When will real estate prices begin rising again?
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Buying and selling
When will real estate prices begin rising again?
Well, since it seems like the old, "Where are Real Estate Prices headed" thread is broken, here's a replacement thread with a slightly updated title for people to share opinions, data and theories on
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Forums  »  Real estate  »  Buying and selling  »  When will real estate prices begin rising again?

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/8/2008 9:48 AM EDT
Posts: 454
First: 11/17/2006
Last: 10/27/2009

Well, since it seems like the old, "Where are Real Estate Prices headed" thread is broken, here's a replacement thread with a slightly updated title for people to share opinions, data and theories on the forces driving real estate, to predict when the Boston and greater MA real estate prices will start rising again. Good luck all! Finance Mike

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/8/2008 6:57 PM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009

Thanks for the new thread. When will the bottom arrive... 2009, 2010, 2011 ??

I'm not sure.

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 6:04 AM EDT
Posts: 11
First: 6/26/2008
Last: 11/25/2009
Thanks for starting the thread up again FM. Maybe this time the trolls will realize nobody cares what they have to say.

As far as when prices will start rising is concerned, I do not believe this will happen for another 7 -8 years. Prices will continue to decline for another 2- 3 years followed by 4-5 years of price stagnation because prices will need to align with other economic fundamentals.

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 6:33 AM EDT
Posts: 168
First: 6/27/2008
Last: 3/25/2009

What is happening right now is totally unprecedented. We have never had the global economy we have today and we certainly have never had the wealth destruction that is now taking place. These two factors along do not bode well for housing prices for many years to come.



I suspect with the pending home sales report out yesterday that we may see sales boost in numbers a nit in some areas. This will occur mostly in the massive bubble states such as CA, FL, AZ and NV. The large majority in that uptick is REO and short sales which do nothing to decrease inventory and typically move the market further downward as witnessed in past recessions. This is a direct result of the massive dumping that is now happening, and will continue to happen by lenders throughout the country. We have had over 3 Million foreclosures in the past 18 months and according to most estimates we will have roughly another 1 Million before the end of the year. This number is based on the recent numbers and trends taking place today. California alone has plummeted in price by 41% as of last month. California sales had a small uptick last month and so did there inventory. Inventory is one of the big problems right now and the problem is not going away anytime soon.



We have millions upon millions of empty homes in this country (17-20 million by most estimates) of which roughly 2.5 Million are for sale in some manner at this moment in time. The problem is all of the numbers are being skewed that we use to figure out where we are at. This makes the numbers appear to not make sense, but they do when you dig deeper into it. How can inventory be rising in CA when sales had an uptick and new build has crashed? The answer is what we refer to as shadow inventory and there is a lot of it. This inventory is held by lenders as foreclosures and they are working behind the scenes on bulk transactions to rid themselves of this over supply. The sales when they take place show up in the numbers, but this shadow inventory does not. The existing home sales market right now is… well pretty much non existent. REO and Short sales now make up close to 50% of the transactions nationally and that number will go higher. Through comps in these and all neighborhoods surrounding these sales we see massive dilution of household wealth being stripped literally overnight. This will also continue as lenders rid themselves of more and more of this shadow inventory.



Another issue on price is basic fundamentals and we are still pretty far off in many areas. Price to income is still way out of line in many areas around the country and pretty much nationally rents to mortgages are out of line as well. All RE is indeed local, but all localities are currently under stress. Prices will continue to fall until these fundamentals are put back into place. With the massive job losses we are encountering along with the massive inflation we have been experiencing (especially food and energy, which by the way does not appear in the actual Fed inflation figures) these figures themselves keep declining. That simply means home prices much fall even further in those areas most impacted by this. The other issue is typically corrections swing high meaning that we will probably over correct. That is why you see a small bump up after a recession nears its end. We are far from that point however. What we are seeing now is what is referred to as a suckers rally or premature bounce which will only lead to a further fall to the appropriate level the market deems necessary. Don’t buy into this hype as it is not real and based on any sound data. In fact it flies in the face of the data that we have been seeing come out.



The credit crunch and subsequent insolvency issues that now face so many companies is real and market stifling to say the least. It does not matter what the Fed and / or Treasury does right now, as it cannot stimulate a debt burdened society. No matter how much liquidity it tries to move into the system it just will not work. The issue is not about money, but rather it is all about debt. A large segment of the population (roughly 30 million by some estimates) is now, or will soon be, under water on their homes. That is wealth turned into debt instantly. You can’t borrow from your home (MEW) or even use it as collateral if it is not worth what you owe on it. Homes have now become no different than a car in terms of an investment. They are now a depreciating asset and should be viewed as such. When you trade your car in if you owe more than it is worth then you must pay the difference or tack it onto the new loan if you qualify to do so. The same thing is going on with housing right now, which is why lenders are finding it so tough to re-write mortgages for folks. They simply do not qualify for the new loan at the higher cost and in many cases they don’t even currently qualify for the original loan. These folks just simply cannot be saved by anyone and to try will only put off the inevitable. That is why we see so many defaults already on re-written loans from even earlier this year.



Resets are another huge issue yet to really take place like it is about too. Sure we had subprime loans defaulting in record numbers, but they are not nearly as large of loans and so the hit to lenders and the economy is not nearly as large as what is about to hit. Alt-A, Pay Option and Prime and Jumbo Prime loans are starting to see resets take place. Many of these loans were written with LTV reset ratios of 115% - 125% and those levels are being reached now on many of these loans. The peak of resets actually doesn’t take place until 2010 and ends around 2012. It won’t take that long however for many of these to reach their LTV kick in reset schedules. Many of these loans rush upwards by hundreds and even thousands of dollars per month. Many times it is clearly enough to make even the big boys rethink their up coming purchasing decisions. Until we get through the bulk of these resets nothing will really move in any large way.



With virtually no real buyers and first time buyers looking at the much cheaper shadow inventory there is little to no movement in new and existing home sales. Why pay 400K for a ranch when you can get a colonial for 250K in foreclosure? Many people have just taken their homes off of the market as a result and are either waiting to default themselves or simply walking away. This is just adding more shadow inventory. Also the tightening of what lending does exist is keeping the buyer pool very small. In many instances lenders now require 10% - 20% down and a credit score of 700 plus. Also no more stated income as you must now prove you have the resources to [ay back the loan. Many would be buyers simply cannot meet these requirements. Things will only get tighter in terms of lending requirements.



All in all I would anticipate a suckers rally to hit at some point soon and then a continued downward spiral for many more years. I think resets will probably move upward from the 2012 ending to most resetting by Q1 2011. Then I would anticipate a flat period of roughly 2-3 years followed by a gradual 1% - 3% rise in value, or traditional inflation adjusted home prices, over the next 20-30 years or more. I am looking at 2015-2017 for things to be back to normal and that doesn’t mean 2004. In other words a house is back to being just a home again. A place to live, eat, watch TV, garden, maintain and live in. Not an investment as it was never designed to be and not a way to get rich quick either. Those that did were part of a giant scheme that will not be repeating for many, many years from now if ever again…

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 6:41 AM EDT
Posts: 454
First: 11/17/2006
Last: 10/27/2009
Grim portents.

http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12382607/1/c_2984367?f=alerts

One Economist writer's view of the current state of the global economy and likelihood of a recession, which would not be good for housing prices.

And note that falling asset prices are not a US-only phenomenon:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/british-sept-house-prices-fall/story.aspx?guid=%7BE6FC48DB%2D8A0E%2D43AC%2D84E3%2DED3757C13A7A%7D

Good luck all!

Finance Mike

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 7:00 AM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009
Want a laugh in these difficult times...

Remember when the talking heads said that things would improve in late 2007 ?

That makes me laugh !!

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 7:07 AM EDT
Posts: 168
First: 6/27/2008
Last: 3/25/2009
Hey Joe, didn't Paulson himself just a short few months ago say that are financial markets were sound and the global economy was the best he had ever seen? He then calls for armegeddon a few short months later... go figure.

They are a silly bunch up their on the hill and soon many of them, as they should be, will be tossed out of office. We can hope anyway...

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 8:45 AM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009
Hey TUG that was a funny one. But, please don't ruin this board. Some people actually want to discuss the MA housing market.

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 8:48 AM EDT
Posts: 168
First: 6/27/2008
Last: 3/25/2009
Three Best Periods to Enter the U.S. Stock Market Since 1926

Date Subsequent 5 Year Return Coincident Event

May 1932 367% Great Depression

July 1982 267% Worst Recession in 25 Years

Dec 1994 251% Fed Tightening worst in 20 Years

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 12:31 PM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009
Sadly, the downturn will continue in both the housing and stock market.

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/9/2008 10:06 PM EDT
Posts: 71
First: 1/15/2007
Last: 9/16/2009
Thanks for restarting the forum FinanceMike. I keep hearing pundits say that the economic turmoil won't find an end until housing prices stabilize nationally. Yes, this is a Mass. board, but with the upheaval right now, nothing is local anymore. So, do you think govt. stepping in to refinance underwater mortgages on a large scale will stop price declines? Or will it destabilise credit markets and all those default swaps even more, which in turn leads to no loans for buyers, more economic freefalling, and more price declines? Or something else entirely?

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 6:13 AM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009
Honestly... who are you? STOP RUINING THE BOARD

Hello moderators ?????

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 6:39 AM EDT
Posts: 99
First: 5/30/2008
Last: 6/12/2009
We should leave this group. Sometime ago I created a Yahoo Group. While it may be slower, we can have more control over the trolls, ie they would be deleted. Your choice folks:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/MassRE/

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 6:43 AM EDT
Posts: 9
First: 10/10/2008
Last: 1/29/2009
[Quote]My, my usual suspects, you certainly are quite this morning. Perhaps the evaporation of the value of your portfolio is not as fertile a source of pithy comments as was the decline in local real estate prices.

Interesting how different your perspective is when you have a bit of skin in the game.

Best of luck to all...as luck is all that you will have left at the end of this bloodbath.

TUG
[/Quote]


Hey JG, Is it just me or do you smell fear and inflation ?

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 7:13 AM EDT
Posts: 1
First: 10/10/2008
Last: 10/10/2008
TUG and drinks you have nothing to be smug about. All this time you have been ridiculing the contributors to this board, hah hah hah jolly old chap/dude hah hah hah. We can now clearly see that the pessimistic contributors to this board have been incredibly prophetic and unfortunately overly optimistic.

Do you really still feel so smug and superior? Isn't it time to turn over a new leaf and constructively contribute your wit and intelligence to this board instead of being such consistent a--holes?

BTW I'm happily living in a wonderful rental house in a near suburb and my landlord loses $1,000/month.

It is a great time to sell.

Rush

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 10:04 AM EDT
Posts: 454
First: 11/17/2006
Last: 10/27/2009
Beedee, in my opinion if the government steps in wholesale and interferes in the contracts signed by people in a wholesale fashion, it basically destroys the rule of law that is so important for transactors to enter into transactions with confidence.

Costs for people trying to get new loans will skyrocket as banks have to proce in the risk that the government will re-write mortgages after the fact. Prudent, sensible, fiscally responsible people will pay the cost to bail out people who overextended themselves. There HAS to be a better way. Tax credits, something.

There is also a moral hazard aspect to this - if people are protected from the consequences of their behavior, they will enter into increasingly risky and foolish transactions. That's basically what got us into this mess in the first place.

Good luck all!

Mike

Thank you mods, great work!!

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 10:46 AM EDT
Posts: 2
First: 10/10/2008
Last: 10/10/2008
"BTW I'm happily living in a wonderful rental house in a near suburb and my landlord loses $1,000/month."

Ah sweet, sweet schadenfreude...the usual suspects care not for profit or creature comfort, nay they only revel in the misfortune of others.

Oh and lest I forget, it is indeed comical how touchy the finance smurfs have become of late. While the smurfs can critique any and eveyone, a negative mention of the smurfs causes immediate whining to the "mods".


One would think that the smurfs would embrace the concept of creative criticism as the message board equivalent of a moral hazard for posting poorly reasoned commentary. One can only assume that the smurfs only espouse the concept of moral hazard only when it brings misfortune to others.

Good luck to all and remember a finance smurf is someone who manages your money until it is all gone.

OSG

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 10:53 AM EDT
Posts: 2
First: 10/10/2008
Last: 10/10/2008


News flash !

Finance Smurfs get extended holiday!




G7 ministers close world financial markets!


Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said political leaders are discussing the idea of closing the world's financial markets while they ``rewrite the rules of international finance.''

``The idea of suspending the markets for the time it takes to rewrite the rules is being discussed,'' Berlusconi said today after a Cabinet meeting in Naples, Italy. A solution to the financial crisis ``can't just be for one country, or even just for Europe, but global.''

Good party time to all and to all a good weekend!

OSG

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/10/2008 11:42 AM EDT
Posts: 265
First: 2/1/2007
Last: 6/14/2009
Moderators... please pull the plug on this guy. He is a nuisance and a disruption and offers nothing constructive!

When will real estate prices begin rising again?

posted at 10/12/2008 9:26 AM EDT
Posts: 224
First: 6/1/2008
Last: 7/29/2009
Hopefully, RE prices won't rise again for a long time. If they fall far enough, first-time homebuyers might be able to buy something. Right now, many of us are watching from the sidelines, down-payment in hand, waiting for something affordable that isn't a dump or in the ghetto.

Why are people panicking now that housing prices are falling? The sky-high housing prices of the last few years weren't sustainable. Prices doubled in 5 years, but incomes stayed the same.
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