interacting with beings who share my genes. [I am not saying I agree with this; its just the subtle feeling I get from bro and sis]

I would NEVER think of asking anyone to pay for my kids. However, what I usually do if someone without kids INSISTS on splitting the bill is further insist that we split the bill amount only and then my husband and I leave the tip. At least then I know that I have at least paid 20% more than they did.

This is so odd. I agree with jlen - as a mother of two, I wouldn't EVER consider not paying for my own children to eat and letting someone else foot the bill for them. Considering I'm an older sibling, I'm the one who usually puts in more money OR just pays for my younger sister to eat, no questions asked. If the tables were turned, I'd probably just look at the bill and put down what I owed, no need for some big discussion or explanation about it, you're not obligated to pay for more than what you ordered. Even if someone else is doing the calculation, you still have the right to look at the bill. If you look at it and find you're paying more than what you owe, then do your own calculation. Then let someone else try to justify why you should pay more.

Dividing the bill correctly and fairly? They have an app for that.

The good thing about a recession is you can demand fiscal fairness in any setting.

Just don't forget to tip the waiter accordingly.

Just tell her. Consider once in a while a treat to you niece-nephew.(auntie has this one), they are blood relatives. Its low class to fight. Just say next time your all out, mommy is paying this time for you kids, auntie has some bills this month..whatever. DOn't get lame with splitting the bill in pythagorean terms..just be cool. Use the term 'not for nothing'...as in "sis, not for nothing but what happens when you start adopting kids like Angelina, you gotta pull a little weight here and there"

With all the commotion over who pays for who, isn't the easiest thing just to pay for what you ordered plus tax and tip? Parents can add their kid's meals into their total. I'm surprised this isn't the way everyone just does it in the first place.

Just had a funny visual of you showing up to dinner with a handful of kids from the soccer team you coach or class you teach. I'd love to hear how your sister would deal with that one!

My children, though smaller than an adult still take up real space and the real food that they eat costs real money. My kids, my responsibility. Period.

Maybe I was raised by different parents than those today, but we NEVER went out to eat with my parents. EVER. Maybe for family affairs where grandpa was footing the bill. But my parents always taught us to look at the price first and then order.

So I ended up eating a lot of spaghetti...and to this day still do.

Obviously the LW can't change the parenting practices of other people but the LW can ask for separate checks at the beginning of the meal.

What's wrong with separate checks? You're still eating together even if you're not paying together. Just asking the waitperson up front to start two separate bills would completely eliminate the need for an awkward discussion about money, which is always a distasteful topic at the table.

I guess I don't understand some people's reluctance to ask for separate bills when dining out, as if it were a show of bad faith. After all, I assume you pay for your purchases separately when shopping for clothes together.

My teenage daughter always orders the most interesting-sounding dish on the menu, and it's frequently one of the more expensive things on the menu. I'd be mortified if someone thought they had to share the cost of her meal.

Oour general rule is that if we invite others to join us for dinner, we are the hosts and pay for everything. If it's a mutual decision to dine out with another couple, then we get separate bills.

If you want to figure out what you owe on a group tab, the key is to mentally add up the menu prices plus tax & tip BEFORE YOU ORDER. This is very easy to do while you're still looking at the menu!

Tips for tallying in your head:
(1) round everything to the nearest easy dollar:
~$8 ($7.50)
~$7 ($6.95)
~$20 ($19.95)
~$5 ($5.25)

(2) add up as you go, looking for 5s and 10s (easy numbers to add)
$8 + $7 = $15
then
$15 + $5 = $20
then
$20 + $20 = $40

(3a) tax & tip method #1
move the decimal one spot left, and double & triple it. (The answer is in between.)
$40.00 (total of menu prices)
$4.00 (move one decimal place left)
$8.00 (double)
$12.00 (triple)
$10 (in between)

(3b) tax & tip method #2
for every $5 of total menu prices, add a bit more than $1 for tax & tip
$40 (total menu price)
8 x 5 = 40 (there are 8 "five dollars" in $40)
$8 + $2 = $10 (plus a bit more)

(4) and finally, add these two numbers together
$40 + $10 = $50 (your total plus tax & tip)

How close is this to the real thing? My fancy computer says: $49.96
My head tally says: $50
Difference: $.04 (not bad!)

The key is to take it one easy step at a time.
If this is too hard for you to do, consider a simpler version:
(1) Memorize the rounded prices from the menu BEFORE you order.
(2) Use a calculator in the washroom.

Oh, and if you don't pay for your children, who else will?

I think if it is one kid and a $3.99 kids meal, that is one thing, but with multiple kids that is pushing it. I am blessed with friends who always insist on paying more, not less of the bill. If I had friends or siblings who pulled that kind of thing, though, I would ask for separate checks.

What's wrong with separate checks? You're still eating together even if you're not paying together. Just asking the waitperson up front to start two separate bills would completely eliminate the need for an awkward discussion about money, which is always a distasteful topic at the table.

I agree with this ..... absolutely. If anyone at the table had a problem with it, it'd be the last time I'd be joining them for any future dinning out.

It's time to have the talk. Don't be mean or anything. Just sit down your sister, or anyone else who has the nerve to make you pay more than you owe, and explain that while you understand that it's less time-consuming to just split the bill in half/thirds/whatever, since you're ordering far less food than they are, you don't want to pay for more than your own meal, and your share of the tip and tax.

People might get annoyed or mad. But what are they going to say? "No, it's fair for us to split it because ... ?" How WOULD it be fair to split?

I don't recommend proposing a system, or even accepting one (such as how much of an adult each child counts for). Such a system can leave room for more argument. I think it's much easier to just do what most people do when you go out with people and the individual meals aren't equal: you take the time to do the math.

I mean, I only split the bill evenly if everyone orders the same thing, if the difference is only a couple of sodas, or if it's someone's birthday.

I think you should ask for separate checks as well, but when I have done that at a few restaurants prior to ordering I get attitude from the wait staff and I am guessing others do as well which may add to the reluctance of people asking, they are afraid of what the wait staff will do to the food.

When I was a waitress it was very easy to split the check after the fact but I was fine putting in two checks at the start if requested. If I did the two check method I always walked back to the kitchen to make sure that the cook knew that the two checks were together (even though I indicated it on the order that was sent to them). There is nothing worse than asking for two checks and then having the meals come out 10-15 minutes apart.

Yes I have some friends that don't like to split "fairly" and don't always ask for a separate check but I know which ones they are and always grab the check first, itemize what DH and I had and put in money to cover our food/drinks plus tax and tip and then pass it along. Then we are not stuck picking up the "extra". I don't have kids yet but wouldn't expect someone to pay for my kids that just seems wrong. And if my sisters ever pulled that on me then I would say something to them because they are family and that is the type of relationship we have.

I'd just take the simple approach and ask very nicely and politely when you call to make plans to go out somehting like this: "and how do you think we should handle the bill for the kids?"

Using "we" means "all us adults", and keeps the conversation light and friendly.

That makes her responsible for giving you an answer; hopefully she'll take the high road and will say that she'll pay for her kids.

If she doesn't, you have the opening you need away from the immediacy of the restaurant to say something like "well, the kids getting so big now that I'd like to work out with you who pays for the children."

If she makes a case that you should pay I'd say something like "I suppose there are some special occassiosn where we'd like to treat them , but for our usual dinners out ir seems to me that parents should pay for their kids."

Then listen to the cajolery, the case-making and all, and repeat: "for our usual dinners out it seems to me that parents should pay for their kids."

The trick here is to be calm and polite and always come back to your main point until the other party agrees. If you get a lot of grief from this person about this topic you may have to reasses their character and value as a friend . . . but do NOT let yourself get bamboozled into justifying your position, arguing about WHY your position is better: " it seems to me that parents should pay for their kids."

Then, at the dinner, grab the check first , and thrust your share into their hopefully willing hands.

I agree with the previous poster who said that this is easily explained by blaming the economy: "I'd love to go, but the way the economy is these days, I can really only pay for myself and can't just split the bill like we usually do." Done.

As the childless aunt of many nieces and nephews who does like to indulge them, I have worked out the following solution. Once the kids are old enough to understand, I tell them (half jokingly/half serious) that I will treat them now, and they can take care of me when I'm old. Mutually beneficial!

Your sister sounds like mine, who does not even think her husband should have to pay for his portion of the meal for family events. She had been doing it for years before someone in the family told her off. Now, she does not bother to come to any outside family event. Fine with us!!!

Tell her up front that from now on the bill is split equally. She has to pay her fair share for her children's appetites. Or, better yet - invite a ton of children (friends perhaps), not tell her and then split the bill as adults only. It will raise up the price she normally pays and she might realize her days of screwing over her family are over.

I'm finding it hard to understand what person or couple is going out with another couple with children. I have 2 kids, and I would never subject friends to lunch/dinner with them. I have to assume most of the people commenting on this are going out with family members, and if you're really asking for seperate checks when you go out with family, maybe you should stay home.

Before children there were times I went to a restaurant with friends/family with children, and I always insist that we split by couple. It's my pleasure to pitch in for the kids meal. Now I only go out with other couples with children, split by couple. Or get a baby sitter and go out without the kids.

I think the real issue is that people are somehow subjecting themselves to going out with couples who bring their children, then they have to pay, insult to injury.

I agree that the best time to bring it up is during the planning of event. "And the kids are old enough now that their food is costing full price, so I assume you will be paying their share?" But be forewarned, you will not come out of this smelling like a rose. I have the exact same situation, on 2 sides of the family and we just live with it. One side only gets together once or twice a year, so we don't say anything, and the other side is more frequent but many times someone else decides to pick up the entire tab for some festive reason, so it's a wash, at least, mathematically in a given year. But trust me, they know that everyone is splitting the cost of their kids' meals, and you bringing it up will not be a light that dawns for them surprisingly and they'll be grateful; either verbally or silently you be the cheap relative who put an end to it. Just my opinion. As an aside, I do have several groups of friends who always insist of people contributing just what they owe, sometimes too much the other way, they're concerned over a single dollar because someone got the extra large size soda. But they mean well, and some of them don't have the extra dollar, so they want to be fair to me because they want me to be fair to them. n It's maybe the difference between family and friends :)

I can't believe people are going back and forth with how to split the bill fairly. The simple solution is SEPARATE CHECKS. Why should you have to pay for your sister's kids meals. My only advise is that you tell her before going to the restaurant that you will be asking for a separate check. If she causes a fuss, just remind her of all the times up until now that you have paid for half of her kids meals and that she should be thankful to you.

Wow, Mike Q obviously doesn't have kids, but has a ton of time on his hands. I think we all get what rounding up is, but thanks for accounting lesson. I'd pass on the the dining pleaure though, since all your attention seems to be on the cost of the menu items!
Since you've said this is not a financial strain, and these particular children are your relatives, why not just feel good about treating them? And as someone else has pointed out, someday they will be adults and you may be relying on them for a hand up. What comes around goes around. Lighten up and enjoy the company!

All of you advocating the separate checks as the obvious, the-rest-of-you-are-such-clueless-dopes solution - do you actually go to restaurants frequently and try this? Because it is not always so easy, or even permitted. And understandably. It's a pain in the butt for a waiter/ess to remember that the guy in the red shirt and the woman two seats away and the kid in the high chair go on one check but everyone else is on another one. Many restaurants simply won’t split checks like this.

All of this "sit your sister down and tell her the freeloading must stop” talk also strikes me as...not the best real-world thinking. Do you really want to have a come-to-Jesus talk about check splitting, LW? No, of course you don't, that's why you wrote to Miss Conduct in the first place. You didn't need tips on staging a Dinner Check Intervention, you wanted a way to handle this that had at least a 50% chance of keeping your fraternal relationship intact.

So it seems like the best solution, after check-splitting where possible, is simply to toss in the amount of money you actually owe. Ask for the check, add up your share, and let her explain why you need to kick in more – and if she does, that’s a great time to pull out the “I really can only afford to pay for my own meal” line.

For what it’s worth, add me to the list of those stunned that this actually happens. I can’t imagine thinking that someone else ought to pick up my kids’ tab. I also don’t think that dining with them is an especially rare privilege, but I don’t think it’s punishment, either; they’re cute and funny and pretty well behaved for two-and-a-half, and they’re sometimes a little loud and impatient in restaurants. Entertaining, perhaps; on most days, hardly something my friends must feel “subjected” to. I don’t see either framing as a particularly compelling influence on the check-splitting issue.

Wow, I can't imagine asking other people to split my children's food among the adults. Heck, I try very hard to make sure I more than cover my own food when splitting with friends.

Nowadays, even when your kids are small, it's not cheap to eat out. I think you've got a ready-made excuse to discuss check splitting with your sister with the economy. Even if you can afford it, she doesn't need to know that. And you definitely need to be direct somehow, since she didn't pick up on the hint the previous time. I don't have any ideas how to do that, since I'm *terrible* about confrontations, but it definitely needs to be done.

I, too, am very surprised that any parent would expect someone else--even a family member--to pay for her children at a restaurant. I can't help but wonder if there's more to the story. Maybe LW's sister often invites LW over for home-cooked dinners but LW never reciprocates. Maybe the sister helped LW through a tight financial spot some time in the past and feels LW "owes" her. Maybe sticking LW with the kid portion of the bill is the sister's way of forcing LW to repay some sort of real or imagined "debt." I'm dreaming all of this up, of course, but I could imagine all sorts of scenarios that would make the situation seem less unfair.
My advice to LW would be to think through whether the sister might have her own legitimate grievance to explain the apparently petty behavior. If you really can't think of any reason for her to act this way, then just pay your part of the bill and be done with it. When you did this in the past, the sister never actually said anything---you only *think* she seemed miffed about it. Well, you can't read her mind. If she really doesn't like it, the onus is on her to explain why.

In my experience, the best solution for this kind of situation is to simply decline dinner out invitations and to not issue any to the person with which you have a grievence.
If your sister has no qualms or shame in hitting you up for her kids' meals, then there's little chance she will understand why you don't think it's fair.
Propose dinner at her house or a potluck at yours. Or simply wait for an occasion- such as one of the childrens' birthdays- where you won't mind so much having to chip in for their meal. If she asks why you never go out to dinner anymore, explain that it's just too costly for you. You've let the resentment simmer too long to possibly be able to remedy it now. Just avoid the situation.

I'm not one who eats very much, but I really hate when there's some long haggle of who owes what and "I just had salad" and blah blah blah, when the check comes. If we only go out once every few months, is it really worth arguing over? No.
I don't care if I end up paying for your steak or whatnot as long as it's not a weekly occurence. Those who have the money to eat out once a week really shouldn't be complaining anyways.

sorry- to clarify about the resentment- all these years you've been tucking away your resentment at having to split the bill while your sister has no idea you are upset. Now your resentment silo is full and about to burst. She has no idea you even have one. If you let it burst, she will be overwhelmed, lost in the flood of a long-harbored grudge about something she didn't think you cared about.
That's no more fair to her than it's been fair for you to foot her kids' bill. You should have said something early on, not let it simmer for YEARS. Your lack of honesty about your feelings ont his issue has complicated things, and they cannot be uncomplicated. Think of all the time you've spent being upset over this, and it hasn't even crossed her mind.

Like I said, at this point, it's best to just decline dinner.

So much is unknown here! For example, If the family with kids is feeling a financial pinch, and the aunt is well employed and childless, and the outings aren't exceedingly frequent, then how much does it hurt to give a little gift of a part of a meal to some young relatives? You don't want to be Aunt Cheapskate Weasel. However, if all things are equal, of course the parents should be paying more for their kids. It would be kind not to haggle about it in front of the kids who have just had dinner, though, no matter who ends up paying. Set expectations before the outing entirely - and just because things have been a certain way for years doesn't mean there isn't a friendly and reasonable way to change them.

"Well, there are 8 of us here who had full meals [6 adults and 2 kids], so that makes it 40 bucks from us, 40 bucks from Mary and John, and the rest is yours!" And smile happily.

If there are kiddie meals, I've subtracted those, divided up the adult meals, and paid on that basis, with the understanding the parents pay for the kid component (but if it's below $10, say, for the kids' meals, why bother).

If they kick up a stink, say "I'm sorry that doesn't add up for you; I think we'd better just pay for our own meals", apologise profusely to the waiter and get separate bills. (Add a bit more of a tip to the suffering waiter)

As a single person with no children family gatherings are expensive. I have 16 neices & nephews. When I was unemployed and finally took a stand, I was told by the sibling that had put herself in charge that I had to share equally with everyone else. As that isn't acceptable I haven't attended a family function in a couple of years. It isn't worth it to me to feel so taken advantage of. Big family's are tricky. There are alot of personalities and usually only the annoying ones are unreasonable, but everyone else just goes along with it.

Wow. I am so releaved that most of the posters here are providing REASONABLE feedback. I have been taken advantage of by dinner/lunch companions enough times that I was beginning to feel like there was something wrong with me.

Separate checks. Problem solved.

When i first read this entry, my first immediate thought was, HOW RUDE!
how dare your sister make you pay for her kids?
but then i thought about it some more. if this ever happened with my sister and her kids (my sister has no kids at the moment), why i would be more than happy to pay for my nephew/nieces! they are family! my nephew/nieces no matter how old they get will always be "babies" to me. and i will gladly pay for them. if anything, the way it works in my family, we never split the bill. we always fight for it.

People know they have to pay for their kids' food right? Right? Please?

I think you did the right thing the time you took the bill and put in the money you owed. I would keep doing that, and if your sister said anything, I'd say, "I'm sorry, I can't really afford to eat out if I'm paying for your children's food."

I mean, if it's something with obvious discrete meals, then those parents should be paying for those kids. If it's a gray area, like dim sum/tapas/everyone sharing, then that'd make it tricky. But I can't imagine anyone feeling that they're entitled to have someone else pay for their kids' meals.

Since comments are closed on your summary/response, I have to post here to ask that you please include a link back to the original question when you summarize the comments. Pretty please?