Cars chat: teen driver safety
Local driving instructor and racing ace Brandon Bogart joined Boston.com on Aug. 21 to chat about teen driver safety and comment on state laws targeting young drivers. The following is an unedited transcript of the chat.
bob_anonymous: what is the youngest age at which you can operate a car?
Brandon_Bogart: Bob, Thanks for your question. I figured I would start off with an easy one. In MA new drivers are allowed to get a learner's permit on or after their 16th birthday. With the permit they can drive with a family member over 25 riding in the front passenger seat. After 6 months they are eligible to get their license IF they've completed a drivers ed program and done all the neccessary training with their parents. Without drivers ed you must wait until you are 18 to be eligible for a license.
northbororesidentent: What is the difference between your program as opposed to Central Mass Saftey Council's "skidz" school?
Brandon_Bogart: Northbororesident:
Brandon_Bogart: A couple of people are asking this question so I'll try to answer everyone's together. The biggest difference between the Central Mass Safety council's "Skidz" school and our program is that the safety council's program is not a state approved "Driver Skills Development program". This is important for several reasons, one being that taking their program does not make you eligible for the insurance and other benefits of a program which is approved. Most importantly the approved programs like In Control's meet strict standards for quality, safety and effectiveness. State approved programs are required to have larger sites for safety and to allow programs to operate at "real world" speeds and are required to teach the most important crash prevention skills and attitudes.
Brandon_Bogart: Additionally, it's important to consider the term "skid school" or "skidz school" has some downsides. To a large degree it has been proving that certain types of skid training (specifically skid pad training) have a negative effect as large as their benefit. Our program and other state approved Driver Skills Development programs carefully avoid these potential problems and focuses on those skills which only provide a benefit in safety. In fact, one of our partners, the Mass State Auto Dealers Charitable Foundation (www.msadcf.org) recently stopped using the term skidschool because of the confusion it causes.
bob_anonymous: What are good teenage cars? Are SUVS ok?
Brandon_Bogart: Bob,
Brandon_Bogart: Another great question. In general the best car for safety and practicality is a mid-size sedan equipped with ABS brakes. The newer the better. Toyota Camry, Honda Accord, Nissan Altima, Ford Tauras etc.
Brandon_Bogart: SUV's are a bad choice for new drivers. Their extra weight and height makes them difficult to control and with new drivers it is extra difficult to deal with those added challenges.
Delray: How prevalent is alcohol use in teen crashes?
Brandon_Bogart: Delray,
Brandon_Bogart: A special thanks to MADD and SADD programs when I say that drugs and alcohol are the cause of less than 7% of teen crashes overall, and less than 35% of fatal crashes. Those statistics should be 0, but the vast majority of teen crashes, even the bad ones, are caused by poor driving habits or skills. Not drugs or alcohol.
satisfiedparent: My son went through a driving school out of Westboro that you guys are associated with and LOVED both programs (so I thank you.) Do you offer any extended classes for the rest of my family?
Brandon_Bogart: Satisfied parent. You're welcome!! We don't offer extended programs but state approved drivers skills development programs like ours are perfect for the whole family. If you haven't had the first hand experience of learning how to use ABS brakes or respond to a highway emergency it will be a great experience and we've found that experienced drivers can benefit even more from some of our habit changing drills like anti-tailgating and proper seating positions. We have drivers of all ages participating in and benefitting from our regular enrollment programs. Plus, most of the insurance benefits are open to drivers of all ages.
ConcernedDad: Brandon, I have seen new reports of your teen training and have one friend who's teen has gone through the class. Once a teen has gone through your class, how can a teen safely practice the car control maneuvers to help further their skills?
Brandon_Bogart: First off I have to remind you (and your friend) that many of the aggressive skills we teach are absolutely not appropriate to practice on the real roads, they are for emergency use only. The reason the training is repetive during the class is to ensure a muscle memory that you can use in an emergency situation. An appropriate follow up if you feel you need more practice is to talk to a "Drivers Skills Development program" about additional lessons, perhaps in a private lesson environment. Beyond that though the habits and attitudes practiced during the class can and should be practiced regularly on your own. You don't need an instructor to practice the proper following distances, seating postions, general awareness etc.
Delray: Also, what should parents look for when deciding what driver ed program to enroll their children in?
Brandon_Bogart: The best way to choose a drivers ed program is to talk to students and parents who have already been through the process. We've found most are more than happy to give a candid assesment of the school they worked with. Beyond that don't be afraid to talk directly to the school you're considering for your child, with a few simple questions you can usually get a good feel for the quality and caring that will go into your childs driving education. Also, there are several schools which partner directly with drivers skills development programs like In Control's which ensures you're student gets comprehensive training including crash reduction skills and attitudes.
Tim: What is the most common mistake teen drivers make that cause them to crash so often?
Brandon_Bogart: Far and away the most cited cause of crashes among new drivers is "Driver error." In fact it's more than 90%. While that can mean a lot of things it does show that with more focus, practice and training there is no reason we as a society shouldn't be able to reduce the crashes by all and especially new drivers.
rispeedracer: Just because a new driver only has little time on the road sometimes they are even safer than the adults that drive...do you think that these new laws should be lesser on the teenagers?..let the first ticket be a fine then suspend the lisence after that? how would you feel about the laws being equal to all drivers in mass?
Brandon_Bogart: I'm not sure what you mean that sometimes new drivers "are even safer than adults" but i think i understand your concern. Let me put it this way; as a group teens have proven to be poor drivers. In my opinion much of the problem is a lack of training but also there are many bad decisions made by teens that cause too many car crashes. Because of this is is fair that teens as a group be subject to stiffer guidlines for their driving. If you personally are a safe driver than you shouldn't worry about the stiffer penalties as they only apply to drivers who are driving irresponsibly, or not being safe. Bottom line, be careful, don't speed and follow the normal rules that all drivers are supposed to follow and you will not have to worry about the penalities etc.
Jeff: Can In Control Advanced Driver training really help give kids the tool to drive safer? How come you are so successful where others fail at this?
Brandon_Bogart: Excellent question. As with any activity training can be an important tool to improving. But just like anything else, lack of training, or even bad training can create bad results. The key to In Control's success in reducing crashes among our graduates is that we are focused on providing training that addresses specific problems and avoid skills that can be mis-used or create problematic drivers. Because of this focus and specificity we see regular crash reductions of 70% among graduates.
nick: I am a tutor, and have neighbors with teens. 90 per cent of them have totalled their cars, more than once, after getting their licences. I live on a narrow street with no sidewalks. I am afraid to walk. I respect speed limits, and am afraid to drive with these speed demons with cell phones. Why don't the police do more to protect me? What can I do?
Brandon_Bogart: Nick, unfortunately the police are probably just too busy and overwhelmed to watch all these areas and teens all the time. Because of this it's very important that as a society of drivers we "police" ourselves and set expectations, rules and conseqences that encourage the proper behavior. I would talk first with the drivers themselves and respectfully let them know how you feel. I would also follow up with their parents and finally with the local police. For parents who may be reading, don't forget that you can establish your own rules for driving that can complement those of the state. For example, my parents had a rule from day one that if I was ever found to even have alcohol im my car, regardless of whether i'd been drinking or not, they would take back the car they bought for me and I would have to buy my own. No matter who found out, whether a cop decided it or not that was the rule and the penalties. Needless to say I never had any alcohol in my car, ever.
thedon: how can we get the word out to the families about the importance of your program?
Brandon_Bogart: The best wsy to spread the word on driving safety and additional training is through community organizations. We at In Control along with other organizations like the Mass State Auto Dealers Charitable Foundation (www.msadcf.org), SafeRoads Alliance (www.saferoadsalliance.org) and others are happy to talk in the community about the scope of the problem and the answers that exist. If you are passionate talk to school officails, influential parents, legislators, and other important individuals in the community and encourage them to get involved in spreading the awareness of the need to reduce driving crashes.
Shelby: How much can I save off our family's auto insurance and do those discounts only apply to my teen driver?
Brandon_Bogart: The simple answer is that most drivers in MA are eligble for discounts between 5 and 10%. I highly recommend talking to a trusted insurance agent about your insurance and how to work with the company you're insured with. Finally, if you want the whole story about insurance discounts for additional training in MA you can check out http://www.driveincontrol.com/InsurancePartners.html.
Concerned: How can a JOL driver gain more experience if they are taken off the road after the first incident. I am all for JOL licenses to contain penalties for not abiding by the laws but do you think such laws are leaving a bad license record for the JOL drivers that are in a learning curve, for instance the ones that are stopped for being 10MPH over the speed limit.
Brandon_Bogart: I do agree that taking new drivers completely out of driving for an extended period of time for an incident is a bad idea. To be honest I think it was an oversidght of the JOL bill, I know it was not something that was even mentioned during the hearings and councils that were held in the development of the bill. I have a feeling it will be amended in the future to allow JOL drivers to drive like a permitted driver during their "suspension" period, thereby gaining experience but having the penalty of losing their license. Besides that I do think the severity of the penalties is having some deterent effect on unsafe driving practicices for new drivers. I and most of us within the driver training industry applaud the state's efforts to first and foremost increase training requirements and benefits for new drivers but also to create strict penalties for improper behaviors.
thedon: Are you affiliated with the driving schools?
Brandon_Bogart: We at In Control believe strongly that all new drivers need to take a drivers education course and that our training complements those programs. We have partnered with several outstanding Drivers Ed schools in MA and appreciate their support and encourage parents and students to work with Drivers Ed programs that can help you get the additional safety training provided by Drivers Skill Development Programs in MA.
NorthShore_Dad: Do see a need to address driving distractions, such as cell phones/texting, etc, in state law?
Brandon_Bogart: I think that a law can show what we find acceptable or unacceptable as a society, but I don't necessarily think it will fix a problem. The larger problem is that people need to agree on the need to pay more attention to driving, and specifically on the unacceptability of crashes. It is far too common for someone to shrug of an "accident" as no big deal when we should be striving to eliminate all driving "accidents" and paying attention is the first step to that goal. Also, hands-free devices are often touted as an answer but do not really fix the problem of distraction while on the phone and driving.
__: How is it possible that insurance in mandatory when insurance itself is a
Brandon_Bogart: This is a complicated question that I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer. The best I can say is that mandating insurance for all drivers in MA does bring premiums down for most drivers and certainly makes it financially safer to drive for everyone.
BostonDotCom: All: Brandon's still here taking questions, so please feel free to send one.
HPDE: Brandon, you charge $300 for 4 hours and teens are not driving their own vehicle. How do you justify the large price differene between your program, and those run by non-profit car clubs which cost a fraction as much, and are a full day of driving, with the teen in their own car?
Brandon_Bogart: I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this answer. I am a big proponent of additional training, but as I mentioned earlier to the quality of training is important to the outcome. In the case of the local car clubs and their programs although their hearts are in the right place and I'm personal friends with many of the participants there are several downsides that should be recognized.
Brandon_Bogart: Most importantly is the value and effectiveness of the skills being taught. The difference in cost is actually negligable considering the importance of the skill. Think about it, how many parents would choose the lesser model bulletproof vest for their kid headed to Iraq vs. the model that costs $200 more but is proven more effective. It is no exageration to say that driver training is equally as important for new drivers.
Brandon_Bogart: Most of these programs revolve around a curriclulum that includes elements that have proven to create more dangerous drivers, including skid pad training. They are also missing the most important crash reduction elements of learning at real world speeds, a hands-on tailgating drill, effective backing up training and others.
Brandon_Bogart: The training of the trainers is another important difference. All of our trainers go through a rigorous screening process that includes back-ground checks, drug testing and drivers history checks. Then they spend upwards of 70 hours training to effectively train students in the neccessary skills. Most car clubs have no training for the trainers, they are volunteers (again heart in the right place) who may or may not be providing the right answers to drivers.
Brandon_Bogart: In addition to these program failures there is a big difference in the safety we provide to participants versus that of the local driving clubs. Each of our training facilities has to be approved for safety by the RMV and those standards ensure that there is over 10 acres of pavement for 5 or fewer cars to perform the training. What this means is that there is space to make a mistake without having a serious consequence.
Brandon_Bogart: Also, you mention one important difference. Most of the car club programs require you to use your own vehicle. There are several downsides to this, the most glaring being the wear and tear on the vehicle. Done properly this type of training stresses a vehicle and its components. To put it in perspective we replace the tires every 6 days of training1 There is a significant cost to your vehicle being used for the training, think about the value of a set of tires, brake pads, etc.
speeddemon: Brandon, I have a fairly late model Volvo R wagon that I am thinking about gifting my 16 year old son this year. I've modifed the car slightly and it is very fast. Do you think the speed will be offset by the Volvo safety? Is this a good first teen car?
Brandon_Bogart: I am a more afraid of your screenname than your car :). In general I believe a car is only as fast as the driver wants it to be. That being said it is good to aknowledge that some cars are more likely to prompt a driver to speeding. In your case I think it would be more important to evaluate your son than your car. Does he have a predisposition to speeding? (did he learn it from you?) Has he had any speeding tickets? Is he ALWAYS responsible behind the wheel. Have a talk with your son, set some rules and if you agree together that it is a good car for him than go for it. On a side note if he, you, or both have an affinity for speed I am a strong proponent of exercising that appropriately. There are lots of ways to do this, whether it be racing cars in sanctioned events, go-karting, or even seemingly unrelated things like skiing and mountain biking it is better to do those activities and "get it out" than to driver fast on the roads. We all share the roads and they are not for speeding.
go_sox: Do you know if the accident rate of teens who attend your courses are lower than that of teens that do not attend?
Brandon_Bogart: yes, Unfortunately the crash rate for new drivers in MA who do not attend a Drivers Skills development program averages 43$ in the first year and 37% in the second year. Drivers Skills development programs have been shown to reduce those crashes by 70% and that is why the state and the state's insurance companies are encouraging as many drivers as possible to participate in this type of training.
El: Brandon - I've lived in the MetroWest my entire life and I've always seen dangerous driving including speeding, tailgating, and running red lights. Do you think observing this behavior as a child and teen affects what kind of driver they become? Especially when it comes to speeding, because I see a lot of people being tailgated who are going the speed limit.
Brandon_Bogart: I think that more broadly we all need to consider that we are a society of drivers. Even though we don't talk to the other drivers on the road we do communicate with them. The bad driving habits you describe do serve to lower the standards of the society of drivers. Parents especially need to remember that from the youngest age kids see how they drive and will most likely copy it. In the larger sense the more we as individuals commit to being better, more responsbile and more thoughtful drivers the better the roads will be for all of us.
BostonDotCom: That's all the time we have today. Thanks for joining us, and stay tuned for more chats on Boston.com.
