How does this happen?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    How does this happen?

    I was debating whether to post this on political forums (it has relevance to both music and politics) , but I get tired of being called ignorant or a moron, so I think it might be safer here. You folks are more mature...as a rule. And I appreciate that.

    The subject is Ted Nugent. 

    The question is how does a prominent figure in Rock music ( usually associated with the "counter culture" or the "left" ) go from being a favorite with young adolescents ( mostly boys ) and a "villian" to the establishment and church goers, teachers, parents, etc. , how does a figure like this become a "darling" of the "Right Wing?" ..."Extreme Right Wing" , in this case. 

    As a teenager I bought my first Ted Nugent album ( around 1977 , or so) and was 100% thrilled with the whole LP.....my father wasn't interested...needless to say. 

    Nugent was "making his living" by selling adolescent boys what they wanted.....heavy, hard Rock 'n'Roll with loud noise and sexual refrences and violence.

    Now he is "selling" what his newest audience wants to hear...Right Wing propaganda not unlike the Nazis used, to help elect Right Wing Republicans ( because they aren't going to take his guns away!!!).

    In his latest jab at Obama he mentions "subhuman mongrel" which was used by Hitler when he referred to the "untermensch" ...the people his cronies were slaughtering and butchering. 

    All these bible toting Right Wing people are loving Ted now. I'll bet they weren't fans when he was singing about 'wang dang sweet p**nt**g.'

    Is this the same guy?....did he fool us or is he fooling them? Or what?

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Good question.

    In Ted's case, I've pretty much separated his music from the media caricature he has become.  (I like a few songs, but I was never too crazy about his work, either...which it should be said wasn't overtly political anyway.  Haven't heard any new music from him.)

    And yet I think that - in some ways - he is still just a projection of a kind of extreme macho, carnivorous, caveman archetype who's trying to stay relevant to his older fans.  The title "motor city madman" isn't very subtle.

    When I see or hear hot air like that, I just chuckle, because it's just so ridiculous and over-the-top.  That anyone else takes him at all seriously isn't surprising, either, because this is america, and unfunny clowns are everywhere.

    Otherwise, he's like a south park character come to life.

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    I think Nugent has reached a brand new low this time. This even makes me consider never listening to any of his music again. I always figured he could be conservative because of his love for hunting, but this guy is a caricature who even gives real rednecks a bad name. I really hate when any celebrities pontificate on politics, but Nugent takes it to it's lowest level. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Nugent has reached a brand new low this time. This even makes me consider never listening to any of his music again. I always figured he could be conservative because of his love for hunting, but this guy is a caricature who even gives real rednecks a bad name. I really hate when any celebrities pontificate on politics, but Nugent takes it to it's lowest level. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Granted, the statement is idiotic even for him.

    But isn't that kind of drastic action on your part?  Why should he get the satisfaction of knowing/believing that his strident views have turned away someone who is by all accounts a devoted music fan?

    Now, I'm not saying I'll buy his albums or concert tickets either, but I didn't do that much before he became such a tool of the right-wing.

    Dope that he is, "Stranglehold" is still a killer classic rock riff.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Never cared much for his music.  Certainly don't think much of his politics.

    Frankly I think he's an idiot.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    How does a minister voluntarily jam with Nugent on TV as he plays Cat Scratch Fever?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Ted Nugent, keynote speaker at the RNC in 2016.  Mark my words.   He'll make Clint Eastwood look like a poet laureate.   (funny, now that Clint saved someone's life recently, he's a hero once again). 

    Talk about re-inventing yourself.   The right has latched onto Nugent; he was "invited to speak" ... he didn't crash anyone's party.    This is the world we live in.  Welcome.  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from polar123. Show polar123's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

      Now he is "selling" what his newest audience wants to hear...Right Wing propaganda not unlike the Nazis used, to help elect Right Wing Republicans ( because they aren't going to take his guns away!!!).

    In his latest jab at Obama he mentions "subhuman mongrel" which was used by Hitler when he referred to the "untermensch" ...the people his cronies were slaughtering and butchering.

    All these bible toting Right Wing people are loving Ted now. I'll bet they weren't fans when he was singing about 'wang dang sweet p**nt**g.'

     

    Not surprising. These are the same folks who used an Obama look-alike to play Satan in their "Bible-Mini-series."  As far as Nugent, I like some of his stuff, but I find it ironic that rumors still swirl on wether or not he was a draft dodger during the Vietnam war, especially given his new found audience. He claims he did a lot of drugs to get out of serving, but in the end, really got a student derferment. Not everyone is buying it. Listen to what Twisted Sister's Dee Snider said about Nugent: 

    " Ted's always been a gun-toting conservative. But what gets me is that he was actually a draft dodger! I mean, to the point where he didn't bathe for a week, and vomited on himself to deliberately avoid the draft. I totally understand why he did that, but all of these Republicans who love Ted don't seem to know or remember that too well. It's crazy that he's become one of the voices of Conservative America even though he was a draft dodger."  
     

     

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Nugent has reached a brand new low this time. This even makes me consider never listening to any of his music again. I always figured he could be conservative because of his love for hunting, but this guy is a caricature who even gives real rednecks a bad name. I really hate when any celebrities pontificate on politics, but Nugent takes it to it's lowest level. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Granted, the statement is idiotic even for him.

    But isn't that kind of drastic action on your part?  Why should he get the satisfaction of knowing/believing that his strident views have turned away someone who is by all accounts a devoted music fan?

    Now, I'm not saying I'll buy his albums or concert tickets either, but I didn't do that much before he became such a tool of the right-wing.

    Dope that he is, "Stranglehold" is still a killer classic rock riff.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I was surprised by my own reaction to this. Ordinarily, I think I can separate the art from the artist. For some reason, his use of "subhuman mongrel" struck a nerve. I immediately thought of Hitler and his hateful philosophy an I had a visceral reaction to it. Usually I found Nugent a primitive clown, but he went from clown to goon with that comment. I have nothing against people espousing extreme political views, but for me, for the fist time ever, this really crossed the line.

    Now where is Sonics to see what's happened to me?

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    His opinions and views are meant to keep him "relevent" because nobody born in 2000+ knows who the heck he is! 

    I actually do agree with "some" of what he has to say as it relates to hunting - I don't begrudge him his opinion - like a "nose - everybody's got one!

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    The one thing I'll say for Nugent is that he came up with one of the best titles ever for a live album - 'Intensities in 10 Cities'.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Nugent has reached a brand new low this time. This even makes me consider never listening to any of his music again. I always figured he could be conservative because of his love for hunting, but this guy is a caricature who even gives real rednecks a bad name. I really hate when any celebrities pontificate on politics, but Nugent takes it to it's lowest level. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Granted, the statement is idiotic even for him.

    But isn't that kind of drastic action on your part?  Why should he get the satisfaction of knowing/believing that his strident views have turned away someone who is by all accounts a devoted music fan?

    Now, I'm not saying I'll buy his albums or concert tickets either, but I didn't do that much before he became such a tool of the right-wing.

    Dope that he is, "Stranglehold" is still a killer classic rock riff.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I was surprised by my own reaction to this. Ordinarily, I think I can separate the art from the artist. For some reason, his use of "subhuman mongrel" struck a nerve. I immediately thought of Hitler and his hateful philosophy an I had a visceral reaction to it. Usually I found Nugent a primitive clown, but he went from clown to goon with that comment. I have nothing against people espousing extreme political views, but for me, for the fist time ever, this really crossed the line.

    Now where is Sonics to see what's happened to me?

    [/QUOTE]

    I can respect that.  Some music (and art) brings certain connotations that can be hard to escape, especially when taken in the context of the artist outside the art itself.

    I recall when Sinead O'Connor tore up the photo of the pope on SNL, and people went ballistic.  Now whether or not one likes her music, the provocation was part of a performance and thus tied to her art.  She sought a reaction, and boy, she got it.

    And again, I think it might be different if Nugent's music was blatantly political.  Instead, his buffoonish comments and behavior are products of his celebrity and not his work's artistic merit (such as it is).

    As an amateur scholar  and lover of art, it's difficult for me to blame the art for the sake of the puerile, sophmoric acts or words of the artist., except maybe in matters of propaganda (another issue).

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Can anyone ever recall a musical celebrity who ever spoke about a standing president with such venom? ...such absolute hatred...to me this is akin to treason , to speak about the president in such a manner. 

    Neil Young obviously was not a fan of Nixon. His lyrics contained two sarcastic jabs....not overboard, but you get the picture:

    'Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own. This summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio.'

    'For the hotel queens and the magazines/ test tube genes and slot machines/where even Richard Nixon has got soul/ even Richard Nixon has got it, soul.'

    Not directly stating Dubbya Bush's name , we all know who ole' Neil was talkin' about in 'Let's Impeach The President' on his 'Living With War' LP.

    Of course, John Lennon had to careful with his lyrics, the Nixon Whitehouse was keeping close tabs on him....a jab at Nixon in a song would be grounds to having him deported, especially with his on going drug problems.

    Not known for their political stance, the Ramones took at shot at Ron Reagan ( not using the name but the nickname "Bonzo.") in 'Bonzo Goes To Bitburg'.....Bitburg is a cemetary where Nazi soldiers and SS were buried....Reagan laid a wreath there much to the dismay of many true "victims" of WWII , these were the killers not the victims, but then Bonzo was never too bright anyway, despite what many of you younger folks may have heard. He wasn't even a very good actor.

    Ted also called out "Billary" in his 1995 song "Kiss My @22" obviously striking out at both Clintons in one swipe....

    ...so we know it is not really a "hatred" thing against President Obama , but the Motorcity Madman simply doesn't like Dems....

    ...but can't we be civil in our disagreement, is name calling really necessary? I can respect disagreement with political parties or political figures but when it gets nasty , well...it is just very distasteful, childish and despicable.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from gerbs. Show gerbs's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Neil Young obviously was not a fan of Nixon. His lyrics contained two sarcastic jabs....not overboard, but you get the picture:

    'Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own. This summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio.'

    'For the hotel queens and the magazines/ test tube genes and slot machines/where even Richard Nixon has got soul/ even Richard Nixon has got it, soul.'

    Not directly stating Dubbya Bush's name , we all know who ole' Neil was talkin' about in 'Let's Impeach The President' on his 'Living With War' LP.

    [/QUOTE]

    Neil also had a transparent jab at Bush I:

    "We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man - We got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand"

    Don Henley (with help from Bruce Hornsby) took a none-too-subtle shot at Reagan:

    "They're beating plowshares into swords, for the tired old man that we elected king"

    I do agree that these aren't really overboard ... or is it just different when you agree with the artist?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Not for nothing, but I just read this quote from Sarah Palin:

     

    "If [Abbott] is good enough for Ted Nugent, he is good enough for me."

     

    That pretty much says it all....

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to gerbs' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Neil Young obviously was not a fan of Nixon. His lyrics contained two sarcastic jabs....not overboard, but you get the picture:

    'Tin soldiers and Nixon's coming, we're finally on our own. This summer I hear the drumming, four dead in Ohio.'

    'For the hotel queens and the magazines/ test tube genes and slot machines/where even Richard Nixon has got soul/ even Richard Nixon has got it, soul.'

    Not directly stating Dubbya Bush's name , we all know who ole' Neil was talkin' about in 'Let's Impeach The President' on his 'Living With War' LP.

    [/QUOTE]

    Neil also had a transparent jab at Bush I:

    "We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man - We got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand"

    Don Henley (with help from Bruce Hornsby) took a none-too-subtle shot at Reagan:

    "They're beating plowshares into swords, for the tired old man that we elected king"

    I do agree that these aren't really overboard ... or is it just different when you agree with the artist?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, I had forgot about that one.....Neil's shot at Papa Bush.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ...so we know it is not really a "hatred" thing against President Obama , but the Motorcity Madman simply doesn't like Dems....

    ...but can't we be civil in our disagreement, is name calling really necessary? I can respect disagreement with political parties or political figures but when it gets nasty , well...it is just very distasteful, childish and despicable.

    [/QUOTE]

    This is pretty much it in a nutshell.   The "art" of discussion, debate, and civil discourse is all but lost, and we're going down even further every day with the proliferation of comments on the internet.    The idea of thinking before speaking?  It's all about mouthing off. 

    When I was younger, a friend of mine and I, following the very bad (if not ugly) breakup she'd had with her BF, decided to not only "reveal" what we each thought was the WORST name in the book to call someone, but all the other insulting  names we could think of as well.   I thought my "worst" word was so awful at the time, I started to laugh because I could barely bring myself to tell her what it was; as it turned out, she didn't think it was that bad, and I didn't think her's was that bad either, so we had a good laugh thinking up the meanest names and words we could, and nailed her BF real good, behind his back, of course.  :)

    Well, I laugh about it out loud now, because as you state above, it was childish, but it sure made her feel better b/c at least it made her laugh, and she knew I supported her.  That's the extent of my worst day as a name-caller, I'm happy to report, and because no one got hurt, it lightened the heart of my friend.   

    The name-calling, outlandish criticisms of the POTUS just roll off the tongues of millions of people in this day and age, and sadly, if we let it bother us, we'd be very unhealthy, indeed.  It's a disgrace, but yet, all I or you can do, is simply not play into it.  

    Whart's uncanny is that I was tempted for the past week to make a thread about "comments" on the internet, in general.   It had nothing (less than nothing) to do with the Music Forum, believe me.    Just wanted to know if everyone else was burning out on them, and / or, being more discriminating about posting / reading them in general.

    Maybe it's the cold weather, maybe the long winter, but it just seems, it's never been worse than it is now.   BTW, Zilla, I saw the thread in the news forum a while back, where you were called ignorant, and all I can say is, that person had no idea  who he was dealing with when he said that to you. 

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    As I've indicated in the past, I am a huge fan of classic comedy. 

    Lenny Bruce , Monty Python's Flying Circus and Groucho Marx have all taught me the silliness of name calling. 

    In 'Duck Soup' possibly the best known of the Mark Brothers films, Groucho ( as leader of a make-believe country ) starts all out war with his rival over being called an "upstart." I love this scene where Groucho makes him say the word by playing dumb...he says no, it was that other word.....then when his rival says "upstart" there is no peaceful way to settle the dispute....it means WAR!!!! It really points out how a small thing (being called an upstart) can become a big thing (full scale war).

    The French taunter ( John Cleese)at the castle where King Arthur(Graham Chapman ) and Patsy ( Terry Gilliam) go first in the quest for the Holy Grail is priceless. He calls the Englishmen everything from "wipers of other people's bottoms" to "sons of silly persons" to "English pig-dogs"...one of the most hilarious scenes ever made.

    Lenny Bruce would repeat the N word and do it in such a way that it was no longer offensive, to point how silly it is to get upset about a word. 

    So remember, calling me ignorant is bad, calling me an idiot is also bad, but never , ever call me "upstart!"

    Rather than call Ted Nugent offensive names, I fully expect that if ever asked Mr. Obama will laugh it off. Because he has a sense of humor, and he has a hell of lot more class than Ted Nugent has. 

    But it is possible to like the music , yet not like the person who is making it. 

    You can disagree with Obama's policies ( I don't like some of them , either) , but I fail to see how calling the man a "subhuman mongrel" will solve anything. It is counter productive and it makes the speaker seem childish and stupid. 

    I have never had a problem with people disagreeing with my opinions ( in fact I welcome a chance to discuss). HFnut, DD , Matty and jesseyeric and I have all disagreed on some points, but none of us has ever called the other an ugly name. 

    The politics of our country are in a sad period, worse than I can ever remember. 

    Does Ted Nugent really think he is helping out his Right Wing politicians by being outspoken in an arrogant and crude manner?...I think they should wake up and smell the coffee. This guy cannot do anything but make them look worse, unless he starts showing a little class by confronting an issue in an adult manner.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In theory, words are harmless. In specific settings and social contexts, they are very powerful. They can be used to do good or harm. A slip of the tongue can destroy a relationship, as John Hiatt sings about in "Tip of my Tongue".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqraRL3ty0s

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to yogafriend's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    ...so we know it is not really a "hatred" thing against President Obama , but the Motorcity Madman simply doesn't like Dems....

    ...but can't we be civil in our disagreement, is name calling really necessary? I can respect disagreement with political parties or political figures but when it gets nasty , well...it is just very distasteful, childish and despicable.

    [/QUOTE]

    This is pretty much it in a nutshell.   The "art" of discussion, debate, and civil discourse is all but lost, and we're going down even further every day with the proliferation of comments on the internet.    The idea of thinking before speaking?  It's all about mouthing off. 

    [...]

    The name-calling, outlandish criticisms of the POTUS just roll off the tongues of millions of people in this day and age, and sadly, if we let it bother us, we'd be very unhealthy, indeed.  It's a disgrace, but yet, all I or you can do, is simply not play into it.  

    Whart's uncanny is that I was tempted for the past week to make a thread about "comments" on the internet, in general.   It had nothing (less than nothing) to do with the Music Forum, believe me.    Just wanted to know if everyone else was burning out on them, and / or, being more discriminating about posting / reading them in general.

    Maybe it's the cold weather, maybe the long winter, but it just seems, it's never been worse than it is now.   BTW, Zilla, I saw the thread in the news forum a while back, where you were called ignorant, and all I can say is, that person had no idea  who he was dealing with when he said that to you. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    [warning: rant ahead]


    I agree with you 110% about the erosion of the art of debate and civil discourse.  As a former debater, I'm in tune with the rules of engagement and with logical fallacies, but these skills are rare (if non-existent) in most news- or topical subjects.  

    (IMO, politics is inherently confrontational and brings out the worst instincts in people regardless of how well points are articulated.  The media is highly complicit in this, btw, because they help shape the cultural and social vocabulary.) 

    It's important to have debate and to disagree on public policy.  No single group or constituency has it all figured out, and differences of opinion are necessary.  But there are many ways to frame and argument without devolving into invective and hearsay and character attacks - all of which contribute only to debasing the topics at hand.

    We have always had these debates, however, and we will continue to have them.  The best we can do is ignore the trash-talkers and try to elevate the language to a more civilized plane.  Maybe it's a fools' errand, but that never stopped me before.  :P

    [rant over/]

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to devildavid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In theory, words are harmless. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The words themselves may be harmless...

    ...but the meanings of those words can be devastating.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    And one last thing:

    I've re-thought this issue since my initial post, and while Nugent's comments were reprehensible and racist and neanderthal in their conception...

    ...it occurred to me that the Nuge is still pretty much who I thought he was.  The most surprising thing about it for me is how little I was surprised.

     

    Ultimately, I think we need an "ignore" button for certain public figures.

     

     

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Ted Nugent has issued an apology. He admits that it was wrong.

     

    So, maybe there is hope for the man yet.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Can anyone ever recall a musical celebrity who ever spoke about a standing president with such venom? ...such absolute hatred...to me this is akin to treason , to speak about the president in such a manner. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. I've heard pretty extreme statements on both Bush's and Reagan by musicians and actors. The venom aimed at George W. Bush was as extreme as anything (maybe more) that has been spewed at Obama.

    I can't recall specifics because I try to ignore the extremists on both sides. That's the problem with politics today. The extremists or most provocative on both sides tend to get the spotlight because the opposition tries to paint that view as the norm or mainstream.

    Democrats today get bent out of shape when someone on the extreme right compares Obama to Hitler but they were quiet when extremists on the left did the same to George W. Bush only a few years earlier. And those Republicans who were outraged at those Bush comparisons are quiet with the Obama comparisons.

    Of course, I am painting a bit with a broad brush here. There are reasoable voices on both sides who criticize the extremists on their own side of the political spectrum, but their voices often aren't heard.

    Unfortunately, neither side has the moral high ground. They simply battle each other to see who can go lower. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: How does this happen?

    Anyone who reads history instead of relying on hearsay and rumour is truly laughing out loud anytime someone tries to compare Obama to Hitler. Then when they try to compare Obama to Socialism. Hitler did not want Socialism, he wanted total world domination. He wasn't in favor of giving poor people a chance , he was in favor of making them slaves or executing them. Next time you hear someone say Obama is like Hitler, tell them this is utter nonsense. If they argue , then are complete morons with little or no knowledge of history.

    On the one hand we have Ted Nugent calling Obama a name that Hitler used to describe the lower class , the people only fit for slavery or death....on the other hand we have people who claim Obama is like Hitler. It cannot be both, as they are quite opposite. Perhaps it's neither....anyone ever think of that? 

    Would Hitler put his reputation on the line to introduce a healthcare system to provide affordable care to all Germans?....no he would just have the sick and elderly killed as they were of no use to his plans....they could not serve his purpose as military soldiers , could not help him take over all the countries of Europe before marching on the rest of the world....he wasn't in favor of affordable anything. 

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share