Thursday question: Toddlers on the T

It is inconsiderate for a parent to let a toddler sit in his own seat, rather than on a lap, when there is an elderly person who needs it. But absent someone with a special need to sit down, I don't think it is rude at all. Toddlers are not babies. Toddlers are big enough, often, to warrant their own seat. Plus it can be quite uncomfortable to have a 2 or 3 year old on your lap on those little seats -- the child's legs will be off to the side, and because of that either knocking into you (the parent) or likely the person in the next seat over; or they could be heavy enough to squish the circulation out of your own leg, as could happen if you are a parent on the smaller side, as I am. Having a toddler stand is not always a great option, either, as a young child's balance is not going to be great and the rough stops and starts of the T could mean the child gets tossed around quite a bit.

So again, unless there is a person with a special need for the seat, I think it is best for a young child to sit, and if that child is not a baby, to sit in his own seat.

I hope that all people - even the ones without kids - understand what a toddler is. A toddler is a large walking baby with limited verbal skills and a very big mind of his of her own. A budding independent thinker usually with a pretty fantastic set of lungs. As the mother of a toddler, I can't tell you how rude people are to us, all the time, when we are out and about together. As I'm struggling with a stroller and a six year old on my own, people drop doors on my face, cut in front of me, etc. I am a second class citizen when I am out alone (meaning, without the backup of my husband) with our kids. Now, on the other hand - what do strangers think of as a toddler? There's a big difference in the cognitive ability of a two year old and a four year old. A four year old should be able to handle this situation in stride with a few well chosen words from Mom. Assuming we're really talking about toddlers here, they, although they are small, are a whole other can of worms. Pun intended.

The subways are not exactly stroller-friendly. I'd love to wheel my daughter onto the T in her stroller, hang in the handicapped area, and have that be the end of it. My six year old doesn't mind standing and swaying around hanging onto a bar. But the stroller is a pretty tough thing to accomplish with the stairs, the rushing, the platforms, and the doors. I can never rely on anyone to give us a second glance or any kind of assistance to perform this amazing task. A parting of the red sea is more likely. And so I fold up the stroller, quickly carry or usher my 2 year old in, and plop her down in a seat if one is available.

If the car gets very crowded and someone comes in that needs the seat, my first instinct is to give up my seat so that my daughter can still have her own - she has just never been a lap sitter, but more of a lap squirmer. But then she gets very wary of the stranger sitting next to her and ends up getting up and wanting me to hold her which is pretty difficult to do. It's a very hard concept to understand why she should "share" her seat with someone she doesn't know when it was rightfully hers in the first place. Yes, we parents should all be teaching our toddlers some manners and respect for elders and the infirmed. But she's only two - she can't be expected to understand, accept, and keep quiet about it the first or second time something happens to her.

My kids are really well behaved when they're not tired, thirsty, or hungry. But at the end of an adventure in Boston when we're getting on the subway to head back to our suburban cocoon, at least one if not all three of those "if's" are likely to be the case. So I pull out her sippy cup and she drops it and it rolls down the car. I pull out a bag of goldfish and she drops that, too, sending a spill of fishies onto the floor that people can crunch on and now she can no longer eat. And then I ask you - what would you prefer for your subway ride? Seeing a "rude mother" allowing her "entitled toddler" her own seat on the subway? Or the loud, shrieking meltdown that could ensue if she tried to intervene and be polite to a stranger?

Somehow I wonder what kind of dirty stares we'd get if we gave up the seat and then she freaked out? I'd be an unfit mother who can't manage her little brats and ruined the ride for the rest of the subway car. A Mom or Dad in this situation is caught between a rock and a hard place. Maybe we should just stay home.

I think it's fine for the toddler to have a seat. I take the T every day (blue, green and red lines) and I have never seen an elderly person standing without being offered a seat. I have seen elderly women refuse multiple offers if they do actually want to stand. There are always plenty of able bodied adults around who are willing to give up their seats for the elderly.

A pregnant friend of mine said that once she was big enough, people always offered her a seat too. Of course, no one offers a seat to a moderately pregnant lady, because she could actually be a slightly overweight lady...

As is usual, etiquette must involve both sides trying to see things from the other's point of view. So I think the answer is that no, it's not necessarily rude. So let's explore the possibilities from the parent's point of view.

As a parent, I see this situation as a teachable moment, namely teaching our son about courtesy. If I were by myself, I would definitely turn to my son & say something like "Sweetie, come sit on Mommy's lap so that nice lady can sit down" then place him in my lap & offer the nice lady the seat. A toddler may not be able to fully understand the concept, but they do learn behavior by example and imitate what they see, both the good & the bad, so best to demonstrate the good early & often.

That said, from my observations of my friends' children (my son is not a toddler yet), there may be practical reasons why the parents cannot take advantage of the teachable moment. For instance, with a really cranky toddler the parent's choices are to hold a squirming & screaming child on his or her lap and risk sharp kicks to both the parent & the senior citizen or to let the child be and risk the disapproval of strangers. I know what I'd do - No way would I inflict a tantrum on my fellow travelers if I could avoid it.

Now some might say, "Why can't the parent give up his or her seat?" I don't see this as an option for a single parent + toddler. I'd worry about shoving separating me from my child if the T were particularly crowded. Of course with two parents one of them should give up a seat first. After that we revert to the above possibilities.

BTW, I think that the corollary here is it would be rude for able-bodied folks not to give up at least one seat to a parent on the T with a toddler. Also, it would be very unsafe for the toddler to have to stand (toddler could get knocked down and/or stepped on) or for the parent to stand with the toddler in his or her arms (it can take two arms to hold a toddler so no arms left to hold on).

As a parent of two small children, I prefer to have them sit in a seat by themselves when possible. They don't have great balance and the stops and starts aren't something they know how to deal with well. Plus toddlers are HEAVY. And extremely wiggly.

On the other hand, if there were someone who needed the seat, I would have them move, either to stand or sit with me. It was extremely annoying to be the one who needed a seat (I broke my foot once) and no one ever gave up their seat for me.

One of my other peeves, is parents with huge strollers, who have their children sitting in a seat, rather than *in* the stroller. If they are big enough not to sit there, why bother carting one around?

The toddler needs a seat just as much as an elderly person - they are often unsteady on their feet, they are too short to hold on to the bar unless you are near the door, they are at a perfect height to get whacked by other passengers' bags, etc. As jlen pointed out, it's not always possible to have a toddler on one's lap.

I rode the subway infrequently when I had small children, but if anything, I would stand and let my child sit. Unless I was very pregnant...

I agree with jlen.

I suppose people get upset because kids ride free, and think they are therefore not entitled to a seat on a crowded train? When I rode the T regularly with my toddler, I had my hands full with him, the (folded, umbrella) stroller, and the diaper bag. I simply couldn't corral all the stuff and hold my son on my lap, and I figured having the stroller out of the way was a bigger deal than my kid sitting in a seat. When I noticed someone who needed a seat but didn't have one, more often than not, I'd offer mine, and simply stand in front of my son's seat. That was easier than juggling the stuff and the kid.

I think it's rude, yes. There seems to be an unwritten rule that you can take as many seats as you want unless there's an 'elderly or pregnant woman' nearby. What about the average Joe who has worked all day, probably on his feet, and would simply like a seat? He's paid to ride and the toddler hasn't. You shouldn't have to show an infirmity to rate a seat on the T.

I think that there are some really good points here. I also think because I have not tried to take the T with a toddler, I can't really comment. I would, however, much rather see some kind of living, breathing person taking up the seat than a giant bag that someone is too rude to move. I HATE that.

I put a young child in the same category as someone who's pregnant, or on crutches...whatever. I offer my seat. If the child is heavy (and it's going to be uncomfortable for the parent to have the child on his/her lap), why not have the child sit, and the parent stand in such a way that keeps the child balanced? So long as the child isn't kicking the person next to them, or trying to engage in conversation when, clearly, the neighbor doesn't want to be, I don't see the problem. Kids that age aren't necessarily steady on their feet when the train (or bus) is moving...

RH summed it up perfectly. Please do not hide away at home: how will your children ever learn manners and socialization if they are not exposed to the public?

In my opinion, mothers with small children fall into the same category as the elderly, the disabled, and the pregnant.

TheRealJBar: keep in mind that if a toddler gets injured on the T, liability costs go up, and subsequently, the cost for your ticket to ride.

I always give up my seat to any mom with a kid in tow. This happened this morning, a mom got on with a toddler in hand AND a stroller with another kid in it.

I got up immediately to give her my seat, and my seat neighbor did the same so both she and the toddler could sit down.

I have NEVER been on the T when an obviously pregnant or elderly person was not offered a seat. I've been offered them myself and I'm not elderly, but probably look it to all the college kids!

JBar, the rule that I am aware of is that every passenger is entitled to a seat. Senior citizens are not entitled to less of a seat because they pay half, for example, and kids under 5 are not entitled to less of a seat because they ride free. As I hope you've read in some of the other comments, there are actually difficulties with having a toddler stand (the toddler will likely be crashing into people) and carrying a two year old is downright dangerous if the parent is standing am standing. And believe it or not, a two year old on a lap does not always work.

I've been that "tired average Joe" commuting home after a long day, and I don't think my being tired means I am entitled to a seat any more than anyone else. Because I am healthy and have no physical issues that make falling particularly likely or dangerous, I stand, even when tired, on a crowded T. Most of us on the T are tired and have worked hard. If everyone in that circumstance were entitled to a seat, well, the T would have to make far bigger trains. Until they do, we have to prioritize. And how much someone has paid for ride is not on my list of factors. Instead, I consider health, safety, and practicality.

As long as the T is not packed, it is fine for the a toddler to have his or her own seat. If someone who definitely needs a seat is nearby (disabled, elderly, pregnant, etc.), the parent should hold the toddler on his/her lap to provide the other person with a seat. If that is not feasable, the parent should stand, to free up a seat for the person who needs it. And if the child is sitting and parent is standing, someone else on the T needs to step up and provide a seat to the person in need.

It disgusts me how selfish people are. Sure, there are plenty of reasons that cannot be seen with the naked eye as to why someone should need to sit and not stand, but there are also plenty of people who are just too lazy and rude to offer their seat up. When I was on the red line the other night, it was only me out of a full train of people, with my foot in a cast, who stood to provide a disabled woman with a seat the second time she nearly fell.

Thank you RH, for your comment. From this day forward, I will be on the lookout for you and all your gear (or someone like you) so I can hold the door for you or in general make it a little easier for you to cart your stuff and your kids around. I feel terrible after reading what you go through!

I can't think of a single person in the world who'd rather sit next to a screaming toddler than stand next to a happy one. I'm childless by choice, so I have a lot of sympathy for other non-parents who have to share space with other peoples' kids. However since I've watched my brother deal with raising my nephew, I have a whole lot of new sympathy for parents.

See, non-parents have the illusion that parents have MUCH more control over their child's behaviour than they actually do. Even the best behaved, most angelic three year old has very specific limits as to how much "discipline" they're capable of maintaining in an overstimulating environment. That's not the fault of the child or the parent, and unless the child's behaviour is entirely inappropriate or dangerous (i.e. running up and down the aisle of the train or kicking people) then the rest of us just need to suck it up and accept that we share public space in the world with children.

Some non-parents have some strange idea that a parent can "make" a toddler do or stop doing something. That toddler has just discovered that they're completely independent and invincible and has to be very patiently taught otherwise. If a tired or hungry toddler doesn't want to sit quietly in a lap, then an exhausted parent on their way home from either working or running errands all day is NOT going to be able to make them. The parent will pick their battles. If they can reach a compromise where the child will sit in their own seat, then it really is in everyone's interest that it happens.

And anyone who thinks anyone is actually ABLE to hold a screaming squirming 50 pound child, a purse, a diaper bag, a folded stroller and whatever else they need in two hands and a lap is really, really mistaken.

what i have done in the past is if the T is crowded and there is a seat available i have my child take the seat and i stand with my child.

i do not think it is rude to have a child seated. actually, its almost a safety matter. there have been countless number of times that my child has had stand (she is 4) and she does okay - except she is unsteady on her feet. also she has to dodge other passengers bags, purses, laptop bags - hitting her in the face and head. that doesnt help at all.
and you would HOPE that the offending adult would say sorry - but often time they just look down at her rubbing her head and then look away.
i think alot of people just dont think of a child as a person. its sad really. i hate questions like this - people are so quick to judge kids/parents. but yet they are whapping my kid off the head with a heavy bag and not having manners enough to say sorry. such a double standard.

for what its worth - about 5 years ago i had the 'pleasure' of breaking my ankle and being on crutches for a number of weeks. i also had to ride the T. i was never offered a seat by anyone as i balanced on one foot, on crutches with my bag. i would have to ask people to please give me the handicapped seat.
i think people lack manners in general and only think about themselves. for example - for example as post #8 - really buddy cry me a river. ugh

Clare wrote: "I suppose people get upset because kids ride free, and think they are therefore not entitled to a seat on a crowded train?" I used to get that on the 66 bus between Coolidge Corner and Harvard Square from a bitter man. // I like bah humbug's and jlen's response to TheRealJBar (who's actually kinder to the LL drama kings and queens that here, to parents who could use a little kindness). // I have a student discount from the T, a few bucks off every month. Should I cut a few inches off my butt to accommodate the other "weary Joes"? // b0stonian wrote: "When I was on the red line the other night, it was only me out of a full train of people, with my foot in a cast, who stood to provide a disabled woman with a seat the second time she nearly fell." When I was preggers, I offered seats to the elderly, while others didn't. Good for you - tho you didn't have to do it.

The toddler gets a seat for all the reasons already mentioned - heavy, unsteady, etc. I've given up my seat to a parent with a toddler just as many times as to a pregnant or older (or particularly tired looking, JBar) person. The T isn't an airplane; you don't have to have the kid on your lap to avoid paying for them.

However, I am sick and tired of parents taking any and all excuse to criticize the rest of us for failing to cater to them and their children. I don't care whether or not you can make your kid behave - if you can't, skip the Big City Adventure and stay in the suburbs until you and junior can go out in public without hitting people with strollers and causing chaos. Or at the very least, don't do it at rush hour! And how about the the amazing arrogance of the double-wide stroller. "HELLO, everyone, plaster yourself to the side of a building so that Mother Earth and her brood may pass!"

Some parents have the strange idea that the world revolves around their little darlings. If you can't control your kid, don't take him out.

As a parent of 3 under 3 I agree with the posts regarding the safety issues of an unsteady child, varying temperments of toddler (even well-behaved ones), etc. However, another issue is the large diaper bag of neccessary items (food, clothing, diapers) needed when with young children. With the cooler winter upon us, we also have thicker coats to manage and the like. Even if I only had my oldest (age 2 1/2) on my lap, with coats, bag, folded up stroller etc. we'd take up 1 1/2 seats. 2 seats is safer for everyone. And it seems from the other posts that people seem to understand.

My toddler would throw a fit if he didn't get his own seat. He wants to do everything on his own. So in my case, I could not put my toddler on my lap. I would free my seat if needed though.

Personally I think that giving a toddler their own seat on a crowded subway is rude. On the other hand, I appreciate that children are not china-dolls (or parcels even!) which can easily and calmly sat on a parent's lap. For the parent, too, especially in summer, it can be hot and uncomfortable to have a child sitting on their lap.

I'm not sure what to suggest as a solution but it is funny to watch wriggly kids on public transport over here during the UK school holidays get up to look out a window and get called back by their parents, "Come and sit down before someone takes your seat!" Finders, keepers... ;)

I bring my dog on the T. He can be squirmy and unsteady on his feet because, well, he's a dog. He's too small to stand on the floor because he might get stepped on. Does this mean he's entitled to his own seat?
No. If there are no seats, I carry him, and he's not that light. If there is a seat, he sits on my lap. If he squirms, I tell him to settle. He doesn't understand English, so if I can manage that with my dog, you can manage that with your todddler. And do you think anyone offers me a seat or helps me out if I'm trying to wrangle him and luggage or whatnot? No. so save me the Blanch DuBois defense. If you need help or a seat, you ask. "Excuse me, I'm sorry to bother you, but I have this luggage and I have to carry my dog, if you don't mind, could I have your seat?"
People almot always kindly oblige. What do we say to our kids? "Don't be afraid to ask for help?"

I used to work for a movie theatre. It irritated me to no end to have to explain to patrons that the reason that children under a certain age didn't have to pay for a ticket was because it was assumed that they would sit ont ehir parent's lap. Thems the breaks folks.

I'd WAY rather have a toddler sitting on a seat than rocketing (and falling) around the train while his parent zones out, thanks. I'm much more easily annoyed by people that ooze into the next seat or guys who think that they have to keep their legs spread at an obtuse angle at all times while sitting.

For heaven's sake, these are CHILDREN we are talking about! Not dogs, or packages, or any other encumbrance you can think of. They are PEOPLE. PEOPLE are entitled to sit on the T if they so desire, regardless of their age.

I always gave my toddlers seats if possible for two reasons:

1) They were short, and had trouble holding on because they just couldn't reach. If they can't hold on, they fall, and knock into people, which seems even ruder.

2) They wiggle and squirm and climb over me to see out the window. In the process of wiggling and squirming, they tend to kick people next to them, which is again, rude. If they are in the seat, they are quiet, still, and looking out the window.

Now that my kids are older, I will make them stand and give their seats to those who need them. By that I mean people who are very elderly, handicapped, pregnant, or carrying small kids or large parcels. But if you are an average able bodied adult, sorry, my kid was there first, and has just as much right to that seat as you do. And given that they are still pretty short, they still have a hard time not flopping around and bumping into people.

From reading this thread, one might picture the typical Boston T-riding mom as a paragon of virtue, a Madonna of patience, a Ma Walton of common-sense reasonableness, a Mrs. Manners of consideration.

Please tell me, then, who are all those women riding the T with two or more unoccupied strollers taking up five seats for two children, spreading out a virtual picnic blanket of Big Mac wrappers while serving lunch, rubbing ketchup-covered fingers on the handle poles, distributing a packing case of juice boxes and a Christmas load of toys for the kiddies to throw on the floor, and fixing all their attention on their purses as their little darlings run screaming up and down the aisle at rush hour?

I am confident I will not be told that I have not really seen this frequently, because then I would be compelled by honesty to call someone a liar, and no one here would wish me to do something so impolite.

Um, I have a dog in addition to my two children, and I'd prefer to take him independently on the subway with all five pieces of my matched luggage and a cup of hot coffee during rush hour than take my toddler during an even moderately busy hour of the day. But it's stimulating and interesting for the kids, they love it, and it's part of the training required to become a citizen of the world. Hopefully one with a little less judgement and a little more kindness.

As I'm teaching my six year old, even though we all make mistakes sometimes, being a considerate person means actively looking beyond the end of your nose and realizing that you're not on the planet alone. But just because I see someone on the crowded subway who probably needs my toddler's seat as much as she does - that doesn't mean that it is always smart, safe, or even possible for my family to help them out. My primary concern has to be for the safety of my kids (and secondarily, to try to keep them quiet and relaxed for the greater good of the ENTIRE subway car and not just the one person that is needing a seat.) And I hope that's okay.

I find it kind of entertaining that the question needs to be asked. Set the scene in your mind, complete with that "MBTA/urine/motor oil" fragrance and the occasional DING DONG of the bell. Elderly person/young person on crutches enters crowded subway train. Judgemental able-bodied person who is probably already standing and holding on scans the train, noticing an tremendous cross section of humans. He/She zeroes in on...the mom with the toddler sitting next to her! She is the root of all evil and entitlement. Tsk tsk! What about the REST of the able-bodied, healthy adults listening to their ipods and staring blankly ahead?

Marcus, I'll tellya - they are certainly not the ones reading Miss Conduct and commenting here! :)

I am very sad at the meanness and selfishness of some of these posters.

Comparing a toddler to a DOG? Are you kidding me? They're not allowed on the T in rush-hour anyway unless they're in a carry-bag. (except service dogs of course!)

Like most T riders, I generally glance up at the nearest door to see who is coming in, and who is standing near me to check for preggers and elders. Sometimes I am reading and don't notice the stop. I apologize for that and will start paying more attention. Hopefully this might make up for a lack of civility on the part of some of the cretins posting above. Geesh!

oh please. I have seen plenty of toddlers given their own seat who squirm kick the people sitting next to them, cry and climb all over the place to get to the window. Unruly children are going to be unruly whether you give them their own seat or not.

I'll agree with Marcus on the fact that there are certainly parents on the trains that are rude and inconsiderate. However, there are all kinds of people on the train (or in any public place for that matter) that are rude and inconsiderate in any number of ways - why should the entire population of parents be any different than any other cross section of the population? Parenting is hard and there is only so much a parent can do in a confined space with a child or multiple children in a given situation. Personally, I'd much rather stand with a broken foot so a toddler can sit than have the child screaming, running around and knocking into me on a train. The way I see it is that there's a difference in the intentions of a person. For example, think of the people that take up a seat with their bag on a crowded train or decide now is the time to have a very loud personal conversation on their cell phone, etc. Then think of the mentally ill adult that can't stop talking extremely loudly to all the people around them. It's all about intent. So, some parents don't care that their behavior or things they *can* control are causing discomfort to others around them. Other times, the parent is doing all he or she can to control the situation and it's just not enough at that time. I care about the difference between the two. The parent that's trying to make the train a better place to be deserves sympathy and a little extra consideration especially when a trying to avoid a toddler meltdown. The other kind of parent that feels entitled to take over the train and make the ride unpleasant for other riders because they feel they deserve special treatment, does not.

RH, I'm pretty sure your first post described the exact scenario Marcus envisioned, complete with food and drink tossed on floor.

So, some parents don't care that their behavior or things they *can* control are causing discomfort to others around them. Other times, the parent is doing all he or she can to control the situation and it's just not enough at that time. I care about the difference between the two.

Absolute agreement. I once had the misfortune of sitting on an Amtrak train next to a mother with her remarkably, um, spirited child. However, she was unbelievably attentive, both to him and the other passengers, able to carry on a coherent conversation while intercepting his sippy cup projectile with one hand, preventing him from pulling another passenger's hair with the other, and using a toy to distract him with a hand that came from I know not where. She was a maternal octopus.

The result? Yes, the kid squirmed and made noise, but no one felt irritated at all. I think irritation occurs when your attention is repeatedly diverted against your will--when you feel required to watch over or supervise a situation that should not be your responsibility at all. By completely taking charge of her kid, the mother on the train eased all of our fears that he would hurt himself or throw up on us. She was on it.

The posters above certainly see themselves as just such moms. That's great. But that's not what I usually see on the T. And I wonder a little if that's what other passengers really see when they are riding, as well.

I will say this: Unless you have an appointment, a plane to catch, a day-care dropoff, or similar excuse, taking a toddler on the T during rush hour just for an "excursion" is the height of rudeness in itself.

Marcus - Hate kids much? Why should parents adhere to your anal-aggressive standards? I bet you don't have kids - good thing, too.

You know what galls me? People who take up two seats on the T - so they can do their office work; spread out with their laptop; two pocketbooks; gym bag and briefcase; papers. So, should their paperwork purchase a second T pass, too, especially when they don't pack it up and allow an elderly to sit down? Saw this twice this week on the 441/442 from Marblehead to Haymarket - see it habitually with these same two riders. They won't move their cr*p so someone can sit until they get peer pressure for it.

Q wrote: "Some parents have the strange idea that the world revolves around their little darlings. If you can't control your kid, don't take him out. " And if you can't control your paperwork and must do it on the T - do it at the office or at home!

Tacking on to J.R's excellent observations, I'd rather sit next to a squirmy, kicking unruly toddler than someone talking about their latest visit to the STD clinic on their cell phone.

As for pinkkittie, all I can say is, now I know why I get flea bites whenever I ride the T. And still, flea bites from illegal pets, are far better, in my opinion, than having to endure obnoxious people who insist on using cell phones while riding.

i'm on the T all the time and it never even occurred to me before to think anything about toddlers in seats. they're just another person in a seat.

however, it bothers me when they're kicking me or putting their dirty feet or hands on my clothes. and it kinda blows the safety argument when the kid is standing on the seat to look out the window (into the dark tunnel!).

as others have said, it's FAR more irritating when people hog seats with their bags, computers, etc. i usually stand in front of them & say, "excuse me, can i sit here? thanks." they'll move the s**t then.

i don't mind loud phone convos because i love to eavesdrop.

For the record, purchasing a ticket on the T entitles one to RIDE, not necessarily to SIT.

If the T lets kids ride free, they have as much right to a ride as anyone else; if there is a seat free, then they can sit, same as anyone else.

Unless, of course, the parent has a stroller for them, in which case they should sit IN the stroller, which is taking up space anyway, and leave the free seat for someone else.

And the key here is to SIT....not sit & jump up, not sit & run back & forth across the aisle, etc. If the child is too wound up to sit in the seat, then the seat should be left for someone who's happy just sitting quietly for the ride.

As a pregnant mother of a toddler, I would really appreciate having a seat to put my child in on the T - if it were available. I would agree with what many have said on here about how hard it is to 'control' a two year old. Within a matter of months, we have to take a baby with absolutely no sense of self or language, and teach an entire language and set boundaries, all while a child is realizing that they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

When one is pregnant (aka tired, sick, and/or achy), it may be even harder than usual to take care of a 2 year old's needs as best as we might like. Many women with toddlers are possibly pregnant - at least half the moms I know are... and many may not be visibly pregnant. Perhaps if we can't physically do all that is necessary to keep our toddlers from annoying other riders, it doesn't mean that we aren't trying our hardest to do so - it may not be physicaly or emotionally possible. On the other hand, there are varying opinions on what exactly is annoying...we've seen many of them here on this board. I completely understand what it felt like to be annoyed by toddlers in many situations - because once upon a time I did not have one. However I'd urge you to try and be patient with us. Trying to apply proper rules of decorum to a toddler are completely pointless.

One more thing - regarding comments about not taking children out during rush hour. (And a quick reminder - we are at work as well.) After nearly 10 years at a fast paced, cut-throat financial services company, let me tell you that very little that is done at a typical 9-5 job is as emotionally, physically and mentally draining as a work day with a two year old. The joy of a toddler in a fun museum or library is worth the commute with people who may or may not like us being on the train with them. And I sincerely doubt that the couple of annoying things that the toddler does during your commute are going to affect how well you do your work. Meantime, if we put the full body bind on our two year olds on the T, to keep them from speaking/moving in a fashion that bothers commuters, we will certainly end up with a meltdown, which, in turn, will take enough mental/physical energy so as to significantly lower the quality of our work over the next hours.

As a pregnant mother of a toddler, I would really appreciate having a seat to put my child in on the T - if it were available. I would agree with what many have said on here about how hard it is to 'control' a two year old. Within a matter of months, we have to take a baby with absolutely no sense of self or language, and teach an entire language and set boundaries, all while a child is realizing that they can do whatever they want whenever they want.

When one is pregnant (aka tired, sick, and/or achy), it may be even harder than usual to take care of a 2 year old's needs as best as we might like. Many women with toddlers are possibly pregnant - at least half the moms I know are... and many may not be visibly pregnant. Perhaps if we can't physically do all that is necessary to keep our toddlers from annoying other riders, it doesn't mean that we aren't trying our hardest to do so - it may not be physicaly or emotionally possible. On the other hand, there are varying opinions on what exactly is annoying...we've seen many of them here on this board. I completely understand what it felt like to be annoyed by toddlers in many situations - because once upon a time I did not have one. However I'd urge you to try and be patient with us. Trying to apply proper rules of decorum to a toddler are completely pointless.

One more thing - regarding comments about not taking children out during rush hour. (And a quick reminder - we are at work as well.) After nearly 10 years at a fast paced, cut-throat financial services company, let me tell you that very little that is done at a typical 9-5 job is as emotionally, physically and mentally draining as a work day with a two year old. The joy of a toddler in a fun museum or library is worth the commute with people who may or may not like us being on the train with them. And I sincerely doubt that the couple of annoying things that the toddler does during your commute are going to affect how well you do your work. Meantime, if we put the full body bind on our two year olds on the T, to keep them from speaking/moving in a fashion that bothers commuters, we will certainly end up with a meltdown, which, in turn, will take enough mental/physical energy so as to significantly lower the quality of our work over the next hours.

I accidentally nipped this part out of my comment above - regarding rush hour. Most toddlers nap from after lunch til late afternoon, so many moms have to take kids out during the waking hours before lunch to have as much time as possible on their city excursions. Since most museums/activities open at 9, this means that often we'll be on the train with some commuters, if we want to take our time enjoy ourselves before lunch.

I hadn't commented yet because I felt that Q adequately (and succinctly) addressed what I had to say. But I see a few attacks on the posters who believe that parents should manage their children in public settings.

Those of us who believe that children can and should be taught how to behave in public are not child-haters based on that fact alone. In fact, we include parents in our numbers. Children are amazingly smart little creatures and the majority are perfectly capable of learning proper behavior, even at a young age, if their parents and guardians are teaching them AND playing to their strengths. You know what your kid can and can't handle, so work with that and manage the outcome. I have complete sympathy for the parent handling a toddler meltdown in public, but the key to that sympathy is "handling" it.

And if you'd like to tell me how much that makes me a child-hater, feel free. I've heard it before. I still maintain the belief that if you choose to have children, you are responsible for them and I am under no social obligation to cater to your choice.

bah humbug- my dog does not have fleas, he has never had fleas. And also, being a dog, he doesn't carry the cold, flu or H1N1 to spread it all over the T with grubby little fingers or coughs & sneezes.

Most people on the T at rush hour do not want to be there. No "fun" or "joy" is involved. They have to be there, in order to keep a roof over their heads and bread on the table. It's all very grand to decide on behalf of the commoners that their time and inconvenience is of no import. However, missing a train that is overpacked--something that happens every day at certain stations--can easily make someone late for work, a serious matter for an hourly employee, especially in this economy. And having to give up seats and play nursemaids to uncontrollable children (or so their own mothers describe them, above) for no reason other than pleasure and whim is, in fact, a major imposition on harried strangers.

Incidentally, a great many of the workers riding the T happen to be parents, too, though they are not the ones whose primary worry is deciding when to schedule a morning gallivant to the museum.

Of course toddlers should get seats if seats are available. It should be first-come, first served. It's public transportation. The exception is that persons who can ride standing should offer their seats to persons who, for whatever reason, may have trouble standing. Some of the posters here seem kind of anti-social to me; I thought looking out for the welfare of children, including those of strangers, was part of being civilized. Whether toddlers, teenagers, commuters, sports enthusiasts, etc behave themselves in public is an entirely separate discussion.

I'm sick of listening to people complain that someone won't give them a seat. ASK FOR IT if you need it. Most likely, you will not get a "no" as that would be humiliating for the person being the seat-hog. Most people are clueless and into their own world, especially on the T. Sure, if you're polite, you can notice that someone else needs a seat and be kind enough to offer it. But in this day and age, I wouldn't assume that anyone knows my needs or even cares about them.

I would gladly let toddlers have their own seats -- mostly for safety reasons -- and there are PLENTY of other people on the train that can get up for an elderly/pregnant/disabled person -- if they even notice that one has gotten on the train.

And another thing -- public transportation is PUBLIC. There shouldn't be any limitations as to when toddlers and parents can or should ride the T -- that should be a personal choice.