Founders of heavy metal

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    Founders of heavy metal

    Related to the discussions on the foundation/gods of rock, who do you view as the founders of Metal (and for the sake of making this easy, let's use 85' as a cut off point for the foudnation)

    I don't think there is a clear right or wrong answer. Depending on the metal bands you listen(ed) to, you will hear different influences.

    For me, here is where I sense th foudnations of modern metal are from:

    the Baroque-early classical era (particularly guys like Bach). The scales are very similar to what you hear in modern metal, the rythyms and the principles are largely the same. You won't find blues scales in many modern metal bands, you will find melodic minors.

    Queen: I put them at the top of the list, because the stuff they were doing in the early to mid 70s, clearly broke a lot of ground and was picked up later by metal artists. Also, their early stuff focused on the subject matter that you heard in later metal.

    Black Sabbath: I think Black Sabbath's role in shaping modern metal is undeniable. They created the foundational sound and mood.

    Led Zepplin: Though more of a blues/rock band, they embraced the kinds of topics that bands like queen picked up on, and they took rock to a much heavier end of the spectrum.

    Judas Priest/Iron Maiden: Lord's of the twin guitars. Take your pick. In life, there are Iron Maiden fans and there are Judas Priest fans. Both bands tred similar ground. Both bands were awesome. And in modern metal, and even popular bands like Lincoln Park you can hear clear traces of both.

    Metallica:(With appologies to Dave Mustaine.) I would argue they took heavy metal into its modern form. I think without metallic, you wouldn't have seen all the splinter styles in the 80s and 90s (thrash, speed, death, doom, etc).
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    Have to add Deep Purple.  In Rock is one of the seminal metal albums.  They had twin virtuosos in Blackmore on guitar and Lord on keyboards.  A lot of classical influence...Blackmore has always admitted to borrowing from Bach's structures.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]Have to add Deep Purple.  In Rock is one of the seminal metal albums.  They had twin virtuosos in Blackmore on guitar and Lord on keyboards.  A lot of classical influence...Blackmore has always admitted to borrowing from Bach's structures.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    That is a good point. A lot of doom metal bands were influenced by deep purple as well.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    With all apologies to you, Forum Cleaner...Queen doesn't rate as a Heavy Metal band. And I think they are a little late to be considered influences on Metal as they came after Black Sabbath, the first pure Heavy Metal group.

    This reminds me of how many years ago ( mid 70's) the Columbia House and RCA music club catalogs used to be very confused ( probably they didn't have many real rock fans working for them back then) about subgenres. And to be quite honest, I get a little confused too, and I have been a Rock fan for over 40 years!

    Rush was always listed as Heavy Metal which is wrong, clone groups like Triumph were also classified under Heavy Metal. Jethro Tull once won "Heavy Metal album of the year" on the Grammys. Led Zeppelin is borderline and I think it's because of versatility , so I think by process of elimination they can be called Heavy Metal. Deep Purple always considered that they were more Progressive ( the prominent organ parts of Jon Lord are not common amongst Heavy Metal bands...although I believe Ritchie's guitar and Paice's drums argue against progressive and for Metal ( We'll call them a hybrid and will include them as a "yes").Aerosmith often classified by some as Heavy Metal over the early years is not Heavy Metal.

    However. All this being said, the groups that were "foundations" or founders of Heavy Metal were likely not Heavy Metal bands but bands that were used as a "model" for Heavy Metal to sprout from.

     With that in mind, my choices would be:

    Cream
    The Jimi Hendrix Experience
    Iron Butterfly
    Grand Funk Railroad
    Mountain
    Steppenwolf




     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]With all apologies to you, Forum Cleaner...Queen doesn't rate as a Heavy Metal band. And I think they are a little late to be considered influences on Metal as they came after Black Sabbath, the first pure Heavy Metal group. This reminds me of how many years ago ( mid 70's) the Columbia House and RCA music club catalogs used to be very confused ( probably they didn't have many real rock fans working for them back then) about subgenres. And to be quite honest, I get a little confused too, and I have been a Rock fan for over 40 years! Rush was always listed as Heavy Metal which is wrong, clone groups like Triumph were also classified under Heavy Metal. Jethro Tull once won "Heavy Metal album of the year" on the Grammys. Led Zeppelin is borderline and I think it's because of versatility , so I think by process of elimination they can be called Heavy Metal. Deep Purple always considered that they were more Progressive ( the prominent organ parts of Jon Lord are not common amongst Heavy Metal bands...although I believe Ritchie's guitar and Paice's drums argue against progressive and for Metal ( We'll call them a hybrid and will include them as a "yes").Aerosmith often classified by some as Heavy Metal over the early years is not Heavy Metal. However. All this being said, the groups that were "foundations" or founders of Heavy Metal were likely not Heavy Metal bands but bands that were used as a "model" for Heavy Metal to sprout from.  With that in mind, my choices would be: Cream The Jimi Hendrix Experience Iron Butterfly Grand Funk Railroad Mountain Steppenwolf
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Have to disagree with you. Iron maiden isn't all that heavy either, yet they are regarded as an important heavy metal band.

    They were formed in 1971, so I would say that places them in the very early stages of metal's development. Were they the first? No. Zep and Sabbath were there earlier, but not by much. And whereas sabbath and zep introduced a lot of mood and heaviness that was used later, many of the twin guitar sounds we associate with metal and the use of more classically oriented scales clearly come from queen (granted the twin sound was acheived by recording multiple tracks, but same result).

    With queen, if you listen to their early stuff it is actually quite heavy. They were described by reviewers at the time as heavy metal. Queen I and Queen II are very strong examples of this.

    Would I classify them as heavy metal? No. Because they were clearly a progressive rock band that experimented with a number of different sounds (including sounds that could be called metal). However, I would say they they were foudners of the style.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE] All this being said, the groups that were "foundations" or founders of Heavy Metal were likely not Heavy Metal bands but bands that were used as a "model" for Heavy Metal to sprout from.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Exaclty. Queen isn't a proper heavy metal band. But metal bands the world over have acknowledged their influence. Includnig metalica.

    Would just add, as a band they covered a lot of ground, like Zepplin. In fact when they first came out (for their first two albums) critics said they had claimed the title the of heavy metal kings that zepplin had abdicated (or something to that effect).

    I am with you on metal being confused with rock and hard rock later on. But we are talking about the early development stage here where there was cross over. Heck, if you look at early footage of Judas Priest, they look like hippies and they haven't developed their metal sound quite yet. And Iron Maiden used to be more of a punk band. And then you had later bands, like Cathedral, that tried to fuse fund, psychedelic and metal. I think it is very hard for everyone to come agree on what constitutes metal (though most would support you in saying Tull was not metal). 
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]With all apologies to you, Forum Cleaner...Queen doesn't rate as a Heavy Metal band. And I think they are a little late to be considered influences on Metal as they came after Black Sabbath, the first pure Heavy Metal group. This reminds me of how many years ago ( mid 70's) the Columbia House and RCA music club catalogs used to be very confused ( probably they didn't have many real rock fans working for them back then) about subgenres. And to be quite honest, I get a little confused too, and I have been a Rock fan for over 40 years! Rush was always listed as Heavy Metal which is wrong, clone groups like Triumph were also classified under Heavy Metal. Jethro Tull once won "Heavy Metal album of the year" on the Grammys. Led Zeppelin is borderline and I think it's because of versatility , so I think by process of elimination they can be called Heavy Metal. Deep Purple always considered that they were more Progressive ( the prominent organ parts of Jon Lord are not common amongst Heavy Metal bands...although I believe Ritchie's guitar and Paice's drums argue against progressive and for Metal ( We'll call them a hybrid and will include them as a "yes").Aerosmith often classified by some as Heavy Metal over the early years is not Heavy Metal. However. All this being said, the groups that were "foundations" or founders of Heavy Metal were likely not Heavy Metal bands but bands that were used as a "model" for Heavy Metal to sprout from.  With that in mind, my choices would be: Cream The Jimi Hendrix Experience Iron Butterfly Grand Funk Railroad Mountain Steppenwolf
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]
    That's a good list Zilla. I'd probably add MC5 to it.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : That's a good list Zilla. I'd probably add MC5 to it.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Good one. MC5 are trail blazers for Metal and Punk, while being neither style. They are more of a hard rock/psychdelic.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : Have to disagree with you. Iron maiden isn't all that heavy either, yet they are regarded as an important heavy metal band. They were formed in 1971, so I would say that places them in the very early stages of metal's development. Were they the first? No. Zep and Sabbath were there earlier, but not by much. And whereas sabbath and zep introduced a lot of mood and heaviness that was used later, many of the twin guitar sounds we associate with metal and the use of more classically oriented scales clearly come from queen (granted the twin sound was acheived by recording multiple tracks, but same result). With queen, if you listen to their early stuff it is actually quite heavy. They were described by reviewers at the time as heavy metal. Queen I and Queen II are very strong examples of this. Would I classify them as heavy metal? No. Because they were clearly a progressive rock band that experimented with a number of different sounds (including sounds that could be called metal). However, I would say they they were foudners of the style.
    Posted by ForumCleaner[/QUOTE]

    Iron Maiden released their first LP in 1980. No doubt they formed a few years earlier , but they are irrelevant in terms of "founding" Heavy Metal, they are part of the "second wave" that included Ozzy solo, Def Leppard, Whitesnake, and mainstays the Scorpions and Judas Priest ( who were around since the early 70's , just not very well known or visible as far as airplay and album sales in the U.S.A.)

    I think if you want to talk about "founders" of the sound you need to look at the era before Black Sabbath's first LP, as that would be the true birth of what we call Heavy Metal.

    Personally , I don't identify the twin guitar sound with Heavy Metal at all. Many of the best Metal Bands used only one guitarist. Deep Purple, Rainbow, Black Sabbath, Yngwie Malmsteen, Van Halen, Impelletieri, Joe Satriani, Led Zeppelin all used only one guitar player.

    I think it was Thin Lizzy that was credited with being the first to use the twin lead guitar sound that would be copied by Iron Maiden, the Scorpions and Judas Priest. Although , it is debatable whether they fall into the category of Heavy Metal. I would classify them as an early influence also on many groups that would follow.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    Excellent thread idea, ForumCleaner.

    This one leaves room for alot of healthy debate, no doubt.

    I get so little chance to talk about Heavy Metal as very few people I know are into it like I am.

    Thanks.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : Good one. MC5 are trail blazers for Metal and Punk, while being neither style. They are more of a hard rock/psychdelic.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]
    I like that Eric Clapton is on your list. What about Jeff Beck? The Yardbirds, do you think that had any influence on metal?
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : I like that Eric Clapton is on your list. What about Jeff Beck? The Yardbirds, do you think that had any influence on metal?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    I would say definitely, in the electrified blues category of metal. The Yardbirds led to the original Jeff Beck group and the Truth album, which is considered to have been the template for Zep's first album. 
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    One of my favorite subjects and highly debateable.

    As I see it, there were three different stages to the birth of Metal.

    First Stage - I think you have to look at a 50's artist by the name of Link Wray. Distortion and power chords, specifically power chords were used by Link in his instrumental tunes. Extremely influential to the guitarists that followed.

    Second Stage - this took place in the 60's. The Kinks and there continued used and progression of the power chord and sustained notes. The Who in both the physical nature of the band and the way they played their music. Feedback, distortion and in the songs themselves - teen angst, which is a staple of metal music. And once again we see the continuation of the power chord. The Yardbirds, especially with the replacement of Clapton with Beck. Jeff Beck is the role model for all heavy metal guitarists that would follow. Cream took blues to a completely new level - so hard and dirty. Hendrix - those were not all sweet little notes he magically played. Led Zep - they took what Cream was doing, turned the volume up to 11 and went nuts those first two albums. Deep Purple and Blackmore were also one of the first bands to really move slightly to the left of Rockin Blues and get heavy. And for the record, The Beatles Helter Skelter which was noise all the way had a major impact and what was to follow. Here in America, you had The Stooges, Alice Cooper Band and the MC 5 getting louder and nastier. Grand Funk, KISS and a few others were second tier after them.

    Third Stage - And then there was Black Sabbath. Let's realize that there sound is a freak of nature because of the injury Tony had sustained on his fingertips. He had to tune the guitar differently to play which gave it a heavier sound. And they looked at the summer of love junk and decided to scare people.

    Many bands followed and drove the music into the 70's and 80's.

    Forum Cleaner makes a very good point with Queen. We may not look at them as a Metal band, but right up to Bohemian Rhapsody, that is what they were considered. Queen 1 and 2 were ridiculously sonic and fast but we tend to overlook them because of those vocal gymnastics. And on Sheer Heart Attack, they may very well have recorded one of the most influential metal songs of all time: Stone Cold Crazy.
     
    And then there was one more band who must be part of the list. Although they considered themselves a punk band, Motorhead were and still are Gods to all Metal bands that formed afterwards.

    So many bands then took up the lead, Rainbow which is Balckmore's masterpiece of Metal music. Priest, Maiden, Saxon and the rest of the NWoBHM. And here in America, Metallica, Megadeth and a few others moved it along as well. And don't forget The Crue.  Get past their look those first couple of albums and they were loud, rude and obnoxious 3 chord lunatics. Maybe not that good, but Metal none the less.

    Now there are so many genre's, I cannot even keep up. Hard Rock/Heavy Metal will always be my favorite because you could add so many other spices to it and keep it would stay Metal.

    FYI - There is a cult of fans of a band called Coven who proclaim them to be at the forefront. I don't hear it in the music, but visually, they were off the charts back in the last 60's.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : I would say definitely, in the electrified blues category of metal. The Yardbirds led to the original Jeff Beck group and the Truth album, which is considered to have been the template for Zep's first album. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Jeff Beck is the most underrated god in the metal pantheon isn't he? He was also a huge influence in jazz. Larry Carlton shows a strong Jeff Beck influence imo.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]Led Zep - they took what Cream was doing, turned the volume up to 11 and went nuts those first two albums
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE] And don't forget that Jimmy Page also played with the Yardbirds. If you want to talk about the most influential band in the history of rock, the yardbirds have to be in the conversation. BTW, what instrument do you play jessey?
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : And don't forget that Jimmy Page also played with the Yardbirds. If you want to talk about the most influential band in the history of rock, the yardbirds have to be in the conversation. BTW, what instrument do you play jessey?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    There is no doubt about the importance of the Yardbirds. And with Page, one must remember that Zep first toured as The New Yardbirds to fulfill certain contractual obligations.

    As for me, guitar was the instrument, however, growing up in an Italian home, I had to first take three years of accordian lessons before my parents would allow an electric guitar in the house. But it was because of the accordian that I learned how to read music.


     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : Jeff Beck is the most underrated god in the metal pantheon isn't he? He was also a huge influence in jazz. Larry Carlton shows a strong Jeff Beck influence imo.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Just saw Beck's DVD 'Live at Ronnie Scott's' for the first time recently.  It is great stuff.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : There is no doubt about the importance of the Yardbirds. And with Page, one must remember that Zep first toured as The New Yardbirds to fulfill certain contractual obligations. As for me, guitar was the instrument, however, growing up in an Italian home, I had to first take three years of accordian lessons before my parents would allow an electric guitar in the house. But it was because of the accordian that I learned how to read music.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]
    I learned how to read music on the slide trombone. F Clef if you can imagine that LOL. Before I could even read though, my dad started to teach me country music on the guitar. I consider myself a mandolin player these days, although I can still play a pretty mean rock 'n roll guitar.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    Mandolin _ I wish I could play that and make the sweet sounds that it can produce.

    One of my all-time favorite songs is off the "Every Picture Tells a Story" album by Rod Stewart.

    Mandolin Wind.

    That song has to be one of the most beautiful songs ever. If you can play that, you are my hero Carnie.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]Mandolin _ I wish I could play that and make the sweet sounds that it can produce. One of my all-time favorite songs is off the "Every Picture Tells a Story" album by Rod Stewart. Mandolin Wind. That song has to be one of the most beautiful songs ever. If you can play that, you are my hero Carnie.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]Wasn't that Jimmy Page on the Mando?
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : Wasn't that Jimmy Page on the Mando?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    i believe the musician was Ray Jackson.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : i believe the musician was Ray Jackson.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]I always thought that was Jimmy Page. Now you've got my whole history of music theory all bollixed up. Ray Jackson, really? I just looked it up and you're right. I always thought Jimmy Page played mandolin on that album. Can't imagine where I got that idea. Maybe on an acid trip.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : I always thought that was Jimmy Page. Now you've got my whole history of music theory all bollixed up. Ray Jackson, really? I just looked it up and you're right. I always thought Jimmy Page played mandolin on that album. Can't imagine where I got that idea. Maybe on an acid trip.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Had a few ideas that way myself in the day my friend.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : Iron Maiden released their first LP in 1980. No doubt they formed a few years earlier , but they are irrelevant in terms of "founding" Heavy Metal, they are part of the "second wave" that included Ozzy solo, Def Leppard, Whitesnake, and mainstays the Scorpions and Judas Priest ( who were around since the early 70's , just not very well known or visible as far as airplay and album sales in the U.S.A.) I think if you want to talk about "founders" of the sound you need to look at the era before Black Sabbath's first LP, as that would be the true birth of what we call Heavy Metal. Personally , I don't identify the twin guitar sound with Heavy Metal at all. Many of the best Metal Bands used only one guitarist. Deep Purple, Rainbow, Black Sabbath, Yngwie Malmsteen, Van Halen, Impelletieri, Joe Satriani, Led Zeppelin all used only one guitar player. I think it was Thin Lizzy that was credited with being the first to use the twin lead guitar sound that would be copied by Iron Maiden, the Scorpions and Judas Priest. Although , it is debatable whether they fall into the category of Heavy Metal. I would classify them as an early influence also on many groups that would follow.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    You make a lot of good points. However I really think twin guitar is a thing that most people associate with metal. You may not need to do it to achieve a metal sound, but many major bands from the 80s on that I can think of were doing some kind of twin guitar sound.   Iron Maiden definitely didn't invent it. But in my mind they perfected the technique.

    I guess I am thinking of the foundational era being from 70 to 1985, which is why I would include them. Metal was pretty well develpoed by that date. But up to it, there were still a lot of rock elements in it.
     
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    Re: Founders of heavy metal

    In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Founders of heavy metal : You make a lot of good points. However I really think twin guitar is a thing that most people associate with metal. You may not need to do it to achieve a metal sound, but many major bands from the 80s on that I can think of were doing some kind of twin guitar sound.   Iron Maiden definitely didn't invent it. But in my mind they perfected the technique. I guess I am thinking of the foundational era being from 70 to 1985, which is why I would include them. Metal was pretty well develpoed by that date. But up to it, there were still a lot of rock elements in it.
    Posted by ForumCleaner[/QUOTE]
    Really, I think the twin guitar sound is an idea that owes to Bill Monroe, who pioneered the twin fiddle in bluegrass. Listen to Tall Timber and tell me that nobody in Lynyrd Skynyrd ever listened to that song.
     

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