Thursday question: Painful questions

Nobody's life is perfect. I think we all live with choices and compromises that we've either made or had imposed on us. It sounds like your correspondant, DM, might feel that because she struggles sometimes, she prefers that her friends not share their struggles with her.

Some people believe that good friends don't share their struggles ever. For example, my widowed grandmother once said admiringly of her friends, "Imagine, they've lost their husbands. They must be so lonely. And yet they are so strong that they never complain and never talk about it." She liked things that way and plenty of people do.

But I think there are some alternative approaches to consider. Sometimes these complaints are an opening to a deeper friendship, a place where two good friends can talk about the real struggles in their lives that others never hear about, a place where both can achieve some sort of understanding and a little support.

Neither style is wrong or better. DM just needs to think about which style she wants to emulate. For one, she needs to nod appreciatively and have a pile of other fascinating conversations at the ready that she can bring up. (Use skill here - make the other person feel heard before changing the subject.)

For the other, she needs to think about disclosing her own struggles, slowly at first to stay in a "safe zone," guage the response, and take her clues from there. Not everyone who talks about the hard parts of their lives is open to hearing about the hard parts of their friends' lives, another reason to go slowly if you choose this path.

Good luck to DM with this choice, something that is truly under her control.

And then I am perfectly capable of pushing someone else's hot buttons. Is it "rude" of me to discuss my own struggles, daily toils, or even joys as a mother with a friend who cannot have children, but wants to? My words might hurt her somehow, and I worry about this. But just as she chats about her job with me and I listen and ask questions and empathize or get excited for her, shouldn't I be able to talk to her about my own life?

We can all only walk in our own shoes, and no one else can ever tell where they pinch us as individuals. I think a bit of a thicker skin is the answer, along that remembering that our friends (while therapeutic) are not our therapists, and that we're all only human trying to stay connected to one another.

Hmm... This one raises a little devil's advocate in me. First, why not embrace those weekends alone? If you remarried and had his kids one weekend and yours the other, you'd look back on those free weekends with nostalgia. Or, as you are lonely, fill those weekends with social events to have fun and maybe meet someone. Or fill the freezer with meals so that you're not so overwhelmed during the week. As for your friends' complaints, so? Everyone has degrees of being busy or overwhelmed. They get to have their moments as well. I'm not answering your question (your own sample responses were good), but I am questioning your question.

In response to weekends to yourself:
"Well, I do miss spending time with my kids on those weekends, the house feels empty without them, but I appreciate that it gives me the chance to have some free time."

In response to the fending for myself suddenly:
"It's tough to try and get by when you're used to having a partner to help you, I know all about that." then share some advice on how to better manage things on your own.

It is important your response be honest, gives them your perspective on the situation, but is not curt. They don't know what they're saying is hurtful. By sharing your perspective on the situation, they will be able to see how they don't really understand what it's like because they are not living it.

Just so I understand correctly - You have every other weekend free to do whatever you wish and you feel overwhelmed and lonely?
Please take advantage of those days. Join a club. Meet a nice man if you can. Savor the 'alone time' by doing things you can't do when the kids are around.
If this is a problem for you, then perhaps you may have a little depression. In which case, you could schedule some therapy for those times.

Are these other people friends of the LW or just acquaintances? I agree with Miss C -- if you can't be open and honest, are these people actually friends?

Also, I think the LW needs to make a distinction between a person griping about their own life/situation ("Oh, there's just so much to do with Henry gone. I'm overwhelmed.") and making unsolicited comments on her personal life ("It must be great to have weekends off!"). The former just requires your agreement or insight. You can't exactly say, "Well, MY life is harder than yours, so stop moaning," can you? And do you really want to think that way all the time?

The latter, when it comes from someone you consider a friend, requires an honest response about how you feel. Her friend may be trying to find the silver lining or just looking at the greener grass on LW's side of the fence, but if the LW finds it rude (especially if the comment is a common refrain), LW should let her friend know how that comment makes her feel.

It would seem to me that the issue is about more than the comments the LW mentions; she states more broadly that her friends are "completely oblivious" to her struggles -- which she calls "profound loneliness." Having been a divorced mom (now remarried) I can say that ongoing profound loneliness is not really something that has to continue. You do not have to be so lonely.

So I think perhaps what is happening is that innocent comments are touching a very raw nerve, and that the LW does not have the type of friendship in which she can be honest and open with these friends. And there is part of the reason for her loneliness; she is not open with them. She can use these comments as an opening to get that emotional support she seems to be lacking so much -- she says she is not looking for sympathy, but the whole picture here suggests to me that she is not getting emotional support of any kind, and that is so important. So basically, this goes beyond an etiquette issue. The comments are not only not rude but entirely innocuous. The LW needs to try to brave the next step -- reaching out to her friends.

There used to be support groups for newly single parents. My Mom and our neighbor, another single Mom, used to pack all of us kids in the car and drive to events held by one or another single parent support group. They had activities for us kids, and our parents got to mingle and commiserate, swap tips, and for alliances with other people in the same boat. There must be groups like that still out there. It sounds like you need some support, and if you felt understood by some people in your life, you might feel better ready to handle the comments that show lack of understanding on the part of your other peers

How nice that your friends are consistently trying to relate with you during this difficult time. I'm not sure that I'd bother to keep trying, given how demanding you are about what you want people to say to you. Perhaps there's a clue in this to why you are alone. You only want people to say the things you want to hear.

I am in a very similar situation. I find that some people are rude no matter what you say. A good listener validates your feelings rather than minimizing them or relaying their own difficulties in a misguided effort to relate to your struggles. Seek out those people who say "Let me know if I can help". They are the ones who understand and can ease the weight so you can heal and move forward.

Having been in divorced Mom's shoes I can fully appreciate the difficulty in responding to these comments. She needs to be truthful. If the comments are made by those who are truely friends they will try to understand and help.
1. Weekends alone - response could be that it is nice to have some weekends alone, but every other weekend is a lot and difficult to keep busy so loneliness doesn't set in. Suggest getting together on those weekends for a girls night/day.
2. When friends feel they are left to fend for themselves when their husbands are away suggest they get together - help each other with their tasks/activities. Share cooking dinner - grocery shopping - yard work, etc.
You can then open a dialog about how nice it is to not always feel so alone.

Situations like this demand objectivity. Are they truly saying something rude or hurtful? No, not in my opinion. That doesn't mean you can't feel hurt or offended. If they are truly your close friends, let them know that you feel lonely or overwhelmed. They can't be sensitive to your problems if they aren't aware of them. If they're not your closest friends, use some of the responses supplied above.
As others have mentioned, we all have areas of our lives that are not perfect. My best friend has been struggling to find a decent boyfriend for at least SIX years, but she doesn't begrudge the fact that I just got married. And I don't begrudge the fact that she gets to meet all kinds of new people. We are in vastly different places in our lives but we need to still be able to discuss everything openly... otherwise we wouldn't still be best friends.

Say "It could always be worse!" and maybe they'll think about you instead of themselves. I'm a widow and get comments about how lucky I am not to have to put up with a man!

"I'm going to borrow your husband on my next free weekend"

Divorce is hard. My ex has alienated me from my kids and I understand the lonliness, both from loss of a companion and loss of my kids. We all have to find our own intestinal fortitude and strength. People can't understand what you are going through without having experienced it themselves. Do not blame them, they just have not had your experience.

www.communicationhelper.com

I have totally been there. Do you ever get asked "are you dating?" "you're so nice and cute, why don't you have a boyfriend?" Ever get asked nosy questions about the ex (where is he, when does he see the kids, etc.). These comments can make you feel really bad, if you already feel bad. I expect these people you are speaking of are acquaintances only

Take it from some one who has walked in your shoes. It is going to take some effort on your part to get out of the lonely space. "Join a club" sounds trite, but there are so many organizations you can be a part of, where you will meet new people. I know I was on the right track when I was meeting nice people who like me for me, and did not know about, or care about my "divorce story". I have not met someone new, and I hope to, but in the meantime - as someone here said, you do not have to so lonely. But it will take some effort! Don't be afraid to try.

Reflection, Reaction -- what we "see" outside is often a reflection of what is within us. We have come to a state in our society where we are 'hurt' or offended by practically anything anyone says, regardless of their intent. Often, the hurt is because of what we perceive (in ourselves and others) and has very little to do with what the others actually said. You know, if we wear green shades, we see the world as green?
If we are at peace with ourselves, nothing anyone else says can hurt. If we have self doubts, self perceived inadequacies, then someone can say the most innocent thing and we will be "hurt".

I think for the most part, people are afraid to say "I hate that you've gone through this and I wish I could fix it" so they try to focus on the bright side and it comes out as "you must love having weekends alone!" I also think people just often want to demonstrate they identify with each other, hence sharing about struggles with the husband out of town. Sometimes you have to let people know what you need from them, lest they continue throwing platitudes at the wall to see what sticks.

Also, I agree with #2 that even in difficult times, friends need to share with each other, even if friend 1 is dealing with small potatoes compared to friend 2.

Who is this Liza????? She is after your job! I'm trying to figure out her background. Therapist? Psychologist? Maybe someone who has dealt with divorce personally?

My mom joined Parents without Partners back in the 80s ( the support group/picnics and other events mentioned by #8 ... is that still around?

When you have a personal problem of any kind that none of your friends can relate to, even if they truly care, it can bring on immense loneliness. They will never get it until they are in your shoes, so it woudl truly be better to widen your circle of friends and advisors to incorporate some people who can commissorate/advise/distract you.

Ah, I hear the voice of my best friend, Silver Lining Girl. SLG is congenitally incapable of hearing a complaint or vent without trying to turn your lemons into lemonade. And sometimes it makes me nuts. She would absolutely be in the "oh, you can use your weekends to recharge/meet men/do all the stuff you can't with kids - aren't you lucky!" camp, even if she knew I was brokenhearted about my divorce and missed my children horribly on those weekends. She would feel that it was her duty as my friend to point out all the positives in what I saw as a painful and difficult situation. And yes, I would want to throw something at her. (I love SLG dearly, have known her all my life, value her role in my life above most things - but this quality of hers is hard to take, well-meant as it is.)

I don't know, LW, if that's what's going in your circle of friends. But as someone upstream said, people don't quite know what to say - they want to be supportive and positive, and they don't quite get that their comments come off as flip and hurtful. They don’t want to insult you by dwelling on the negative constantly – “Oh, your miserable single life must be so awful” – so they try to be upbeat.

But there seems to be a deeper problem. Why are you so profoundly lonely? Why do you have all these relationships with women friends who don’t know how you really feel? No wonder you’re lonely, if your friendships are not deep enough for you to have discussed how hard this new chapter in your life is. My heart hurts for you, sweetheart; you need your friends, and you need to bring them close enough to you to really share your life.

It isn’t fair to expect your friends who are frustrated with traveling husbands not to vent about the difficulties that entails. It isn’t fair because they are truly struggling, even though it’s a situation you deal with daily – do you want to be the one-upping friend who can’t be spoken to without pointing out that your situation is worse? If you share your parenting daily, and suddenly you have to do it all, that’s a challenge. Yes, you’ve had to learn that lesson in a much harder way, but that doesn’t mean their rough week isn’t actually a rough week. If you want empathy, you’ve got to give it. It also isn’t fair to expect them to magically know how hard things are for you if you aren’t talking about that with them.

Really, Liza nailed this one. Decide how you want your relationships to look, and work on getting them there.

I don't know your circumstances but maybe you should reconsider your child sharing arrangement. Perhaps your ex could take responsibility for your children for more than a measly 2 days every other week. When I divorced, my ex husband and I shared custody equally so I had enough time to recharge and meet other people. If he is a good father he should welcome that opportunity.

I've been there too. My 'good' friends would comment that it was so nice having their husbands take the kids out for the day so they could relax, while I watched my kids drive off with their father for a long holiday weekend, a weekend that stretched ahead of me with emptiness. The emptiness was filled in first with divorced women friends who knew EXACTLY what I was feeling, then came the dating phase, but it was very important to keep female friends. There is a reason why widowed women gravitate towards widows, and divorcees gravitate towards others. It's easier to be friends, and you don't have to explain what the emptiness feels like. There is a big difference between lonely and empty. Keep that in mind.
Something happened one day that put everything in perspective. After a horrible morning meeting my ex at the soccer field and having him create a scene, and having both kids running to me in tears, telling me they didn't want to go with him for that weekend, I had to leave the field and couldn't watch their game. I went over to a friend's house, crying and shaking. Her neighbor was there having coffee. I sat down at the table with mascara streaks running down my cheeks and ranting like a maniac, when the friend (who I hardly knew) looked at me and said...you're so lucky!!!! I had to turn around to see who she was talking to, but it was me. She went on to say that even though it was tough now, I was lucky to have had the strength to leave him. She was stuck in a horrible marriage and didn't have the money, guts or wherewithall to leave. She was JEALOUS OF ME!!!! So, the point I'm trying to make is while we ALL have our troubles, nobody can know what it feels like until we go through it, and even then, it's different for us all. Keep a positive attitude, this too shall pass.

I can relate to this letter, as a divorced mom of many years. My son is now 23 and I raised him alone for the past 20 years with no input , child support or time off for good behavior from his father. Believe me, I would have loved a weekend alone, which never happened. But I can certainly understand the loneliness and emptiness also.
My experience is that married folks just can never understand what it is like to be raising kids alone. I have heard so many married 'friends' complain loud and long when they feel their husbands don't help enough, etc, without a thought to those of us who wish they had somebody, anybody to share the burden with. They are completely clueless. And it's very hard to have sympathy for them, especially when they 'living large' and I am scraping by.
Over the years I have come to rely on other single parents for friendship and support. They know what I am going through, and even though circumstances might be different, there is a common thread that makes it feel as though you are truly heard.
Good luck!

well- I may not be divorced but I see my husband an average of maybe 10 hrs a week if I am lucky and that is not quality time by any means. I am the breadwinner in the house(he contributes no income) and I am responsible for all pickups and deliveries etc for my son and household duties. Its like I am a single mom .
( He has a start up business so he is out before dawn and home very late)

I can understand the divorced woman feeling like that but MARRIED people experience it as well. How about just responding with the truth?
' You know sometimes I am overwhelmed and would like a break- maybe you can come over and keep me company Friday evening /watch my daughter/ help me with cutting the grass'?.
Feeling sorry for you doesnt help anyone. Helping you make more of what you can give and be is what will help.

Pain is very much subjective. Even though you're going through a rough time, you should make sure you're not dismissing your friend's rough times as they may feel just as hard TO THEM. Just as you wouldn't want someone who has actually lost a child to come along and tell you that your life is easy because you can watch your's grow up. Everyone has difficulties.

Second, the letter seems to imply, somewhat, that the friends should somehow automatically know when the writer is struggling. Friends are not, and should not be expected to be either psychic or professional counselors. If you need help, you need to ask for help. If you need emotional support, you need to ask for that too. Just keep in mind that you may have to specify what you need, when you need it, and even though they're your friends they may not be able to provide it. Not if what you really need is a professional counselor.

Speaking of...if you feel empty all the time and can't stand to be alone, you may want to talk to a counselor or psychiatrist about whether you might have depression or anxiety. If you don't, it might still help you to have someone to talk with who really does know what to do about it. Your friends' discomfort or misunderstanding of what you're going through doesn't necessarily make them bad friends, it just makes them not professional counselors. They may be trying to help, and because they're not getting feedback, don't know how. Of course, they may also be bad friends. It's up to you to decide whether the relationships in your life are healthy for you.

Your pain does not negate your friends' pain, and vice-versa. I would be willing to bet your friends are usure of what to say to you BECAUSE you seem to be handling everything with relative ease. I'd bet they suspect you are in pain, and are trying to coax you into sharing. I sincerely doubt they are trying to hurt your feelings.

I think "You are so lucky you have every other weekend alone." probably means something more along the lines of " You'd think I would have more help on the weekends, more space to myself, but it doesn't work out that way. I really could use some alone time."

I think the second comment is said to you because the friend certainly thinks you can relate. I don't understand what is hurtful about that sort of comment. It is tough to be a single parent, no matter how temporarily, and you of all people can surely understand. Be a friend and commiserate.

As for the first comment, I have shared custody 50/50 for 10 years - so I get not just every other weekend free, but every other week. I get these comments all the time - from nearly everyone, at least once. Early on when the divorce was still fresh, such comments would hit a raw nerve, as I would feel somehow like less of a mother for not having my kids with me full time. It was like a knife being inserted to the gut. And I had mixed feelings because on the one hand I was terribly lonely, on the other hand I'd find myself enjoying the weeks off, which just made me feel guilty and horrible. What sort of mother would enjoy not having her kids around?

I have learned the best response is, "it's hard not to have them with me, but I feel very strongly that they deserve to spend equal time with both their parents" and leave it at that. Over the years, that has changed as I've grown more confident and secure, and sometimes I will just laugh and say, "you're absolutely right - I am lucky! More parents should get divorced and have this arrangement!"

But I have this one friend who has continued to say this all the time, every time we meet, for 10 years! She is like a broken record! No matter what I'd say, she'd just continue to harp on it.

Over the years I have slowly realized that my friend is extremely unhappy in her marriage, but doesn't have the courage to leave it. She looks at me with envy, for being strong enough to go it alone, for choosing a life like this instead of being trapped by fear of being alone, of failure. So now I view her comments as more of a wistful thinking, and an opening to talk about her failing marriage and fears of divorce, which has made us closer.

As a single (widowed) mother raising my kids alone, I envy your correspondent having a) child support and b) every other weekend off.
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I never have time off. I work all day, come home to organize my kids, see to their homework, clean house, cook, and, on the weekend, more of the same along with all the household errands that I must now do alone.
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She should plan activities for those weekends, enjoy her time, and embrace her circumstances. We all need some *time off* from children and normal routine.
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“I cried because I had no shoes, then I met a man who had no feet.”

To those who spout about "time off"...be careful of what you wish for. I would caution against the percentages of marital failure. At one time, my fiancée had a group of girlfriends who looked at her funny for not saving her passionless marriage. As the years went by, they started to drop like flies themselves and all apologized for being so judgmental. I share my kids 50/50. As they get older, the lines start to get a tad blurry. Social lives and commitments are more external than they are internal as younger children. When my kids are on a “mom’s weekend”, it doesn’t mean I don’t see them. I’m at their games, I take them shopping, we split them up etc. The key is to have a really good relationship with your co-parent. I miss my kids so much when they’re not sleeping in their beds at my house. It’s as if the earth is off its axis. With the “free” time, it’s an opportunity to start a new life with someone else, or prepare for the onslaught of kids returning. Those who view it as “time off” cannot appreciate that they too are subject to the issues surrounding divorce. And when it comes crashing down, the LW will be there not to judge, but to lend positive support, with a smile, to an unforeseen tragedy.