Thursday question: Too-friendly boss

Probably people have overheard your group letting off steam about your boss in the company cafeteria and have gotten back to him about it. It may even be undermining his job. He'll stop coming to lunch when he is convinced you are going to stop criticizing him behind his back. It is too bad your boss and co-workers don't have more open ways to discuss work problems in the office so that you can truly chat and relax at lunch. My experience is that there is usually one person who keeps the work gossip going and that that cycle is hard to break. If you really need to have a heart to heart about the boss go offsite outside of working hours.

Why not try to include your boss in talking about non-work related topics? Maybe you'll enjoy yourselves more if you don't focus so much on the negatives of the workplace and more on your lives outside of work. Then maybe you'll find the stress relief you need and maybe you'll learn that your boss is actually human!

I agree that there may not be a "polite" way to do this. Best you can do is be subtle.

Conspire with your lunch pals to avoid the cafeteria for a week - either bring lunches or go out every day. After a week, make it unpredictable - plan that Tuesday you will eat in the cafeteria, but be elsewhere Monday and Wednesday, etc. Try this erratic lunch thing for a month and see if maybe you can throw the boss off enough that he won't know to look for you in the cafeteria.

Alternatively, is it possible for you all to wait for him to go down, then go into the cafeteria after him and sit at a different table?

Your boss is a dunce, and approaching this in a more straight forward, adult manner is bound to make him resentful.

First of all, gossiping about the boss in a public space in the office is a really bad idea. I wouldn't be surprised if someone overheard you and told him, and that's why he's joining you. If you must gossip about him, do it behind closed doors, or (preferably) offsite where you are unlikely to run into co-workers.

Gossip aside, why not try something like "Mr. X, I am really flattered that you want to spend your lunch break with us. I'm probably hypersensitive, but since you're my boss, I don't feel like I'm truly on break when you are there. I really need the downtime that my lunch break provides to allow me to focus for the afternoon. If you want to catch up on work-related stuff, of course I would be happy to meet with you during my regular work hours."

If that doesn't work, go out for lunch, eat at your desk, or you and your friends should split up and sit with different people - he can only sit with one of you.

You need to be grown ups and professionals about this. You are acting like a bunch of children in the school cafeteria. I don't see anything you can do here except for start having your lunch someplace else if it's that important to you. Think about your little group: do you generally act like a clique? He may be trying to diffuse that. Talking about your boss in a public place like the company cafeteria isn't the smartest career move you could make, anyway.

I disagree that the boss probably heard you were complaining and decided to join you to stop that. My gut feeling is that he is probably trying to be nice, and nothing more. The plan to go elsewhere for lunch is a good one, but if you only have a short lunch, it may not work. I suggest you listen to Barbara above, and talk about other things. The point of a break is to get away from work, not to rehash it.
This is really not a huge problem, in the scope of things.

I echo Anita. It's hard to gossip about the drama geeks when thy come and sit at the table with you, isn't it?
Grow up. Office gossip is bad for morale and for your career. Do you honestly think that anyone who might overhear your gossiping is going to think your behavior is professional?
Talk about movies, tv shows, hobbies, anything but co-workers. Gossip is unprofessional and cripples a workplace. People should be less concerned about what their co-workers will say about them and more concerned with doing their job. You should be more concerned about building a healthy professional relationship with your boss and less concerned about missing out on your gossip time.

The boss is making a mistake, but it's one that could play to your advantage in the long run: the more human you are to him, the harder it will be to lay you off. Take this opportunity to close the distance gap and become more than a easy-to-lay-off, faceless worker drone to him.

Leave the office if possible for lunch. See if he gets the hint. Thats a terrible situation, the only break you get from work is spent with the boss...I would be itrritated too!

Good Luck!

You really need to gossip about your boss' failings in order to have a good time? I can't understand why your boss would want to eat with YOU, personally. Seriously, grow up and stop gossiping at the workplace.

Come up with a verbal cue like "so I'm thinking about about swimming to the Maldives" after which everybody in the group starts throwing their food on the boss while shouting "get out of here!"

I'm pretty sure the word got out and he's there to put a plug in it. You said it yourself: some of you have been there 10 plus years so the sudden interest in your particular table/group is an indication. There's a saying that you don't eat where you "shyte" so venting about the boss in the workplace, regardless of whether you are at lunch, is not a good idea. As another poster advised; start going out for lunch or discuss topics that will be of no interest to him. Discussing co-workers or bosses at lunch in the workplace is never a good idea. Take it outside and after hours or it will come back to bite you down the road.

I think most of the posters on here are total tightwads. Who the heck wants their BOSS sitting with them on their lunch break, REGARDLESS of what they talk about?! Everyone has griped about their boss from time-to-time, big deal. It's their BREAK. They should be able to talk about whatever they feel like. The boss shouldn't be trying to make friends with underlings anyway. I do agree with the guy that said maybe getting to know him will make it harder for him to lay you off though, should that ever occur.

Oooh I disagree with Q and Robin. Trying to throw your boss off is a bad bad idea. It isn't subtle, either. It just looks like you are trying to throw him off.

Personally, I can't think of anything more unpleasant than one-on-one time with my boss--he is weird and scary and uncomfortable. But if he demonstrated some interest in spending personal time with me, I would eat it up. Any chance you have to make yourself look good to your employer, you take. Bah humbug is right--this really works to your advantage. And if you really need that time with your coworkers to de-stress and vent, go out for drinks after work on your own time.

Some subtle ways of communicating the need for better managerial skills (the lunch-together is definitely the last straw):

Sign the boss up for weekly email columns from Dale Dauten, the best online manager coach I know of.

Sign the boss up for mailings from professional seminar providers (there are a few companies but their names escape me).

Send the boss a good management book from Amazon or a used-book website--anonymously, of course.

And eat lunch fast, then go for a walk without the boss. Walking is the very best stress management for working with clueless clunkers.

The letter is about far more than gossip. Yes, the LW should not be gossiping at the work place. But getting hung up on that single issue obscures the main point: when the LW cannot get a break from the boss, she/he feels as if she/he hasn't had a break at all. Even if LW cuts out the gossip and wants to talk about purely personal things or light topics such as movies and books, having the boss there might be a drain. The LW just can't get away, and needs to. Telling him/her to stop gossiping doesn't address that issue *at all*.

I like akmom's approach -- diplomatic, but direct. It sounds professional and lets the boss know it is not a personal issue with him/her but simply that the down time away from superiors allows the LW to relax and then be back and ready to focus. Good advice.

I think people are being a bit unfair here. Although the LW described it as gossip, I don't think s/he's talking about the kind of malicious gossip about people's personal lives that can be so destructive in a workplace. I think what she's talking about is the normal talking about work and the people there that is critical for bonding. There is a big difference both in tone and in appropriateness. To complain about an assignment, or the new HR director, or the boss's new marketing strategy to one's co-workers is appropriate; to discuss your boss's affair (and the personality failings that led to it) is not. From this letter, I don' think these people are being inappropriate at all.

I've been on both sides of the boss-distance question, and I don't think there's ever any straightforward answer. It depends on the environment - a boss who's never social with employees is seen as stand-offish and remote; a boss who tries socializing is crowding the employees.
The only thing I'm fairly certain of is that "gossip time" is NOT a company benefit...So, stop waiting for your boss to give it to you.

I had a coworker who was promoted up the chain to boss. He didn't realize that meant he was no longer 'one of the gang.' He barged in on a couple of group lunches with some assistants. I could clearly see they were uncomfortable and felt they needed to be on their best behavior. I had to explain to this coworker that it was harder for the assistants to relax and enjoy their lunch with him there. Because I was a peer it was easier for me to do that. If I were one of the assistants, I don't know if I would have been able to tell him.

Isn't there an episode of Friends about this? Sometimes the boss just doesn't realize he or she is the boss. And the big boss is never just 'one of the gang.'

I agree with Nancy G here. There is nothing wrong with talking to your co-workers about a situation(s) about work. Complaining does happen in the workplace! From what the letter reads, she's not gossiping.

I had the same problem at work with my boss eating with a couple of us at lunch! It was so uncomfortable, I couldn't relax!! We started eating out, eating at our desks, going at different times, etc. It worked, he finally got the hint. Hey - all you bosses out there - we don't like you eating with us! Let us alone for the short amount of time we have to ourselves during the work-day

Who are all these people saying to stop gossiping and "be professional"? Everyone talks about everyone else, in work or not. It's human nature.

Bah humbug has the smartest answer. If you can somehow use it to your advantage.... However, it would be SO annoying to have your boss eat with you. It's like not getting a break at all. I'm not sure I see how you could get past the feeling of violation of the boss being there to take good advantage of it. Maybe Bah humbug could give some examples.

The suggestion (#4) to TELL your boss not to eat lunch with you is absolutely the funniest thing I have read on the message boards all week. Are you for real? Way to attract attention to yourself as not being a team player and gossip monger! That's ridiculous. There's NO diplomatic way to tell someone "please don't eat lunch with me" without sounding like you're straight out of "Mean Girls." I'd like to read the letter about what happens to you AFTER you try that. Thanks for the laugh.

Janice M, how is using "the time to gossip about our bosses' failings" not gossip? My head hurts trying to understand your logic.

I understand why employees may want some downtime. But the fact that so many of you are looking to defend this person's desire to rip her boss apart in a place as public as the company cafeteria is just shocking to me. I guess it explains why this type of ridiculous and unprofessional behavior is so rampant. You want to complain about work? Do it off-site where you can't be overheard by your colleagues. Seriously.

JKR - Any boss's failings, complaining, disliking an assignment, over worked, under paid, the boss's pet, etc. is normal chatter around the work place - not gossip. It happens in every office everywhere. Gossip is defined as spreading rumors about others that are not true. So if that's what she's doing then it is wrong. I don't see that here. If she's "discussing" issues about her boss IT IS NOT GOSSIP. And if others are listening in on other conversations, well that is just wrong too.
Sorry to make your head hurt. seriously.

okay- call it what you will- talking behind people's back is not good for morale and isn't professional.
Don't do it in the workplace. go out somewhere or meet after work. Doing it in the office is asking for trouble.
You're complaining about someone. You feel like you can't complain to their face, so you complain behind their back. If you do this every day for 10 years in the comapny cafeteria, someone is eventually going to notice and spread the word.
I complain about my work, boss, or co-workers to my friends and husband AWAY FROM WORK. Plus if you complain often enough about the people you work with, eventually your co-workers are going to wonder what you behind THEIR backs as well. It breeds distrust.
Look at it this way: what if it wasn't their boss or supervisor but another co-worker they liked to mock/complain about who was suddenly sitting with them?
Take it out of the company lunch room. It's not the place to gossip/talk behind people's back/complain
Sorry to make YOUR head hurt with the reality that the way you conduct yourself on company property reflects on you professionally. If you have no problem with people seeing you as someone who relishes their whining time, so be it.

The new study found that gossip in the workplace also tended to be overwhelmingly negative, but the insults were more subtle and the conversations less predictable, says Tim Hallett, a sociologist at Indiana University. Dr. Hallett conducted the study along with Dr. Eder and Brent Harger of Albright College.

“Office gossip can be a form of reputational warfare,” Dr. Hallett says. “It’s like informal gossip, but it’s richer and more elaborate. There are more layers to it because people practice indirectness and avoidance. People are more cautious because they know they can lose not just a friendship but a job.”

During his two years studying the group dynamics at a Midwestern elementary school, which allowed him access on condition of anonymity, Dr. Hallett found that the teachers became so comfortable with him and his camera that they would freely insult their bosses during one-on-one interviews. But at the teachers’ formal group meetings, where they knew that another teacher might report their insults to the principal, they were more discreet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/science/03tier.html

Ada asked for examples.

I had another paragraph that I cut: it was about how the reality of the workforce today is that likeable people get promoted, and are the last to get laid off. It's no longer about your competence only. When forced to make a decision to lay off one of two equally competent employees, you can bet that the employee who is likeable will keep her job.

When in doubt, simply ask the boss about himself. Everyone likes to talk about themselves. Perhaps you were talking about your favorite t.v. program when he sat down. Ask him what his favorite is. Does he have kids? Ask about them. Ask about his lunch - does he always brown bag? Is he into sports and you are too? Then bond over sports chit-chat.

Offer up a little about your own personal life, within tactful and appropriate boundaries for work. When layoff time comes around, it may make all the difference that he remembers that you, too, were born and raised in the Midwest, or both have children around the same age who play soccer. You never know.

If the conversation turns to work, always always be as upbeat and positive as possible! Management will lay off negative nelly's and worry warts first, because they hurt morale - and much worse than gossip. If you do have constructive criticism, worries, or concerns, don't bring them up in front of your coworkers at lunchtime. Save it for a private conversation with the boss.

As for gossip, best advice I ever got was "only ever gossip UP."

Gossip or no, when my co-workers and I have lunch in the cafeteria and our boss does not join us, we speak freely about things or people we might be struggling with, including our boss. As the newest member of the team, I've been repeatedly reassured by these conversations, as many things I've taken personally that my boss has said or done, really turn out to be character traits of his. I like my boss and occasionally he will join us, but when he does, the conversation is by its nature much more reserved. You can't say "boy, steve from accounting is really mad that I haven't finished his report yet" when the boss is there, it's that simple. The boss should respect that employees need time to clear their heads and maybe conspire a little as peers.

I would delicately, and in private, have a word with your boss. Just say that it can sometimes be a bit awkward to have the boss present on your brief time off, and that it's nothing personal against him. He may not realize that he's putting you and your colleagues in a tough position. Some bosses sort of need to be reminded that they are, indeed, the boss, and therefore not necessarily able to fulfill the buddy role with their co-workers, even if they want to.

erwot- but is personal and against him. they don't want him there so that they can talk about him. to tell him otherwise would be a lie. are advocating lying to your boss? if your primary concerns were his feelings, then I would think you would advocate for stopping the toxic gossip/behind-the-back talk.

Oh please. It's the company cafeteria and people have noticed you biddies gossiping and it got back to him. It does not look good for him to have his group of employees seen acting this way, so he's diffusing you. Or, his boss told him that his upward feedback was not great, so he's working on that by diffusing your little circle of negativity. He's the boss because he's smarter than you, so his new habit is his way of indicating that something has to change. Your lunch behavior, your work behavior, the way you review him...something. Think of this letter from him, "I have 3 female employees, some quite experienced, who sit together in the cafeteria each day gossiping. It looks bad for me, even if they are not talking about me, it gives a bad and exclusionary feeling to our department. What can I do to take this clique down a notch or get them to at least do their kvetching out of the office?"

While I think that it may not be completely appropriate for your boss to be sitting with you at lunch (I think if it kind of like your boss adding you on facebook or something- definitely an intrusion), you are also an adult and should know better than to gossip AT the office. I agree that because this is so out of the blue, someone probably overheard and ratted your group out, which is why the boss is now joining you for lunch.

Solution? Either eat outside of work or try to make the best of it. And it also may not be a bad idea to reconsider what upsets you most about this: is it the lack of privacy? The poor management of your boss? Because the way your letter is phrased indicates that you are most bothered by the fact that you now cannot gossip about the boss at lunch, rather than problems with your boss in general.

Erwot, Please explain how you could possibly tell someone "we don't want to eat lunch with you anymore" and have them NOT take that personally? Laughable.

I can only assume the LW is in earnest, but seriously if you're that experienced of a professional this situation can not be mysterious or unique, and you must already have coping strategies in place. Clearly it is an opportunity to increase your rapport with your boss, or a chance to find out more about other opportunities in the company, or informal higher-level strategy discussions, or any number of other topics your boss may not be able to discuss with his own peers or manager for the same reasons you don't want him eating with you. If you don't want to take the opportunity then eat somewhere else, eat with a larger more variable crowd, do something else.

If he is eating with you because negative feedback about your clique has reached him then you had better make him feel welcome, and quick. Avoiding him under those circumstances will only reinforce the antagonism or conflict between boss and employee. He may not want to eat with you either and find it as unpleasant as you do, but being a boss is still a job and the responsibilities in many ways extend far beyond just deparment performance on reports or metrics or whatever. He may actually be helping to save your job by trying to address a problem that has gotten the attention of upper management.

Go for a walk with your coworkers at lunch. That's what I do.

Our boss eats lunch with us sometimes. I, personally, find it a little awkward, but no one else does as I am the only employee who did not know her as a coworker -- in fact she hired me to take her open old job. I welcome the chance to see her as a person, not just my boss, and it's easy enough to do that because it only happens occasionally.

Anyone here ever BEEN the boss? Let me tell you that it's pretty awful to walk into a small lunchroom at a medium sized office and have the previously lively chatter go cold and dead because you walked into the room.

Should bosses only fraternize with those at their level? The LW claims to be in a small division, which in circumstance can translate over to any number of other workplace scenarios.

As a family member of a family-owned business with over 50 employees, I can tell you that sometimes it's lonely at the top. Use the coping strategies suggested here, but also have a heart. Do you ONLY gripe about work during lunch? No discussions of local sports teams, tv shows, fashion trends, or your kids? Sometimes improving relations between supervisor and supervised, when handled in the right way, can do wonders for office morale in general.

Your boss is a person, too.

Excluding your boss, or any co-worker, from your lunch table is not the same as discouraging a scary stranger from joining you at a table at Starbucks. Unless it's a one-time thing, when you're downing a quick sandwich during a working lunch, there is no way of turning someone away without offending them. Don't just suddenly move your clique's luncheon offsite; that would only be slightly more subtle than putting a "no bosses allowed" sign on your lunch table. Offending your boss is not nice, or smart, since it will probably have consequences.

I think Nick is heading in the right direction with this. Informal time with your boss should not be seen as a negative. Take it as a time to strengthen your relationship with him/her, build a rapport, learn things about his/her perspective. It may even make time with your boss more pleasant. Assuming that everyone behaves professionally, it might improve your standing with the boss and in the company. (If people are behaving unprofessionally, then you've got a bigger issue than an unwelcome visitor at your lunch table and you've probably addressed your letter to the wrong advice column.)

If you truly need downtime during your workday, go for a walk, go to a restaurant, take a lunchtime yoga class, go to a park with your sandwich or sit in your car and play solitaire on your personal laptop. If you need to vent about work, do it off premises and after hours. Don't expect downtime sitting in the company cafeteria in the middle of the workday. If you're enjoying your sandwich and oreos on company property, sit at a big table and be ready to welcome anyone who will join you: your coworkers, your boss, and gasp! even people from other departments. You might be surprised how building relationships outside of your clique will help improve your work environment, and maybe decrease your need to vent. Also, being more welcoming at the lunch table will mean a larger, more varied group day-to-day, so if one day you and your small group of friends need to sneak off for a griping session at the 99, your boss might not even notice.

@ #31: Nothing in the letter indicates the gender of the employees. I've heard the male "biddies" at the office have a good go at the personal lives and habits of their co-workers when they didn't think there were women in earshot. Your assumption that only women participate in the office back-stab game is ridiculously offensive.

I agree that all you guys sound like a clique. You need to welcome the boss and generally be more welcoming to others. Mix up your lunches - some days a couple of you eat together in the cafeteria without the rest, some go out together, a few go for a walk. Maybe you want to be daring and *gasp* poke your head around the boss' door and *invite* him: 'hey - Joan and Jim and I are heading out for a walk, would you like to join us?' Make a virtue out of a necessity and help him feel included.

You do not need to be 'our gang' all the time. You need to let in some fresh air - there's really no oxygen at the moment. This will have the benefit that your boss won't be able to eat with 'the gang' every day, but he won't be excluded either. That doesn't mean you shouldn't all sometimes have lunch together - but for goodness sakes, mix it up. This will be a less pressured way to get to know your boss, keep some of your own time and yet keep your boss feeling welcomed.

It seems rather rude of the employees to talk about their boss behind his back. Bosses are people too! Just wait until they are in his position.

I see this a bit diffferently. You call your boss "insensitive" but it seems to me like he has recognized a problem in your communications and is going out of his way to be available to you for feedback. You complain that he is hogging your private time. Well, he's giving HIS private time up in order to be available to you! Why don't you try actually TALKING to him the next time he joins you? He may surprise you with a sense of humor, more awareness of the "situation" you are describing than you know of, and he may turn out to be not such a bad guy. I agree with RH - I have been the employee. I have also seen the boss. AND I have also been the head of HR, having to smooth over boss/employee relations. Yours is not the only important perspective here.

Typo in my last remark. Third to last sentence should read I have BEEN the boss, not SEEN. And for the record I am ashamed to say that in my (much younger) day, I was once a cliq-y gossiper. Thankfully I grew up quickly.

I agree with the posters that said talking trash about your boss in your workplace cafeteria is bad form. Aside from that topic, there's no reason why you can't continue with your typical conversations in front of him.

If you really don't enjoy his company, and if you are all women, start talking about "womanly" issues. That's sure to make him think twice about joining you!