Music and debate: Should the show go on?

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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to SlimPickensIII's comment:

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

    I respected my dad, didn't always agree with him.

     

     

    the lyrics ( if you want to call them that) have nothing good to say, I hear references to women as if they are cattle.

    Maybe I have become my father. Thank you. Maybe more young people today should respect their parents....although if their parents are drug addicts, amybe not.

     

     

     

    You are painting with a very broad brush and very narrow set of eyes.  This Tupac gem is an ode to his Mother:

    http://youtu.be/NzLlqKMA9r4


    You might not like it still, but don't tell me it's not art.

     

    Why?  Because it' about his mother?  Or because he's dead?   

    Sorry, but I so do not buy this coming from you.   

     

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     

    Well, this is a particular and specific question based on a true-life scenario.    You might not believe in censorship in general, but in this scenario, you may.    I happen to feel that the show should go on,  as was endorsed in the editorial.  I would have no problem with it were I a student.   I'd either go and check it out, or make the decision not to attend.    

    And I wouldn't begrudge the decision to let him play, nor have a problem with it.   It's a tradition to hire a rapper; they'll get more than they bargained for, perhaps, by hiring Tyga, but they either roll with it, or censor the concert themselves.   Their choice.   I'm sure there are students that weren't going to attend in the first place, simply because they're not into rap music on any level  -- even when it's benign and socially acceptable (and boring).  :)   

     



    Yeah, I guess my only other comment is this.  If some of the students who signed the petition are doing so because they feel the guy's lyrics truly cross the line into advocating mistreatment of women, I can sympathize with them.

     

    To me one of the big conundrums about censorship is 'where's the line?'  We all have our own views of where that line is, I think.  Some people don't even think there's a line at all.



    If the petition goes through, that's up to them -- as they are self-censoring their own concert.    If they can live with that, so be it.   

    The problem with our society lately is that we often don't (can't?  won't?) see the difference between perception and fact.   Between perception and reality.    It's as though each person's perception has become their own reality.  NOT helpful to learning.  

    Going back to your original statement about the inability and at times refusal, that we (collectively -- across our society) have in terms of conducting reasonable discussions about *anything*  without letting fierce opinions stand in the way, it's downright depressing and discouraging at times.   Worse now than ever.   The use of empty rhetoric is so commonplace with no critical thinking or allowance for scope and breadth.   Even the students in this case -- why not hold an assembly and discuss the issue "live" to see how they feel?  If they did that, and there were intellectual freedom thinkers on both ends of the spectrum, just imagine what they'd learn from each other.    The petition won't do anything of the kind.  

    Heck, they should have asked me.  ;)   

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to SlimPickensIII's comment:

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    Why?  Because it' about his mother?  Or because he's dead? 

     

     


    Sorry, but I so do not buy this coming from you.


    And what is it that you're not buying?  That I like some bits of Rap music?   You don't know me.

    I don't have alot of time to get bogged down in a definition of Art, so I'll leave you with the Tolstoy condensed version of that.  The Tupac song creates an emotional link between the performer and the audience.  The song is autobiographical, and the bulk of it I cannot relate to personally. But the larger message contained within it IS universal.  And more to the point, there is a large group that can relate to more of the lyrics than I do.  And except for a cheesy intro, the music sounds good to me, and his voice is very strong.

    So, what are you really saying?  If there's a point in your response I'm not seeing it.  Looks like you're just trying to shield the Z-man, but he's a big boy, I think he can take care of himself.   If that's not it then you'll have to explain to me why the song is not art.



    I didn't say the song was not art.   Just asked a question.    Get over yourself.   

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

    If a rapper can get chicks mad, why not me?  Here goes:

    Chicks don't listen to lyrics.  I used to woo chicks with ELP's Lucky Man and a guitar.  Worked like a charm.  They would swoon at such a moving Love Ballad.

    I decided not to tell them its about war and death.  Ruins the mojo.

    Laughing



    Greg, this is what was so funny re: the student that started the petition.   She said she'd danced and grooved to the rapper's music hundreds of times ... without ever having listened to the lyrics.    Totally primal response.    She was diggin it.  

    Then, she listened to the lyrics.   At that point, the song became a problem, and yet, she never questioned the idea that maybe she was the one with the problem.  :)   

    I'm sure you had them swooning back in the day.  :)

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    In response to ZILLAGOD's comment:

     

    I don't "get" Rap. And as all the regulars all know, it is difficult for me to comment objectively on any thread that has Rap as part of the subject.

    Rap has a target audience, and I am not part of that audience. It is and always has been aimed at urban teens ( first mainly Blacks, then eventually including Hispanics, Whites and any other kid that felt "uncool" by not listening to it).

    Rap is obviously aimed at a lower I.Q. , a segment of our community that mostly embraces all the wrong things , violence, sex and sexist views, guns, more guns, and more decadent sex.

    If my father was alive ( gone since 1986) , I wonder what he would say.....this is a guy who thought The Beatles had hair that was too long back in 1962 ( when it barely touched their ears)...I don't think he was too fond of "hippy music" ( I loved it though, but certainly not the lifestyle).

    Rap is part of our culture, I am sad to say , a culture that embraces violence ,and sexist views....among other bad things....it's long since time that our society moved on to something else, but I am afrad that " something else" may be another step backwards or downwards into the black hole society seems to love so much.

     



    You seem to have become your father.

     

    And you're right...you don't know anything about rap.

    Zilla, you and I have a lot in common, music-wise, but sorry...I find your post just uninformed on many levels.

    It's not required to be a fan of rap to understand that art and music borne of a culture does not necessarily glorify the worst aspects of that culture.

    That's like saying the blues glorifies satanism, infidelity and crimes of passion.

     

     




     

    You say "you seem to have become your father" like this is a bad thing.

    I respected my dad, didn't always agree with him.

    But, even though I listened to ( and still do ) Punk, Heavy Metal and Psychedlic music.... I never embraced the lifestyle of any of those music styles.

    When Rap music is played, I usually turn it off, change the channel or do whatever possible do avoid listening to this trash. When , on occasion, I can't avoid it... the lyrics ( if you want to call them that) have nothing good to say, I hear references to women as if they are cattle. References to cops as if they are the enemy....well sure there are some bad ones...but seriously, do we need this in music?...if you want to call it music.

    Rap is a repetitive , annoying beat with spoken social commentary. I will never refer to it as music or art.

    A child's finger painting is not considered fine art....why is Rap ( which takes absolutely zero talent) be considered an art form?

    Maybe I have become my father. Thank you. Maybe more young people today should respect their parents....although if their parents are drug addicts, amybe not.



    Trying to keep this respectful...

    ...but what I meant is that you - now - are stereotyping rap just the way your father stereotyped the 'longhairs' back in the sixties.  No offense, but both sentiments are borne of ignorance.  (You can still respect your father if not his tastes in music or hairstyles.)

    Again, whether you refer to rap/hip-hop as music or art is irrelevant, because it is, in fact, both and some is of particularly high quality.  Of course, there are degrees of quality as in any art form, but your obstinance has no reflection on the music itself.  As such you have hurt your credibility to be able to speak to its merits - whatever they may be.

    Since when do you have to embrace the culture or 'lifestyle' of a musical genre to appreciate the music itself?  That notion is simply bizarre to me on its face.  The very idea of constructive criticism takes the art or music on its own terms in relation to - but not dictated by - the culture that spawned it.

    Though I hesitate to say it, I wonder if maybe you're projecting your own stereotypes of the culture surrounding rap (which is both varied and deep) onto the music itself. 

     

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    I'll try to keep my wits about me so this thread doesn't become too divisive (or is it too late?). Jess and Matty have articulated some good points that I pretty much agree with. I love the blues, but the culture it came from would have scared me to death. I really like early hip-hop, but stuff like gangster rap is too harsh for me. In high school, I read the novel Native Son by Richard Wright. This novel has been the target of censors for its depiction of a brutal murder. But the novel is not a glorification of murder. Since I do not listen to hard rap, I'm not sure what point they are trying to make, if any. There was an old blues song called "I'm Gonna Murder My Baby" and the singer went and did it! That doesn't make all blues bad, does it? Murder and crime are often a topic of our entertainment. Look at how popular gangster films have been.

    All my rambling is to try to say that we shouldn't get too hung up about the content of any entertainment as long as we are mature enough to realize that is just what it is; entertainment. You can call just about anything art if you like but that doesn't elevate it to a special place above any criticism. As I keep on harping about, our need to label everything does not have much ultimate meaning.

    I will leave you all with an example of early hip-hop which originally was just party music about having a good time. The Sugarhill Gang and the wonderful "Rapper's Delight" Listen closely to the words, but most of all, have a good time!

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKTUAESacQM

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    Thanks Yoga for responding on the other thread.

    I agree that you do not need to be fully immersed in a culture to like it's music. Is rap really all that different than the blues, or heavy metal. We all live the Blues, and, for the most part can relate to the lyric's and the artist.  Same with metal. Then why not Rap, which has taken that art form to another level.  I cannot fully articulate and intellegently discuss rap's true meaning, because let's be fair here, i am not from that culture, but it does not preclude me from liking it if I choose to.

    Is it the culture, or the music. that people who dislike rap find so offensive? Yeah, there are some songs that glorify, and horrify violence, but you find that in many types of music and art. All I know is that I am against all forms of censorship, and even though I really don't care what a bunch of Harvard students think, if this is what it takes to move the censorship debate forward, well, ok.

     Edit Sorry if I'm being repetitive.

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to polar123's comment:

     

    Is it the culture, or the music. that people who dislike rap find so offensive? Yeah, there are some songs that glorify, and horrify violence, but you find that in many types of music. All I know is that I am against all forms of censorship, and even though I really don't care what a bunch of Harvard students think, if this is what it takes to move the censorship debate forward, well, ok. 

     



    OK, I have to ask, when you say you're against all forms of censorship, what does that mean?  Are you saying that anything and everything should be permitted on the airwaves and in public places?

    I'll use an extreme example.  Most of us have probably heard of a terrible thing called a 'snuff film', where an actual murder has been filmed for entertainment purposes.  Would you object to snuff films being shown on television?

    I'm not trying to single you out at all, but I am trying to explore the point of what total abolition of censorship actually means.

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to polar123's comment:

     

    Is it the culture, or the music. that people who dislike rap find so offensive? Yeah, there are some songs that glorify, and horrify violence, but you find that in many types of music. All I know is that I am against all forms of censorship, and even though I really don't care what a bunch of Harvard students think, if this is what it takes to move the censorship debate forward, well, ok. 

     



    OK, I have to ask, when you say you're against all forms of censorship, what does that mean?  Are you saying that anything and everything should be permitted on the airwaves and in public places?

    I'll use an extreme example.  Most of us have probably heard of a terrible thing called a 'snuff film', where an actual murder has been filmed for entertainment purposes.  Would you object to snuff films being shown on television?

    I'm not trying to single you out at all, but I am trying to explore the point of what total abolition of censorship actually means.

     



    Good point. I really am not that familar with snuff film's, but if it breaks the law than I am against it. What I am saying is that, when you censor one group against another, you are only giving a voice to a few and not the whole, and that's when the trouble starts. There are extreme cases where censorship may be warranted, when lives are at stake, or propaganda is being used over and over again to victimize, but they are the exceptions. When it comes to most art forms, I believe that it is up to the viewer/listener to decide. I probably should have said I am against most forms of censorship. 

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    In response to RogerTaylor's comment:

     

    Let him play(?)! - If he suxx then people will let him know (alcohol and bad music don't mix).

     

    Soft Cell was the opening act of a concert I went to at the old Garden (Cars?) anyway I think they may have played 3 songs before they were booed off stage! Oh, things were thrown at them too!

     

    So let this POS play - if he fails, he fails

     

     


    For once, we agree.  Wink   

    And you're right --- the students are free to react in any way they choose.   Let them decide once the show goes on.    



    Once? (hangs his head a la Charlie Brown)

    Cry

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    Wow, I think this is the most interesting thread I've ever seen, anywhere.  Seriously.  So many ideas floating about.....

    Have started and stopped several times.....will start with contradicting jesse, whom I like and respect a lot.  How the fekk does the sad misogyny of 80s hair bands justify Rap's excesses?  Bundles of sticks?  Female canines?  Long-handled tools to till ground?  

    Rubbish....cruel, ignorant, abusive trash.

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to RogerTaylor's comment:

     

    For once, we agree.  Wink   

    And you're right --- the students are free to react in any way they choose.   Let them decide once the show goes on.    

     

     



    Once? (hangs his head a la Charlie Brown)

     

    Cry

     


    Okay, there have been a few times.   Alabama Shakes was the point of derailment.  Cool  

     

    (I love Peanuts, BTW) 

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    Wow, I think this is the most interesting thread I've ever seen, anywhere.  Seriously.  So many ideas floating about.....

    Have started and stopped several times.....will start with contradicting jesse, whom I like and respect a lot.  How the fekk does the sad misogyny of 80s hair bands justify Rap's excesses?  Bundles of sticks?  Female canines?  Long-handled tools to till ground?  

    Rubbish....cruel, ignorant, abusive trash.



    You think this is an interesting thread?   Really?  

    Well, you already stated your opinion of rap.   (nice job).  

    But what do you think about censoring a rapper at a concert?    Calling off a concert, because students suddenly, after inviting the rapper (for a fee), decide he's not the *right* kind of politically correct rapper, but you know, a rapper that's into "cruel, abusive trash" ??    Should the show go on, or should he be shown the exit?

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    But what do you think about censoring a rapper at a concert?    Calling off a concert, because students suddenly, after inviting the rapper (for a fee), decide he's not the *right* kind of politically correct rapper, but you know, a rapper that's into "cruel, abusive trash" ??    Should the show go on, or should he be shown the exit?



    Personally, I don't care that much about this specific situation, and I don't know all the facts of how it happened.  But it's not clear to me that the student body as a whole thought this was a great idea in the first place.  Yes, a committee that represents them booked Tyga.  But maybe it was a bonehead decision by the committee.  It doesn't mean the student body as a whole can't give it some second thought and say it was a mistake.  If the majority of students feel strongly enough about it, they should be able to vote to tell the guy to keep his money but not show up.  Majority rule. 

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

     

    Wow, I think this is the most interesting thread I've ever seen, anywhere.  Seriously.  So many ideas floating about.....

    Have started and stopped several times.....will start with contradicting jesse, whom I like and respect a lot.  How the fekk does the sad misogyny of 80s hair bands justify Rap's excesses?  Bundles of sticks?  Female canines?  Long-handled tools to till ground?  

    Rubbish....cruel, ignorant, abusive trash.

     



    You think this is an interesting thread?   Really?  

     

    Well, you already stated your opinion of rap.   (nice job).  

    But what do you think about censoring a rapper at a concert?    Calling off a concert, because students suddenly, after inviting the rapper (for a fee), decide he's not the *right* kind of politically correct rapper, but you know, a rapper that's into "cruel, abusive trash" ??    Should the show go on, or should he be shown the exit?



    Hi yoga.  I'm totally supportive of any legal view to be espoused.....the classic libertarian dilemma is does a decent person support the police protection of the KKK to march through Harlem?  One should, and I do.

    As for these rank amateurs booking then cancelling this show....pathetic.   Embarrassing.  Either they didn't know what they were booking....or did and bottled it when the going got tough.

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    OK, we all agree that the committee are boneheads.  But given that, should the population that elected them be able to overrule this decision if they feel strongly enough?  The political process here should be part of the discussion too. 

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     

    Well, this is a particular and specific question based on a true-life scenario.    You might not believe in censorship in general, but in this scenario, you may.    I happen to feel that the show should go on,  as was endorsed in the editorial.  I would have no problem with it were I a student.   I'd either go and check it out, or make the decision not to attend.    

    And I wouldn't begrudge the decision to let him play, nor have a problem with it.   It's a tradition to hire a rapper; they'll get more than they bargained for, perhaps, by hiring Tyga, but they either roll with it, or censor the concert themselves.   Their choice.   I'm sure there are students that weren't going to attend in the first place, simply because they're not into rap music on any level  -- even when it's benign and socially acceptable (and boring).  :)   

     



    Yeah, I guess my only other comment is this.  If some of the students who signed the petition are doing so because they feel the guy's lyrics truly cross the line into advocating mistreatment of women, I can sympathize with them.

     

    To me one of the big conundrums about censorship is 'where's the line?'  We all have our own views of where that line is, I think.  Some people don't even think there's a line at all.



    Hi hf.  To me there are two lines:

    • The law
    • One's personal morals

    I have never heard of this "Tyga" person, to be honest.   As long as he's not breaking the law he has every right to say what he wants.  And people have the right to protest if they think he is offensive.

    I get frustrated by the increasingly common view that people have the right to not be offended.  No they do not. 

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     

    But what do you think about censoring a rapper at a concert?    Calling off a concert, because students suddenly, after inviting the rapper (for a fee), decide he's not the *right* kind of politically correct rapper, but you know, a rapper that's into "cruel, abusive trash" ??    Should the show go on, or should he be shown the exit?

     



    Personally, I don't care that much about this specific situation, and I don't know all the facts of how it happened.  But it's not clear to me that the student body as a whole thought this was a great idea in the first place.  Yes, a committee that represents them booked Tyga.  But maybe it was a bonehead decision by the committee.  It doesn't mean the student body as a whole can't give it some second thought and say it was a mistake.  If the majority of students feel strongly enough about it, they should be able to vote to tell the guy to keep his money but not show up.  Majority rule. 

    You are always very fair-minded.  

    Please go back to the editorial (I pasted it into the second comment space earlier in the thread) and re-read it.   It has all the information you need to give the cancellation petition more thought.  I think it's spot on, concise, and I agree with it 100% -- and thought it would spawn a good discussion here.    I don't mind that people veered off into discussing rap music and got into the "art trap",  that's a valid part of the discussion; it's very clear that there is not one road to rap, as, like any genre, it has many styles and many messages. 

    It's an old adage, but "you can't judge a book by its cover" seems to be the best way to characterize what happened: the students who booked Tyga thought he was just another rapper,  one they could afford with the funds they were given.  

    If you see the other universities where he is booked, you will also see that it's not widespread panic on all college campuses to have this rapper perform.   That's another aspect of the equation.  Harvard is here in our backyard, so it's a local story (I think of you as an honorary Bostonian, BTW) so it's doubly ironic, as they have a rep not only for being darn smart, but also for being liberal.    Neither one is apparent as it pertains to letting the show go on.   :)   

    See you later.  

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:

    Hi yoga.  I'm totally supportive of any legal view to be espoused.....the classic libertarian dilemma is does a decent person support the police protection of the KKK to march through Harlem?  One should, and I do.

    As for these rank amateurs booking then cancelling this show....pathetic.   Embarrassing.  Either they didn't know what they were booking....or did and bottled it when the going got tough.



    Nail.  Head.   (Of course, that's because you agree with me ... )

    This is the heart of the issue, IMO, and yes, it makes them look pathetic to cancel the show.        Of course it is their choice, their school, their festival, but it's also their values and their potential (lack of) ability to tease apart the issues to see that cancelling the show is a decision that is empty at its core.    

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to yogafriend's comment:

     

    It's an old adage, but "you can't judge a book by its cover" seems to be the best way to characterize what happened: the students who booked Tyga thought he was just another rapper,  one they could afford with the funds they were given.  

     



    I've always loved St. Bo and I think in the end he'll have become my favourite musician.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-bnM29vzEk

     
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    Re: Music and debate: Should the show go on?

    ...not sure this can be surpassed musically, aesthetically or otherwise:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeZHB3ozglQ

     
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