RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks

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    [QUOTE]As for the Hip Hop/Rap debate and whether it belongs. Matty's point of Rap being an extension of Rock is absolute. Rap Metal is considered a RnR genre which has done well. Linkin Park is an example. However, I do not believe pure rap/hip hop belongs for the simple reason that there will be a Rap/Hip Hop Hall of Fame one day and I can guarantee that not one of these Rock Bands will ever be inducted. I understand Run/DMC - they did some good crossover stuff. The same with NWA, Public Enemy and a few others. You can here the rock influence in their music. But JZ, Puffy Pizzhead and the rest have no place ever going into the Hall.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

                                          RnB, Soul, Funk
                                          /                |
                                       Rock             Hip Hop/Rap
                                            |            /
                                             Rap/Rock

     i think of rap and hip hop as brothers, rather than an offshoot. although hip hop is a much younger brother...

    i was happy with the outcome of yesterday's discussion with matty, as i feel hip hop gets shouldered into a subgenre of rock when in fact i contend it used some of the same influences as rock to create something different...

    as they both developed, they began to share and merge more, so that elements are recognized in both forms separately, not just as rap/rock.


    linkin park sucks. limp bizkit sucked.
    rage is the only one who mastered it, because tom morello is an absolute beast, and his innovation is only matched by his virtuosity
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks :                                       RnB, Soul, Funk                                       /                  \                                    Rock             Hip Hop/Rap                                          \            /                                           Rap/Rock  i think of rap and hip hop as brothers, rather than an offshoot. although hip hop is a much younger brother... i was happy with the outcome of yesterday's discussion with matty, as i feel hip hop gets shouldered into a subgenre of rock when in fact it used some of the same influences as rock to create something different... as they both developed, they began to share and merge more, so that elements are recognized in both forms separately, not just as rap/rock. linkin park sucks. limp bizkit sucked. rage is the only one who mastered it, because tom morello is an absolute beast, and his innovation is only matched by his virtuosity
    Posted by phsmith8[/QUOTE]

    Just curious, why does Linkin Park suck in your opinion?
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks : Just curious, why does Linkin Park suck in your opinion?
    Posted by polar123[/QUOTE]

    i remember when they first came out, and they were angry as hell, they were badass, and they didn't hold back...

    as it progressed, they just seemed to realize what they needed to do to make hits, and replicate this formula...(as many bands do, unfortunately)

    instrumentation: chunky, simplistic guitar...occasional dj scratches...a few ambient sounds...repeat

    vocals: whiny, often screamed vocal hooks by chester (betancourt, i think)
    repetitive, faux-introspective monotone raps by mike shinota

    shinota actually branched off a few years back to make fort minor, and his beats and rhymes with that project are actually pretty killer.

    they seem to have found themselves with their new album, though. guess what? produced by rick reuben, and they credit him immensely with their re-invention of sorts.

    i guess what it comes down to is that they annoy the hell out of me...

    i heard a long time ago that they were put together like a boy band, but i'm not sure if that's true.
     
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    i guess i get so defensive about hip hop being its own thing because i also make beats...i know what it takes to put hours and hours into composing a beat (not sampling other artists), layering everything, mixing everything, meticulously poring over every last measure...i feel for it, and the lack of recognition it continues to get as its own thing.

    though i do feel that what it has become is the demise of popular music as we know it.  a voice is an instrument, but when a rapper uses his voice over music with complete disregard to melody or notes, it kind of denotes the quality of the voice as music...and it just becomes someone talking over someone else's music.
     
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    I'll add Faith No More as another rap-rock standout...tragically underrated but for the success of "Epic"...

    And, of course, the one-and-only often-imitated never-duplicated Cypress Hill...

    ...who had killer collaborations with Sonic Youth and Pearl Jam on the Judgment Night soundtrack -- an all-around excellent example of the subgenre.

    Like a lot of fusion of styles, when it works, it's bloody brilliant....

     
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    In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks:
    [QUOTE]I'll add Faith No More as another rap-rock standout...tragically underrated but for the success of "Epic"... And, of course, the one-and-only often-imitated never-duplicated Cypress Hill... ...who had killer collaborations with Sonic Youth and Pearl Jam on the Judgment Night soundtrack -- an all-around excellent example of the subgenre. Like a lot of fusion of styles, when it works, it's bloody brilliant....
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]

    absolutely, faith no more is amazing.

    i saw cypress hill live one year at the rock the bells tour with wu tang, and they absolutely killed it...blew wu tang out of the water. it makes a HUGE difference to have a live band who knows what they're doing.

    another one who i thought was really good and interesting was Everlast...
    he was originally from House of Pain, who sings the never-dying "jump around"

    his laid back acoustic/hip hop style album (i believe called whitey ford sings the blues) was awesome...standout tracks were "what it's like" and "black jesus"


    another thing worth mentioning is that without george clinton and the parliament funkadelic, hip hop/rap would not exist as we know it. G-funk would have never existed, and Dr. Dre. would not be treating patients as he does today.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks : i remember when they first came out, and they were angry as hell, they were badass, and they didn't hold back... as it progressed, they just seemed to realize what they needed to do to make hits, and replicate this formula...(as many bands do, unfortunately) instrumentation: chunky, simplistic guitar...occasional dj scratches...a few ambient sounds...repeat vocals: whiny, often screamed vocal hooks by chester (betancourt, i think) repetitive, faux-introspective monotone raps by mike shinota shinota actually branched off a few years back to make fort minor, and his beats and rhymes with that project are actually pretty killer. they seem to have found themselves with their new album, though. guess what? produced by rick reuben, and they credit him immensely with their re-invention of sorts. i guess what it comes down to is that they annoy the hell out of me... i heard a long time ago that they were put together like a boy band, but i'm not sure if that's true.
    Posted by phsmith8[/QUOTE]

    I agree to some extent, when Linkin Park's first album came out it sort grabbed hold of you because it sounded totally different from just about everything else out at the time. Yes, they have become repetitive, but based on albums sales, it seems that is just what the record buying public expects and wants from them. In their defense, I do think that they have been one of the few bands to successfully fuse together a many different styles of music be it rap, hip-hop, R@R and make it commercially appealing to the masses. 

    Boy band, yeah I can see that.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks : I agree to some extent, when Linkin Park's first album came out it sort grabbed hold of you because it sounded totally different from just about everything else out at the time. Yes, they have become repetitive, but based on albums sales, it seems that is just what the record buying public expects and wants from them. In their defense, I do think that they have been one of the few bands to successfully fuse together a many different styles of music be it rap, hip-hop, R@R  and make it commercially appealing to the masses.  Boy band, yeah I can see that.
    Posted by polar123[/QUOTE]

    yeah, agreed.

    speaking of polar, did you know that penguins have a gland above their eyes that converts seawater into freshwater for drinking purposes? i learned that the other day. i think that's amazing.

    also in ancient times they used to be up to 5 ft tall and 300 pounds. what imagery!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks : yeah, agreed. speaking of polar, did you know that penguins have a gland above their eyes that converts seawater into freshwater for drinking purposes? i learned that the other day. i think that's amazing. also in ancient times they used to be up to 5 ft tall and 300 pounds. what imagery!
    Posted by phsmith8[/QUOTE]

    I did know that!!! Amazing little creatures who can sleep on the ocean, and use a form of sign language to communicate with their pals....
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

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    Faith No More was it.

    Now I apologize to everyone for this. For this is just a personal opinion.

    But let me make myself perfectly clear - Rage Against The Machine were the most useless band I ever heard. Sorry guys - Morello is over-rated and that singer needed to be put out of his misery. I don't even know his name because I thought he was a poser of the worst kind. I hate Che t-shirts.

    Sorry - but Rage is the male equivalent of Patti Smith. I hate them so much, it is not even funny.
     
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    [QUOTE]i guess i get so defensive about hip hop being its own thing because i also make beats...i know what it takes to put hours and hours into composing a beat (not sampling other artists), layering everything, mixing everything, meticulously poring over every last measure...i feel for it, and the lack of recognition it continues to get as its own thing. though i do feel that what it has become is the demise of popular music as we know it.  a voice is an instrument, but when a rapper uses his voice over music with complete disregard to melody or notes, it kind of denotes the quality of the voice as music...and it just becomes someone talking over someone else's music.
    Posted by phsmith8[/QUOTE] You would be less defensive and better served if you remember that HipHop is an entire cultural body of study, with music an integral part of it.  So yeah, it is its own thing.

    My love of archives (and all that is esoteric) got me where I am today:

    http://www.hiphoparchive.org/about

     
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    [QUOTE]Faith No More was it. Now I apologize to everyone for this. For this is just a personal opinion. But let me make myself perfectly clear - Rage Against The Machine were the most useless band I ever heard. Sorry guys - Morello is over-rated and that singer needed to be put out of his misery. I don't even know his name because I thought he was a poser of the worst kind. I hate Che t-shirts. Sorry - but Rage is the male equivalent of Patti Smith. I hate them so much, it is not even funny.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    haha, this post actually made me smile. not surprising at all. i love that you despise certain things so much.

    have you tried giving audioslave a shot? it's the band from rage, toned down, and minus the rapper (zach de la rocha) and plus chris cornell. (i know you respect cornell at the very least, his voice is amazing).

    really solid first album they put out, and i saw them live when lollapalooza came around...they were awesome. the drummer was facing a wall of mirrors at the back of the stage. 

    i'm not the biggist fan of zach de la rocha, but the things morello did with and to his guitar are pretty crazy. besides being able to sweep and shred with the best of them, he literally took his guitar apart and made it sound like nothing anyone had ever heard. he took metal guitar (with PERFECT tone, i might add) and formed it in a more normal rock format.

    i know you don't like them, and i respect your opinion. however,
     
    for me when i was 14 and first heard "F*** YOU, I WON'T DO WHAT YOU TELL ME," it was AWESOME.

    i'm sure you had some "aha!" moments like that when you were a rebellious teen, jessey.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: RnR Hall of Fame - Your picks : You would be less defensive and better served if you remember that HipHop is an entire cultural body of study, with music an integral part of it.  So yeah, it is its own thing. My love of archives (and all that is esoteric) got me where I am today: http://www.hiphoparchive.org/about
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]

    i know i'm overbearing when i get passionate about something (and most of the time, i'm sure), sorry...and i do remember it, i just want everyone else to understand!

    great link. sorry!
     
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    [QUOTE]Faith No More was it. Now I apologize to everyone for this. For this is just a personal opinion. But let me make myself perfectly clear - Rage Against The Machine were the most useless band I ever heard. Sorry guys - Morello is over-rated and that singer needed to be put out of his misery. I don't even know his name because I thought he was a poser of the worst kind. I hate Che t-shirts. Sorry - but Rage is the male equivalent of Patti Smith. I hate them so much, it is not even funny.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    No apologies, necessary, jesse.  When lyrics are so militant in nature and tone, it tends to turn off people who might otherwise appreciate the music itself.  By that token, one either digs it or not.

    However, I would recommend giving Morello's The Nightwatchman/Audioslave/ Axis Of Justice projects a listen before writing him off as overrated.  In terms of innovation and technique, he is by far one of the most respected guitarists of the past 20 years, right up there with Jonny Greenwood, Jack White, Mike Portnoy, Slash, et al.  Some of his acoustic work is truly stunning.

    Again, some may dislike his politics and activism, but there's little question of his axework.... 
     
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    another interesting thing about morello is that he graduated from harvard...not that it particularly means anything.
     
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    I certainly gave Audioslave a chance and actually did enjoy some of their music. To me, along with Geoff Tate of Queensryche, Chris is probably one of the better vocalists to hit the scene in the last 25 years. So I am not dismissing AS - but they could have been much better.

    And when discussing Morello, it is not that I don't believe him to be a good musician, but I have heard far too many people putting him in the same conversation as Beck, Page, Hendrix, Blackmore, etc. To me, Morello just isn't tasty with his riffs. There is no question that he can shred, but I just am not feeling it and he doesn't belong in the same conversation. Morello is in the same category with Buckethead.

    Thanks - de la Roach. Hate him for all its worth. If I want to hear politically charged angry RnR, I will take out my old MC5 albums. I believe his anger was all a put on. I think he was a bigger poser than Brett Michaels. And that is saying a lot. At least Brett admitted to what he is.

    Anyway, sorry for venting - I know R.A.M. has a huge following. And I mean no disrespect to their fans.
     
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    Thank you HFX for this. I dare any guy here who was a teen back when she hit in 1973 - 74 to not have lost his mind just a bit when watching her pounce the stage with bass in hand and leather from head to toe. I remember seeing her open for Alice way back when. Her music was innocent enough (pop-glam crossover), but it was the image she portrayed that was so influential to other women.

    Like I said - no Suzi; no Joan.
     
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    [QUOTE] To me, Morello just isn't tasty with his riffs. There is no question that he can shred, but I just am not feeling it and he doesn't belong in the same conversation. Morello is in the same category with Buckethead. Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    to be fair, it's hard to be as tasty with your riffs when you don't have a rhythm guitarist. you have to incorporate root notes and chords whenever you can while riffing.

    buckethead is amazing, especially when he plays with les claypool. Colonel Claypool's Bucket of Bernie Brains. but i can see what you mean by not tasty.
     
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    Page was always tasy live and he had no second guitarist. Same with Beck, Hendrix , etc.

    Agreed, Buckethead is also an amazing shredder, but he is second tier to me. Even Yngie M. could play without a second guitarist.

    Did you know that Les actually audioned for Metallica when Cliff died?
     
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    I'm just kiddin' around with you musician types, but what exactly does "tasty" mean?  Tongue out

     
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    [QUOTE]Page was always tasy live and he had no second guitarist. Same with Beck, Hendrix , etc. Agreed, Buckethead is also an amazing shredder, but he is second tier to me. Even Yngie M. could play without a second guitarist. Did you know that Les actually audioned for Metallica when Cliff died?
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    i did know that, and i found that hilarious...i forget the reasoning why he didnt get picked, but i remember hearing it.

    i would never put morello up next to page, that's for sure.... i have watched a few zep live DVDs and he kills it, though they do lose a lot of sound because of the way page records...he layers so many guitars in his recordings that it sounds like a brick wall.

    have you ever gotten into primus? Frizzle Fry is one of my top 10 albums. i caught them at the orpheum theatre a few years back...what a live show. unreal how much claypool owns that instrument. and a few others he brings out. and one he made up, at least i think. (whamola)
     
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    Another guitarist who heavily layered and arranged his guitar work was Brian May. And yet, even live, he was able to produce such a full sound considering it was just one guitar.

    Brian should never be out of the conversation when discussing the greats.
     
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    Tasty -

    In the 90's and this century, so many musicians were becoming Olympian athletes on their instruments, shredding like there was no tomorrow. But they just didn't know when to pull back, and let the instrument lead instead of the speed of his fingers. Soul and melody are just as important as speed. Maybe even more.

    I can give you a very good example. Def Leppard's Steve Clark was one of the tastiest guitar players that came out of the 80's. Technically, he was off-kilter, but he was able to compose and play some of the most interesting guitar sounds I ever heard. Listen to Gods of War from the Hysteria album. You will know what I mean.

    Also, listen to Switch from the High and Dry Album.
     
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    Funny, but I thought Morello's work with Audioslave was exactly the kind of meat-and-potatoes rock riffing we didn't hear as much with RATM.

    I'm not putting him up there with the original golden gods, either, but again, there's very few within the past 20 years who can match him in the technique dept.

    As for de la Roche, I've seen no evident proof that any of his beliefs were a 'put on' any more than other hardcore/straightedge punk acts ala Minor Threat, Black Flag or even Public Enemy.  I've met Chuck D - he's actually a sweet, smart, funny guy - but there's no question that he meant what he said and he said what he meant.

    Ironically or not, Wayne Kramer has played with Morello on several occasions and can be heard on the Axis of Justice CD Morello did with Serj Tankian.  Kramer referred to RATM as the MC5's stylistic heirs.
     
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    Like I said Matty - Roach may very well be one of those musicians I would hate no matter what. The support he threw behind that Cop Killer will always be a sticking point with me.

    Myley Cyrus performed with Joan Jett yesterday. Still doesn't give her anymore cred in my books.
     

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