Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    My previous thread on the Pistols and Ramones brings me to this next subject. And that is the importance of the NY Dolls. I admit to being extremely partial to the band as they were the first NY band that entered my teenage mindset. Being 16 years old and going into the village and seeing them was an outer worldly experience for me at the time. They had taken on the roles of Jagger/Richards, put heavy eyeliner and lipstick to it (glam influence) and then added the insanity of the Stooges and bop of the girl groups of the early 60's to come up with something completely different. They were the beginning of what was to become the NY club scene.

    I admit that they wrote and recorded some really bad stuff, but in between that they also found pure genius with tracks like Trash and Jet Boy. Even now, I can listen to Jet Boy, close my eyes and envision Johnny Ramone listening to that song and saying to himself, oh yeah - that is what I need to do. Anyone can listen to Jet Boy and say to themself, now here is American Punk. Steve Jones of the Pistols freely admits now that he basically ripped Johnny Thunders guitar playing off. Chrissie Hynde, Bob Geldorf, Morrissey, Mick Jones (Clash), members of the Damned, Blondie, Dead Boys and many other punk icons all claim allegience to the Dolls.

    But their influence doesn't end there - one only needs to see and listen to many of the 80's bands; Motley Crue, Faster Pussycat, Hanoi Rocks, LA Guns and Guns and Roses and see where they came from. H*ll, just about all the 80's American bands had a Johnny Thunders clone on stage. 

    And yet there is more, 70's metal icons - KISS admit to the Dolls influence on them as well.

    I remember back in the early 70's, readers of Creem Magazine voted them top new band of the year and yet in the same poll, they were voted worst band of the year. One thing is for sure, they were not going to be ignored accept by one group - the buyers. Poor record sales and also sorts of addictions would end this band long before their time. And then death would start taking the members one by one.

    There legacy would be no hit records, no superstar status and yet they were a heavy influence on 3 different genres of RnR; Punk, Glam and 80's Metal. Not to mention they probably scared the sh*t out of more parents than the whole of the 60's bands. And there was nothing wrong with that for this teenage boy from the Bronx.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    To me they are a brief footnote along the way. Influential? well, yes. Important? No.

    Would Rock music have progressed without them? I believe so.

    I think that many groups with a lower profile contributed much more, musically.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    Is it possible that the Dolls are more important to the musicians that followed them than the actually listening audience?

    And if you are an influential act, doesn't that kind of make you important?

    Kind of like Trower - he never really busted the charts wide open after he left P.H., but his legacy as an artist and guitarist is way up on the mountain. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    In Response to Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls:
    [QUOTE]Is it possible that the Dolls are more important to the musicians that followed them than the actually listening audience? And if you are an influential act, doesn't that kind of make you important? Kind of like Trower - he never really busted the charts wide open after he left P.H., but his legacy as an artist and guitarist is way up on the mountain. 
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    You pose many tough questions.

    Peter Frampton was an excellent guitar player, had an extremely successful double-live LP, yet no one names him as influencing much that came after him.

    You can truly be an influence without actually being a great talent. Someone can take what you did and build upon it , making you an influence but not a star or a talent.

    Bob Dylan was influenced by Woody Guthrie...who is the better known, the most admired, the one everyone bows to as the "mover and shaker?" Not to belittle Dylan one bit , but without Guthrie to influence him does he become Bob Dylan, folk rocker extraordinaire or does he remain Robert Zimmerman, sometime poet, fulltime housepainter?

    The New York Dolls were on the right track, but their train arrived about 3 years too soon. Arriving on the scene too early or too late is critical. Alice Cooper is an example of an artist that "hit" at just the right time. In 1967 , he would have been too soon, by 1976 he would have been too late. They may have influenced a generation , but avoided fame because the world wasn't quite ready for this.

    I think in a way the Doors were ahead of their time also, but they had great talent and a sound that never really dates itself completely. I think more people got "tuned in" to the Doors well after they were gone and Morrison was dead. I know I did, I think it was around 1977 or so that I became a huge Doors fan. The Doors had a huge influence on bands from the mid to late 80's and into the 90's ( The Cult, The Smiths, Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy and Siouxie and the Banshees), groups that created the dark, gothic type of music. The Doors scored some classic hits and made some killer LP's and also had great influence. Even if you don't like them, you cannot deny this.

    The Dolls with proper management (where are you Brian Epstein?) may have been able to become huge, but they obviously didn't have that. The same can be said for Boston , who enjoyed much more success than the Dolls, but sadly never really ascended to the pinnacle of the Rock world ( they should have , the debut album is still an awesome achievement and a great sounding record). I understand they got burned by mismanagement and it s took years for them to recover,  by then their sound was already part of a bygone era( although "Amanda" ranks as one of my favorite songs, it literally sends chills through my body every time I hear it).
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from NumbaFouwer. Show NumbaFouwer's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    Greast discussions here. Looking at some of the youtube videos, they look OK to me. The name NY Dolls has a nice ring to it.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    Zilla - everything you say is true. But my first question is still out there. How important were the NY Dolls to the progression of RnR.

    Numba - they named a topless bar after them in NYC back in the 80's on Murray St. in SoHo. And it is still around - that can't be bad Tongue out

    Check out the youtube clips for Trash and Jet Boy
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    In Response to Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls:
    [QUOTE]Zilla - everything you say is true. But my first question is still out there. How important were the NY Dolls to the progression of RnR. Numba - they named a topless bar after them in NYC back in the 80's on Murray St. in SoHo. And it is still around - that can't be bad Check out the youtube clips for Trash and Jet Boy
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    In my rambling on , I sort of got carried away...but are you sure I didn't give my opinion on that question?

    I think I did.

    There are a gazillion bands that were good , there were a gazillion bands that were "influential" , there were a gazillion bands that were popular (without being very influential or all that great).

    Rock'nRoll is an entity that grew out of a need for kids of the 50's to have their own music (obviously country/western, jazz, classical, crooners like Frank Sinatra and Perry Como weren't it). All the 50's and 60's artists "progress" rock into the myriad styles that flourished in the 70's. By the time we hit the 70's "influential" groups and "important" groups are hard  to discern. It becomes a matter of opinion and taste. For example, I like Foghat and Foreigner, are they irreplaceable bands that would have left a big void had they not existed?....not really. Did they make some memorable and immensely popular music that would have been a shame to be without?...hell yes!!! Slow Ride, Fool for the City, Cold as Ice, Feels like the First Time, Jukebox Hero.....all great songs, but I can't say these groups "influenced" anyone ( although they probably did, to some degree).

    So, yes the New York Dolls did have a place in Rock history, Yes, they had an impact on what was to become the Punk Rock movement,here and in the U.K. Would another group have done what they did a few years down the road had they not existed?...tough to say. Did Dave Edmunds help to bring back the Rockabilly sound from the 50's?...yes. Would the Stray Cats never have existed if not for Dave Edmunds?... Impossible to say.

    It's always tough to say how "important" an artist is or was, you just don't know if someone else would have taken the place of an "imporatnt" artist and become "important" themselves.

    We can get into a whole discussion about what is called "entropy", a term that crops up in science fiction. Defined as a 'measure of the uncertainty associated with a random variable"....does Rock'nRoll not exist if Elvis Presley is never born or dies as a child? ....does Punk Rock not exist without the New York Dolls, the Velvet Underground or the MC5?

    There are so many "random variables" and so much "uncertainty"for us to know whether any one artist has such a widespread effect as to topple the whole house of cards to the ground or to inspire hundreds or thousands to do something they would not have done anyway.

    If we could go back to 1959 and insure that Buddy Holly does not take that plane ride....do we change Rock'nRoll? Or was his influence already indelibly stamped on the music?...would this have changed the course of Rock'nRoll history or would it be about the same?...this is the uncertainty and the random variable that exists through out our history and the history of Rock'nRoll.

    In an nutshell...I don't think Rock'nRoll would be that much different without this group, but I could be completely wrong...I really just don't know.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    I think the title of the Dolls second album was quite apt: Too Much Too Soon.

    I have never listened to their music, but from what I've read about them they were highly influential on bands that followed them. So yes, they are important. Sometimes the influential artist is not as entertaining as the ones they influence. I like the blues, but the rough, crude  recordings of Charley Patton do not entertain me as much as the rockin' ones of Howlin' Wolf, who was very much influenced by him.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    Zilla

    Can I hire you as a lawyer next time I get in trouble?

    FYI - Where is everyone else? Haven't heard from Software or Matty in awhile.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from newman09. Show newman09's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    Jesseyeric, you mentioned the first time you saw them you were 16 yrs old in the village. Zillagod, good point on timing being everything, but I'm not sure it was everything in this case. 

    Seeing them in the village at 16 must have been something, I wish I was there. But the timing here was perfect for you, seeing them in that setting and in that early stage of influence was perfect. The group on the other hand missed the boat. They were ok with a couple of decent tracks. Influential on a grand scale, "no", to someone that caught there act at the right time, "sure".

    Music moves on and progresses as it did, with or without the New York Dolls. IMHO.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    I agree Newman in much of what you and Zilla say. Perhaps I should have added a sidebar to my original thread.

    Example - last year, Leonard Cohen was inducted into the RnR HoF. Now I know many people who were going - Leonard who? And the same can be said about one of this year's nominees - Tom Watts. (I think I own his whole catalogue on vinyl). And it is expected that Tom will be inducted. Now I do not believe either artist achieved any commercial success as we know it. In fact, if you don't have an ear for either artist's music, you probably won't like it all that much.

    Now Zilla, much like me, has very little use for the Hall. But I do look at the supposed criteria of the Hall when trying to be objective in my opinion about a band.

    The Hall's criteria is as follows:

    Innovation
    Influence
    Perpetuation of the artform

    So forgetting the fact that I am a fan of the Dolls, if I was to just judge based on that criteria alone, the NY Dolls, to me, should be considered an extremely important act. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    In case you haven't guessed there are two subjects I love to talk about.

    Rock music and science fiction.

    When I get a chance to marry up the two in one thread...watch out! I may never shut up.

    One of the things that is really great about Rock music is that there are just so many styles, so many groups, so many personalities for us all to have a great number of our "favorites" that perhaps many others know little about or care little about.

    jesseyeric is a big fan of the New York Dolls and Cheap Trick. Neither is anywhere near the top of my list. This doesn't make anyone right or wrong. jesseyeric has seen much more live music than I. This is where we find a major difference.

    Sex Pistols, New York Dolls and MC5 are referenced in many rock books as being pivotal groups in formation and influence terms. No argument. However as a person who enjoys listening to Rock CD's on the home stereo, I am reaching for ELP , Clapton, Elvis Costello, Deep Purple , Blue Oyster Cult, Foreigner, Foghat, and on and on and on...a million times more than I am reaching for my New York Dolls CD or my Sex Pistols CD's. But I do own these and would not be without them.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    In Response to Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls:
    [QUOTE]In case you haven't guessed there are two subjects I love to talk about. Rock music and science fiction. When I get a chance to marry up the two in one thread...watch out! I may never shut up. One of the things that is really great about Rock music is that there are just so many styles, so many groups, so many personalities for us all to have a great number of our "favorites" that perhaps many others know little about or care little about. jesseyeric is a big fan of the New York Dolls and Cheap Trick. Neither is anywhere near the top of my list. This doesn't make anyone right or wrong. jesseyeric has seen much more live music than I. This is where we find a major difference. Sex Pistols, New York Dolls and MC5 are referenced in many rock books as being pivotal groups in formation and influence terms. No argument. However as a person who enjoys listening to Rock CD's on the home stereo, I am reaching for ELP , Clapton, Elvis Costello, Deep Purple , Blue Oyster Cult, Foreigner, Foghat, and on and on and on...a million times more than I am reaching for my New York Dolls CD or my Sex Pistols CD's. But I do own these and would not be without them.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    I hear ya. Except I don't even have anything by The New York Dolls, Sex Pistols, or the MC5. Some groups I'm content to just read about without buying their music. I like Cheap Trick somewhat but I don't have anything by them either. Don't know why, but with certain groups I just don't get near pulling the trigger on buying their music. On the other hand, I do have some Disco and Hip-Hop collections that I thoroughly enjoy listening to. But like you said, there is no right or wrong. Right?

    As far as Sci-Fi, I look forward to you including it in a thread. I'm a Sci-Fi fan too, so I'm curious to know what you enjoy in this area.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from shumirules. Show shumirules's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    I have to say that the NY Dolls had more influence on future music.

    I would think a lot of bands that saw them or heard them thought hey I can see were this should go, but I never thought that the Dolls themselves had the talent to make it.  You can look at a guy like Izzy Stadlin ( a good topic for under-rated song writers.) of guns and roses, he was  huge Dolls fan but if you look at his writing style he was way past what they did, but there is no doubt they pushed him towards what he would become.  He even thought about joining them when they thought about a reunion.

    It would always be a tough sell to most of America to get a really big group of kids into guys dressing in drag.  Twisted Sister came as close as anyone to making this happen.  But lets face it most guys are not going to like that at 16 way to easy for your friends to rag on you.



     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from softwareDevMusician. Show softwareDevMusician's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    I've refrained from commenting because there is nothing I can add to this conversation one way or another. Punk barely grazed my little suburban town outside of hartford. I only know about NY Dolls because they cross-dressed, and David Johansen from his Buster Poindexter persona, which I wonder if he regrets doing. He seems like a pretty cool guy...resident of Staten Island, iirc. I will say, that if I had been exposed to seeing a band like that when I was sixteen, especially in NYC, things would have been, well, entirely different.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    In Response to Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls : I hear ya. Except I don't even have anything by The New York Dolls, Sex Pistols, or the MC5. Some groups I'm content to just read about without buying their music. I like Cheap Trick somewhat but I don't have anything by them either. Don't know why, but with certain groups I just don't get near pulling the trigger on buying their music. On the other hand, I do have some Disco and Hip-Hop collections that I thoroughly enjoy listening to. But like you said, there is no right or wrong. Right? As far as Sci-Fi, I look forward to you including it in a thread. I'm a Sci-Fi fan too, so I'm curious to know what you enjoy in this area.
    Posted by devildavid[/QUOTE]

    Apologies to jesseyeric for the interuption in topic, but we'll surely touch on this subject soon dd, I think we can work it into a music thread since there are a number of rock artists ( Bowie,Ozzy, Hawkwind, B.O.C.) who use SF subjects in songs.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Artist of the Day - New York Dolls

    I think Sci-Fi and its offshoot, Sci-Fantasy come into heavy discussion within the musical realms of RnR.

    Man Who Fell To Earth is a good marriage of Rock and Sci-Fi.

    There is also the marriage of RnR and Anime (Yoshimi's passion)
     

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