AAA CAR DOCTOR JOHN PAUL 08/127/2005

September Chat Cars chat: Gas prices, hybrids

JohnPaul (Moderator)
11:56AM The AAA "Car Doctor" is in--lets chat about gas prices and hybrid cars.

Doug
12:02PM Wondering when you think the "break even" point might come for hybrid vehicles. I *tried* to buy one this year, but even with gas at $3-4/gallon, couldn't justify the additional up-front cost given current incentives and tax breaks. None of the "big" manufacturers offered their various discounts on hybrids because of supply and demand.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:04PM Doug, I just did the math on a hybrid Escape and it would take about 6 years to make up the difference. BTW the Escape is quite good and very clean and that could make up the difference for the extra money--fun to drive and good to the earth

gasguzzler
12:05PM Hello John, There seems to be so much hype about hybrids. These cars are selling at sticker price or higher and are significantly more money than the same vehicle w/o hybrid technology. That being said, unless you drive more than 30k miles per year for instance, the hybrid isn't worth the extra money (even with the tax credit). There are several reliable vehicles out there that offer exceptional mileage w/o hybrid technology, like the Corolla or the Civic.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:07PM gasguzzler, you may be right if all you are looking at is better milage. If that is the only case find a Jetta, Passat diesel. It is intersting to note the last Avalon that I drove got the same milage as a Accord Hybrid

drivesafe
12:07PM Doug: Here is an article that tries to answer your question. http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/09/23/hybrid_alternatives/inde x.html I don't agree with it completely, but worth a read.

Doug
12:08PM Guess it depends on what you're using for mileage figures and how much you drive. I would agree with what gasguzzler just said. You have to drive *too* much to offset the cost. I drive a Corrolla now, and have average almost 40 MPG for the 2.5 years I've owned it. Not really a question, I guess, just a response. :) For an actual question, why does the Massachusetts restriction on the sale of diesel vehicles expire? I tried to buy one of those this year and you can't... at least not a new one.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:10PM Doug I was at the new Passat intro last week and they said until they (VW) can meet the new restriction they have no plans to do a Passat diesel. Much of this is based on NOX emissions and a new low sulfer fuel.

gasguzzler
12:10PM Thanks for your response, John. I gotta guess that 95% of hybrid purchasers are worried about rising fuel costs and their own money....rather than the environment. Corolla gets 40+ miles per gallon on the highway....

drivesafe
12:10PM What would it take companies to introduce other types of fuel ? Hydrogen/CNG ... ofcourse the cars have to be equipped with the engines to consume 'em, but not sure when these fuels will be introduced.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:13PM drivesafe, hydrogen is still years away, As far as I know it takes twice the energy to make half as much hydrogen. CNG is great easy to convert existing engine and the USA has plenty. It is just the delevery structure is not in place. Many years ago it look like CNG would take off and then gas dropped to less than a dollar a gallon---hummmmmm

driver
12:13PM What is the break even point for leather seats and upgraded radio or A/C? Why the obsession with break even for hybrid option when most people don't apply the same logic to other features?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:17PM driver, when did logic enter the picture? Some people like leather seats, comfy interiors and Bose sound systems and they will pay for it. It is just this reason that companies like Toyota/Lexus are selling some of their hybrids like a premium trim (same for the Accord) More power, better performance, more cost and it happens to run clean.

Doug
12:17PM Thanks for the link. I'll take a look. :)

sc
12:17PM I drive an Avalanche and a Tahoe. I want to dump the Avalanche? A Prius is out of the question due to it being sold out? What should I do? Bike into Cambridge?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:19PM sc, anything is within walking distance if you have the time (thank you steven wright) Perhaps don't dump the Avalance but try to use it a practically as possible. Car pool, combine trips make sure it is in the best possible shape, switch to synthetic oil (helps just a little) and drive the speed limit.

Doug
12:20PM Europe has been burning the low-sulfur fuels for a couple of years, I believe and it's only Massachusetts and California that currently restrict sales of new diesel vehicles. I could buy one in Rhode Island, just couldn't register it in Mass. Silly considering their efficiency and the simpler distillation process for diesel fuels. Not to mention the whole "waste oil" fuel option for those vehicles.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:21PM Doug I agree. it is Mass. and four other states. It looked like the feds stopped the introduction of low sulfer fuel---but I'll need to check that fact

electraglide
12:21PM Has anyone done any comparisons on the cost of maintaing a hybrid, for say 100,000 miles. Especially, here in New England with the cold winters. How long will a battery pack last and how much does it cost to replace.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:24PM electraglide, the battery keep getting better, It is my understanding the most are lasting eight years. In theory when batteries wear out the replacement will be affordable. Currently the Prius battery pack is $5000.00--or it was last year.

Presto
12:24PM I have a "flex fuel" vehicle - a 2000 Ford Ranger. Do think that E85 will ever be available in New England?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:25PM Presto, E85 maybe someday, but I havn't seen even a hint of it here in New England

electraglide
12:25PM Hey, don't forget all the particulate pollution from diesels. Maybe out in the coutry, but probably not a good application for metropoliton areas.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:26PM electraglide, that is one of the reason that the manufacturers are looking at particulate traps and NOX filters and additives.

sc
12:26PM Thank you. I do use Mobil One Synthetic Oil for both trucks. I I did put a dual exhaust system on the Avalanche to improve the mpg by 2.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:26PM sc, every liitle bit helps

MerryMonks
12:27PM My aunt has a first generation Prius and she absolutley loves it. I haven't heard of any problems accept maybe a flat tire. The only thing she doesn't like is that she doesn't feel all that safe on the highway because it is so little.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:27PM MerryMonks, it is a small car but the safety record is quite good.

JohnC
12:27PM When will fuel cell techology be available to the masses? What about converting to CNG in cars? Any advantages to it?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:30PM JohnC, I think we need to see some commercial applications ---generators and lighting plants to make the hydrogen production worthwhile. We need to make hydrogen more cost effective. I have driven two pure hydrogen/cars cars and found them delightful

Doug
12:30PM RE: Particulates. New diesels are significantly cleaner than they used to be, although probably not as good as the "cleaner" gas vehicles. On the other hand, with the vastly increased fuel economy they've gotta be better than than a Hummer or Suburban getting 8-12 MPG with one person sitting in it.

DM
12:31PM Prius? What's your opinion? It doesn't have a gas model to compare against, only other cars in same approx price bracket. Is it safe vs other cars in it's size class? Is it a decent choice for a kid's car? What about long distance riding? And what about government rebates for 2006? Consumer Reports gave it it's highest 'buy' rating for safety and reliability. Your opinion? Very interested, but not quite sure...help!

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:35PM DM, I like the Prius externally it compare to the Corolla but useful space it has about the same interior room as a Camry, although not as comfy. The PRius and other hybrids do best around town when the hybrid tech can really shine. On the highway depending how you drive the milage can be as high as 45mpg and as low as 25 if you drive with your foot to the floor. Most hybrid owners make a game out of getting good fuel economy and average 50+ As for the rebate it is a tax incentive check with the IRS for more details. As far as a kids cars lots of safety front wheel drive in some state gets to drive in the car pool lane

drivesafe
12:36PM On CNG, I think its more of a political stance than Infrastructure. A third world country like Pakistan has tons of cars running on CNG, and if they can put up an infrastructure, why cant' we do it here in US? I think its more political than anything .. !!

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:36PM drivesafe ---could be

electraglide
12:36PM Eight years would be outstanding for the battery life. I assume that like most recharchable batteries the capacity diminishes slowly over time. So after say 5-7 years it would be showing signs of 'slowing down' I imagine. How does this behavior influence the gas savings over time? .i.e. if the battery can't hold a charge you now only have your 1.5 liter engine for power and I'm guessing your foot is to the floor when you try to merge onto 93 in Boston.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:40PM electraglide, I have driven one of the very first hybrids and found the perfomance pretty much unchanged--It is my understanding the Toyota is offering a very favorable battery warranty just to help assure people 8 years or 100,000 miles

dew
12:40PM I used to have a 84' t-bird that could take 22 gallons and average 25 mpg. => 500+ mile range. Cost of gas is one thing, but stopping 2x a week in my cherokee for gas is the biggest pain. Why aren't there any ratings for cars with respect to overall miles travelled before refueling? Can you name some good performers within the mid sized suv / wagon market that would still carry a class 4 hitch and 4 wheel drive?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:42PM dew I'm sure there is something out there but with realestate so valuable under a car gas tank size has dropped some. Most car companies are happy to get 300 miles per tankful

dew
12:43PM What are your thoughts on the displacement on demand system? I have a daimler chrysler connection so I should remain faithful. I just wish my cherokee or the commander for that matter could get 25mpg highway.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:44PM dew, I have driven both the Chrysler and the GM and found both to be transparent. forget everything you heard about the old caddy 4-6-8 the new system seems to work very well

jerry springer
12:44PM My mechanic says taht I may have a busted or cracked spring. He told me that it is not a saftey issue, Is this correct?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:46PM jerry Springer, broken springs should be replaced and can be dangerous.

dew
12:47PM what are your thoughts on the partnership between gm, daimlerchrysler and now bmw (?) for developing another gas saving engine. Will this be a hybrid? I am not familiar with their pursued technology...

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:48PM dew partnerships come and go, whenever tech sharing is used to improve the end result it is great. Although I don't know how often it really happens.

FutureMan
12:48PM What have you heard about Hydrogen? I read some articles where it is said to be decades away, and others with scientists saying its closer than we think. We know fuel cell technology works and is getting better all the time. As a a side note, why is Detroit so against better fuel efficiency? Japan is passing them by quickly.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:51PM futureman, Hydrogen certainly has its share of issues for both cost and production. It sounded so easy make it from water--not that easy, not that cheap. As far as Detroit, GM has 20 models that get over 20 miles per gallon and many over 30. BTW the last Buick Lesabre I drove on a trip got 31 mpg--not bad.

electraglide
12:51PM JohnPaul. I think you hit on a really important topic that people buying a hybrid need to consider. If most of their driving is highway they won't get the savings that city drivers would experience. One really needs to take advantage of the regenerative braking to get the added fuel economy.

dew
12:51PM [..new system seems to work very well ] => not in the category of a low emission / hybrid vehicle in terms of mgp performance though, right?

electraglide
12:51PM How does the displacement on demand work? I do remember the caddys, and remember that they had lots of problems.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:53PM electraglide send me an email at jpaul@aaasne.com and I'll send you some info. Most of the Caddy were convertoed to run as six cylinders but that was in the days of mechanical parts and no computers

DM
12:53PM I know that this is comparing apples and oranges, but between a 2006 Prius, Camry sedan, and Accord sedan (not hybrid), what would you choose and why? Or what else would you consider and why?

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:56PM DM the Prius is new technology (for the poeple who bought the first flat screen tv's) the Camry is dependable comfort--some say boring and the accord has great build quility handles well but smaller the the Camry. The Prius with the hatchback can do double duty at the home improvment store (within reason).

electraglide
12:56PM On another note. A car you don't hear much about is the Honda Civic HX. Not a Hybrid, but has a VTEC lean burn engine that gets close to 50 MPG.

JohnPaul (Moderator)
12:58PM electraglide, I haven't seen a HX in a while but it was a bare bones basic car that require a little finess to get the big MPG

JohnPaul (Moderator)
01:00PM Well my hour is just about up. I will be back twice next month to chat about October Car Care Month October 14th and 28th. If you have additional questions email me at jpaul@aaasne.com and little to the Car Doctor Radio program on WJDAam1300 and WESXam1230 saturday morning from 9-11