50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    Mentioned by JKJ it in the SoTD thread today (and you may have read about this in passing) -- Bob Dylan's first album release just turned 50.  

    We've discussed Dylan (last year he celebrated his 70th birthday -- so that means his years in the music industry have lasted his entire lifetime) -- so consider this a small tribute to Dylan.   

    Apparently the album had very few original songs on it.

    "The only question is whether or not Bob Dylan had more original songs in his repertoire, but chose to play it safe a half century ago by mostly interpreting the music of others.  The only answer was -- not for long."

    Here you go:
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    For someone who is arguably the single most important songwriter in rock history...Dylan started slow.


    But that's how we learn, isn't it...

    ...by imitating others and then giving it our own personal inflection.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    "Overnight" sensations usually disappear as fast as they appear.

    As a young child in the early sixties I was unaware of a young man named Dylan until popular Folk Rock groups like the Mamas and the Papas, the Byrds and others started having hits with Dylan covers.

    If you were alive in those days and listened to the radio, you will remember that the Beatles, Supremes, Four Seasons, Rolling Stones were the dominant forces on playlists. Bob Dylan was kind of an underground artist back in those earlier years. It was because of Woodstock that many Folk artists started to become popular on radio , Arlo Guthrie, Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, early Neil Young, James Taylor, Tom Rush, Country Joe McDonald and so many others got recognition due to Bob Dylan. Dylan's fame was not instant. He worked long and hard to earn his place in Rock history. He could have stayed a folk legend, but what would that have got him?  A nice little sidebar next to Donovan in the music encyclopedias.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    Agree on overnight sensations.  The process of "growing" in the music industry (and elsewhere, for that matter) has been greatly distorted by the instant success of so many pop singers.  Not that it's fair to immediately dismiss an instant success story, but there's a direct correspondence to the increased cynicism hearing about them, due to their prevalence.  (and yes, many of them turn out to be not more than a flash in the pan -- hey, look at all the athletes that turn out this way?)

    Knowing Dylan's road to the top was paved with hard work is to his credit, of course.  
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    I can't be the only one that doesn't understand what the hell is coming out of Dylans "singing" (?)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_RIGzk3iTQ
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from polar123. Show polar123's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    Even the greats have to start somewhere. You could somewhat see the genius that was Dylan in those early songs and interpretations. I was watching a bio of Led Zep the other night on TV, and they were discussing their debut album, which was made up of primarily blues songs some written by other artists. It was the interpretation of those songs by the band that had critics and fans alike screaming for more. Many had never heard those songs played like that before. You could immediately tell Zeppelin's genius, but no one was prepared for what came next!  The same can be said of Dylan. you could see he was new face on the scene, but did anyone expect that he would end up pioneering an entire generation?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    First album, last album and whatever came in between. Dylan is a lyricist to the nth degree.
     
  8. This post has been removed.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]John Hammond was a god. But “an uncommonly skillful guitar player and harmonica player." Uhm...
    Posted by GreginMeffa[/QUOTE]

    Well, it was more flattering to include that quote for the 50th anniversary of the album, than to have inserted a more recent Joni Mitchell quote.   :)
     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : Thats an interesting catch Yoga.  I see a great deal of similarity in Dylan and Joni's guitar playing, albeit Joni like jazz chords more. Damn you got my wheels turning (a good thing, BTW).  Flippin' thru CDs
    Posted by GreginMeffa[/QUOTE]

    Well, Greg, maybe you forgot (or weren't aware) that Joni's less than flattering remarks about Dylan a couple of years ago were based on her resentment that she's been compared to Dylan.   Many have put them in the same category, if not the same sentence.  She apparently, did not agree.  

    Rightfully compared in the best possible way(s) over the years -- yet she kicked his a$$ for some reason during an interview (even insulted him for changing his name):

    " Bob is not authentic at all: He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I. As for my name, my parents wanted a boy, so they called me Robert John; when I came out a girl, they just added two letter “A's” to that. Then I married Chuck Mitchell; I wanted to keep my maiden name -- I had a bit of a following as Joni Anderson -- but he wouldn’t let me. "

    So there ya go.  Not to taint a thread to pay props to Dylan, but he must have thick enough skin after 50 years in the music bizz.  :D
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    Who cares what Joni Mitchells says or cares? I never liked her and thought she was dung.

    Tongue out
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]" Bob is not authentic at all: He’s a plagiarist, and his name and voice are fake. Everything about Bob is a deception. We are like night and day, he and I. As for my name, my parents wanted a boy, so they called me Robert John; when I came out a girl, they just added two letter “A's” to that. Then I married Chuck Mitchell; I wanted to keep my maiden name -- I had a bit of a following as Joni Anderson -- but he wouldn’t let me.  " Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]

    I know nothing really about Joni's context for this remark or any subsequent hedging on her part.  (disclosure: as an artist, I admire Joni very much and view her musical contribution as a tangent to Dylan's, not a derivative.)  But, if you'd like to hear my take on this bold statement, I'll offer it...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]Who cares what Joni Mitchells says or cares? I never liked her and thought she was dung.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    We are familiar with this sentiment.    Thank you (as always) for sharing.  :D
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : I know nothing really about Joni's context for this remark or any subsequent hedging on her part.  (disclosure: as an artist, I admire Joni very much and view her musical contribution as a tangent to Dylan's, not a derivative.)  But, if you'd like to hear my take on this bold statement, I'll offer it...
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    We're all ears.  Why not?  

    She made the statement in an interview in 2010.  I remember bringing it up in another thread a while back.   Not sure if she ever followed up in any way, but it did cause a stir.  Doubtful that it cast her in a bad light with any of her fans.  If you want to read the whole interview:
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : We're all ears.  Why not?   She made the statement in an interview in 2010.  I remember bringing it up in another thread a while back.   Not sure if she ever followed up in any way, but it did cause a stir.  Doubtful that it cast her in a bad light with any of her fans.  If you want to read the whole interview: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/apr/22/entertainment/la-et-jonimitchell-20100422
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]

    OK.

    First, I think many would categorize both Dylan and Mitchell into the "folk-rock" genre.  But that's about as far as I would take the comparison, except to say that they are both artists of a rather prickly variety.

    Next, while both initially worked from the scripts of Guthrie, Seeger, at al., Joni showed jazz inclinations early - on which the rest of her career hinged and which their respective paths diverged even more.  In other words, folk music existed and would have continued to exist without Bob Dylan (in what form is another question).

    Musically, there is no comparison.  Joni's guitar skills and approach to composition are staggering, very complex have mostly been music first, lyrics second, while the inverse is mostly true of Dylan.  There is a natural tension between 'writers' and 'players' that can nonetheless be acrimonious.  Every songwriting partnership can attest to this.

    Was there some professional jealousy in her statement?  Perhaps, although I think it's far less of a commercial rivalry than an artistic one.  Joni's views on the music industry are outspoken in their derision, and maybe these stem from her concerns of the industry taking work at face value instead of encouraging more artistic achievement and exploration.  And (perhaps) her assessment of Dylan is more a critique from one luminary to another to take more creative risks and (maybe) point more of a 'dylan-esque' finger at the powers responsible.

    Whether her remarks are justified on their own or whether she was just being glib is arguable.  They are peers, however, in their own way (only 2 years apart in age).  And while I think few artists have the knowledge, authority and stature to criticize Dylan on his own terms, Joni Mitchell is indeed one of those artists.

    Like her or not, Joni is an incredibly important artist and one of the most significant female musicians of all-time, without question.  I mean, Mingus went to her...not the other way around.  No small praise from one of the all-time immortals of the genre.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : OK. First, I think many would categorize both Dylan and Mitchell into the "folk-rock" genre.  But that's about as far as I would take the comparison, except to say that they are both artists of a rather prickly variety. Next, while both initially worked from the scripts of Guthrie, Seeger, at al., Joni showed jazz inclinations early - on which the rest of her career hinged and which their respective paths diverged even more.  In other words, folk music existed and would have continued to exist without Bob Dylan (in what form is another question). Musically, there is no comparison.  Joni's guitar skills and approach to composition are staggering, very complex have mostly been music first, lyrics second, while the inverse is mostly true of Dylan.  There is a natural tension between 'writers' and 'players' that can nonetheless be acrimonious.  Every songwriting partnership can attest to this. Was there some professional jealousy in her statement?  Perhaps, although I think it's far less of a commercial rivalry than an artistic one.  Joni's views on the music industry are outspoken in their derision, and maybe these stem from her concerns of the industry taking work at face value instead of encouraging more artistic achievement and exploration.  And (perhaps) her assessment of Dylan is more a critique from one luminary to another to take more creative risks and (maybe) point more of a 'dylan-esque' finger at the powers responsible. Whether her remarks are justified on their own or whether she was just being glib is arguable.  They are peers, however, in their own way (only 2 years apart in age).  And while I think few artists have the knowledge, authority and stature to criticize Dylan on his own terms, Joni Mitchell is indeed one of those artists. Like her or not, Joni is an incredibly important artist and one of the most significant female musicians of all-time, without question.  I mean, Mingus went to her ...not the other way around.  No small praise from one of the all-time immortals of the genre.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    While some may disagree with your POV (and I think it's doubtful) I can't and won't.   You've never made your admiration for Joni Mitchell a secret.

    I found an interview on youtube yesterday between Joni and a BBC interviewer that was pretty good.  It was 1994.   Here's the gist of what I got out of it:
    .When asked, she said that it was true that it's easier for men to make it in the music industry than it is for women.   She said she would have had an easier time of it herself ... were that the case.   But it is what it is.
    .The music industry is sexist.
    .She did not write in a feminist tone, nor was she a feminist in her music.  
    .She was not addressing women (only) in her music.   She wrote about relationships, not about women in relationships.  
    .She knew it was only a matter of time before she'd be out of favor (and she was already on the way out then) because there isn't much space for middle-aged women in music --  pop music was ruling the charts and that was fine with her -- she did NOT care.   Said she was ready to retire a long time ago ... 
    ETC.
    She said she had not changed ... but society had changed.  So if her music was a reflection of societal norms and such, yes, it changed.   She was very clear that LA was a VERY difficult place to live -- competitive, cold, uncaring, mean  - she used traffic as an example.   She said that it used to be common for people to be polite in traffic, everyone was courteous -- and then juxtaposed that against the current norm where people were bitterly rude, impatient, and nasty on the road (sounds like MA, ugh) -- she didn't change that norm --- society had changed that norm, so yes, she wrote about it and her music reflected it.  

    She told it like it is.  You are right, while she was as cool as a cucumber, she made it clear what she thought of the music industry.   And perhaps, over time, while I don't have any idea if she actually resented Dylan, she knew his road to the top was a lot easier than her road was.    I don't think there's a glib / sarcastic remark that doesn't have a ring or a grain of truth in it -- so her one remark may have been just enough to give a glimpse into her mind and heart, and as you said, she had every right to make it.  

    I was really glad I listened to the interview.  I got "Blue" when Border's went out of business a few months ago, in a markdown bin; I had never owned a copy.  Now I'm inspired to give it some special attention.   

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : While some may disagree with your POV (and I think it's doubtful) I can't and won't.   You've never made your admiration for Joni Mitchell a secret. I found an interview on youtube yesterday between Joni and a BBC interviewer that was pretty good.  It was 1994.   Here's the gist of what I got out of it: .When asked, she said that it was true that it's easier for men to make it in the music industry than it is for women.   She said she would have had an easier time of it herself ... were that the case.   But it is what it is. .The music industry is sexist. .She did not write in a feminist tone, nor was she a feminist in her music.   .She was not addressing women (only) in her music.   She wrote about relationships, not about women in relationships.   .She knew it was only a matter of time before she'd be out of favor (and she was already on the way out then) because there isn't much space for middle-aged women in music --  pop music was ruling the charts and that was fine with her -- she did NOT care.   Said she was ready to retire a long time ago ...  ETC. She said she had not changed ... but society had changed.  So if her music was a reflection of societal norms and such, yes, it changed.   She was very clear that LA was a VERY difficult place to live -- competitive, cold, uncaring, mean  - she used traffic as an example.   She said that it used to be common for people to be polite in traffic, everyone was courteous -- and then juxtaposed that against the current norm where people were bitterly rude, impatient, and nasty on the road (sounds like MA, ugh) -- she didn't change that norm --- society had changed that norm, so yes, she wrote about it and her music reflected it.   She told it like it is.  You are right, while she was as cool as a cucumber, she was made it clear what she thought of the music industry.   And perhaps, over time, while I don't have any idea if she actually resented Dylan, she knew his road to the top was a lot easier than her road was.    I don't think there's a glib / sarcastic remark that doesn't have a ring or a grain of truth in it -- so her one remark may have been just enough to give a glimpse into her mind and heart, and as you said, she had every right to make it.   I was really glad I listened to the interview.  I got "Blue" when Border's went out of business a few months ago, in a markdown bin; I had never owned a copy.  Now I'm inspired to give it some special attention.   
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]


    I tried to keep the "pseudo-feminist" arguments out of my assessment on purpose, but as you mentioned, it's a bit hard to separate from an artist who has had such a profound influence on generations of women.  (It's been said that 'everyone who heard VU started a band'...but how many countless young women picked up a guitar or wrote songs in their journals after hearing Joni...?)

    In that sense, I guess she and Dylan share another trait - their respective elevation to an iconic status which both seem to find dubious, at best, and quite beside the point, at worst.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]Mentioned by JKJ it in the SoTD thread today (and you may have read about this in passing) -- Bob Dylan's first album release just turned 50.   We've discussed Dylan (last year he celebrated his 70th birthday -- so that means his years in the music industry have lasted his entire lifetime) -- so consider this a small tribute to Dylan.    Apparently the album had very few original songs on it. "The only question is whether or not Bob Dylan had more original songs in his repertoire, but chose to play it safe a half century ago by mostly interpreting the music of others.  The only answer was -- not for long." Here you go: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/bob-dylan-self-titled-debut-album-50th-anniversary-301520
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]

    I believe it had two original tracks on it.  Which is two more than Whitney Houston penned in her entire career, though when I pointed out her lack of composition (and therefore, imho, credibility) a few weeks back I was pounced on like a antelope by a pack of grieving lions.  Perhaps my timing was a bit off....


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jkjband. Show jkjband's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    When looking at this album, you have to look with historical prospective of the times.


    Although the record industry at the time of Dylan's first release did  acknowledge  the talent which was there and did sign him to a record contract, they did not trust the newly (and somewhat un-known) acts to record their own material.  They were made to record recognizable songs (from the Play-Tone stable of songs) to help ensure that the new artist would get a hit record.  This is why Dylan, the Beatles and the Stones' first albums are mostly cover songs. 

     Dylan's debut, though not as big a seller as his later Lps, did generate enough buzz (for a folk record) that it gave the powers that be enough confidence in his abilities to allow him to record his own compositions.  The album may not have his greatest work, but it was a step to the amazingness which was about to happen. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jkjband. Show jkjband's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : I believe it had two original tracks on it.  Which is two more than Whitney Houston penned in her entire career, though when I pointed out her lack of composition (and therefore, imho, credibility) a few weeks back I was pounced on like a antelope by a pack of grieving lions.  Perhaps my timing was a bit off....
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]


    .... too soon
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : I believe it had two original tracks on it.  Which is two more than Whitney Houston penned in her entire career, though when I pointed out her lack of composition (and therefore, imho, credibility) a few weeks back I was pounced on like a antelope by a pack of grieving lions.  Perhaps my timing was a bit off....
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    Are you sure you're talking about this forum and not the Sox forum?  :D   The only reason I 'know' you is from one thread in particular that I read for a while where you held your ground with relative ease.  Anyhow ... :)

    If it was here, it probably was a case of poor timing, granted.  I took her death seriously, as did countless others.  Every singer is not a "singer / songwriter" -- the voice is the instrument that delivers the song, the music, the interpretation, the emotion.   Writing and singing are two different skill sets, and every singer is not gifted at both.  

    If song writing is part of the credibility factor for you,  and you give a low score for for lack of it, normally, I don't think anyone would disagree with your opinion.  So, yes, I agree -- your words were spoken too soon.  

    PS  What do you (or did you) think of Dylan's (singing) voice?  Just wondering.  Thanks.  
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : Are you sure you're talking about this forum and not the Sox forum?   :D   The only reason I 'know' you is from one thread in particular that I read for a while where you held your ground with relative ease.  Anyhow ... :) If it was here, it probably was a case of poor timing, granted.  I took her death seriously, as did countless others.  Every singer is not a "singer / songwriter" -- the voice is the instrument that delivers the song, the music, the interpretation, the emotion.   Writing and singing are two different skill sets, and every singer is not gifted at both.   If song writing is part of the credibility factor for you,  and you give a low score for for lack of it, normally, I don't think anyone would disagree with your opinion.  So, yes, I agree -- your words were spoken too soon.   PS  What do you (or did you) think of Dylan's (singing) voice?  Just wondering.  Thanks.  
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]

    It was on the Sox thread.  I think Dylan's singing voice, like Hendrix', was pretty poor if viewed in isolation from his music.  But I think it suited his music pretty well.

    I think a drummer or a guitar player that doesn't write songs can have massive credibility for their skill.  I don't view singers too differently i.e. I think of the voice as an instrument. 

    I think creating a new composition is of greater significance than performing someone else's.  It's not putting down a non-composer, it's elevating a creator.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from polar123. Show polar123's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : I believe it had two original tracks on it.  Which is two more than Whitney Houston penned in her entire career, though when I pointed out her lack of composition (and therefore, imho, credibility) a few weeks back I was pounced on like a antelope by a pack of grieving lions.  Perhaps my timing was a bit off....
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    This post makes no sense. So what if she didn't write her songs. Her talent was singing them.  She was not a songwriter --  Dylan was. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.

    In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: 50th Anniversary of Dylan's first album release: Was it much of a debut? Nope. : This post makes no sense. So what if she didn't write her songs. Her talent was singing them.  She was not a songwriter -- Dylan was. 
    Posted by polar123[/QUOTE]

    Are you saying that you think all talents are of equal value?
     

Share