Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Do any of you know if there is a standard clause in the contract agreements of female vocalists where they must agree to appear in their underwear on stage?   Oh, wait, my bad -- the clause gives the option of wearing a bikini.  :D

    First, let me say, I'm a card carrying member of the "if you've got it, flaunt it" club. Eye candy is a wonderful thing. Additionally, the iconic RnR gods and heroes live by their own rules, dress the way they want to dress, and some of us live life vicariously through them, even the most badass among them. It would be a footnote in the news if a rock star announced that s/he had a 12-year old "love child" through an affair, that their spouse didn't know about. Oh, wait. More than one spouse? Seriously. We'd snore right through it. :)

    Pardon the detour. My point?

    Overall, a considerably small percentage of female vocalists have gone over the edge in the trend to dress totally leer worthy. However, the ones that do, tend to absorb a very large percentage of attention. Among the ones that are getting the attention, there seems to be more than a mere whiff of an attitude. The difference between "then" and "now" seems to be the attitude. And what's wrong with the attitude?

    It's -- just -- so -- smug.

    It's not empowering, not to the performer, or to the so-called fans. The message is degrading - prurient - smarmy. Has it always been like *that*? Basically, the skin overshadows the music. Sure, those female rockers we loved, and still love, found a way of being alluring, but the music was the message, maybe accompanied by some skin, but now it seems that the skin is accompanied by the music. Is the music that bad, that generic, that this is the only way a female can set herself apart from all the mediocrity out there? Is this 2011's answer to bringing sexy back? Sure, music videos have been provocative for years, but it's more than that.

    Get over it? I don't need to "get over it" as much as I can't help but feel it's pathetic. And you? Any comments?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Unrelated but sorta, I saw David Coverdale on That Metal Show (a guilty pleasure) recently, and he clearly looked back on the 80s videos with his then wife, knockout redhead Tawny Kitaen with a bit of remorse and embarrassment.

    Obviously at the time, he was willing to play along to get his music known, and videos were practically mandatory then.  But he said he wondered at the time if the videos were just well-produced slices of cheese with little redeeming value.

    In the same vein, hip-hop videos were and are by-the-book affairs featuring plenty of C- and D-cups (and more) and plenty of healthy, well-formed boo-ty.  Naughty by Nature, anyone...?

    We've discussed misogyny in rock/pop music before, and there seems to be few real answers except for the fact that most rock music is about SEX in the first place.  So if the bands are looking for sex, writing about sex and encouraging sexual imagery, where is the line drawn...??

    Where art is concerned, the dilemma is centuries old.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Matty,

    Where "art" is concerned is a pretty sweeping statement.  Smile

    And saying it's a centuries old issue -- so we haven't evolved at all?  Or we don't have more female empowerment than we did a century ago?

    And "sex" is fine, and the message in the songs, so what else is new?   But I do see a devolution or a change (or sea change) in the attitude.    And that attitude is not about the glorification of sex.   It smacks of trading in and yes, selling out for females, what your real talent and sexualty are, by throwing yourself on a stage moreorless naked.  

    And I'm fine with that if it's in a strip club, you know. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    But handsome and pretty people get elected to public office more easily than ugly people, and looks have nothing to do with the job they are being elected to do.  Handsome tall men get paid more than ugly short men, and, again, looks and height have nothing to do with the the deal, but they DO have to do with the ART of the deal.  Flaunting a woman's sexuality with the music boosts sales. It's neither new nor fixable - it's human nature and always has been.
     
  5. This post has been removed.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from phsmith8. Show phsmith8's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    your girl adele is a great example of modesty, but at the same time she is not a very great example. quite frankly i don't think she would be helping her image if she went out there half-naked.

    i'm not a huge fan of their music, but i always thought that haley williams from paramore kept it very simple, and she has a crazy good voice (imo).

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]But handsome and pretty people get elected to public office more easily than ugly people, and looks have nothing to do with the job they are being elected to do.  Handsome tall men get paid more than ugly short men, and, again, looks and height have nothing to do with the the deal, but they DO have to do with the ART of the deal.  Flaunting a woman's sexuality with the music boosts sales. It's neither new nor fixable - it's human nature and always has been.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE] Hi Kar,
    As I said, I actually feel that it's a very small percentage of female vocalists who trend in this direction.  So I am talking about the ones who are WAY OUT on the edge, not in the middle zone.

    Good points, but I'm really not talking about mainstream employment patterns.  Smile

    If anything, many if not most of the *male* rock stars I have always loved tend to be among the least attractive by the standard of the norm.  

    As for females in the music industry, it's a not a secret that there used to be a glass ceiling.  Now, seems if you take your clothes off, you've made it, you don't have to work for it.   And that is part of what I am talking about.  And also just seeing who wants to chime into the conversation, since everyone seems to have something to say about sex, you know?  Wink
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    I have long been aware that the general public is easily manipulated by attractive, sexy, colorful, handsome and cute.

    People should follow the old adage and not judge a book by it's cover.

    Rock women such as Suzanne Vega and Joni Mitchell are talented singer/songwriters. Grace Slick, while very beautiful as a young women, was also very talented. None of these women ever (to my knowledge) used the sexy approach to selling the music (while Pat Benatar did, once Rock videos came into fashion...but she was good without the visual,too).

    Some of our greatest actors are not the most handsome guys. Ernest Borginine, Robert Duvall and Gene Hackman (three of my favorites) were successful because they could act, not because they were handsome devils.

    The use of sexy women and sex in general to sell pop music in today's market proves that this trend is worse now than ever. Also there is a direct parallel in movies where movies are emphasizing the special effects and the attractiveness of the actors and actresses, no longer are we seeing great actors, but great-looking actors.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]your girl adele is a great example of modesty, but at the same time she is not a very great example. quite frankly i don't think she would be helping her image if she went out there half-naked. i'm not a huge fan of their music, but i always thought that haley williams from paramore kept it very simple, and she has a crazy good voice (imo).
    Posted by phsmith8[/QUOTE]Of course Adele is a good example, with the image to accompany it.  Good point about image, too.

    I didn't see the show, but I did read that GaGa performed on the American Idol finale, and it was very controversial (no surprise) -- I saw a bunch of comments on it on Yahoo, and most of them were red hot and scathing that her act was almost soft porn and (I read the comments, that's all!) felt that it should not have been on network tv.  So I guess either the people commenting were very  conservative or are prudes, maybe?  LaughingOr should have turned off the tv if they had a kid in the room?   I mean, we all know how talented she is, right? (piano roots notwithstanding)
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from leafswin27. Show leafswin27's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Well for me one of the most talented female musicians (probably #1 for me) and part time vocalist is Kim Deal. I could care less what she looks like ..she is so talented and I apprecaite her work.. Kim is one never to be considered a sex symbol. now sure how this falls into this discussion but wanted to offer it out.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Appreciate your thoughts, Zilla, and you're right on the money.  

    You know it's funny, b/c I was laughing at how alluring tight jeans, some cleavage and boots are -- that's almost a burka in comparison to the fashion trend I am referring to.  I don't care how tight the clothes are, I don't care what they look like, I don't care what they reveal -- but at least it's clothing! 

    I don't see the trend with indie singers, either.  Liz Phair was pretty hot in her day, but she never went to that level.  Or Aimee Mann, Tori Amos, Courtney Love (ha ha, seriously), Tanya Donnelly, the list goes on.   In fact, I think most of these musicians are very accessible in terms of their looks. 


    "The use of sexy women and sex in general to sell pop music in today's market proves that this trend is worse now than ever. Also there is a direct parallel in movies where movies are emphasizing the special effects and the attractiveness of the actors and actresses, no longer are we seeing great actors, but great-looking actors.

    I do agree with this.  It seems to just keep going back to the idea that if you're going to be noticed, this is the approach that is used.   It's worse now than ever because competing for a market share has become more difficult due to the mediocrity in the music that is out there for this brand of female artist. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]Well for me one of the most talented female musicians (probably #1 for me) and part time vocalist is Kim Deal. I could care less what she looks like ..she is so talented and I apprecaite her work.. Kim is one never to be considered a sex symbol. now sure how this falls into this discussion but wanted to offer it out.
    Posted by leafswin27[/QUOTE]Actually, your point falls into the discussion quite nicely, LW.   You know she's great, you know she's talented, you appreciate her work -- and you can do that with your eyes closed.  You've been pretty consistent with your praise of Kim Deal, too.   And can you imagine what would happen if her agent or manager walked up to her one day and told her that she needed to start to shed her clothes in order to stay on top?  Seriously?  I'd like to be around the day that happens.   :)
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from phsmith8. Show phsmith8's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    i think another good point is that most of these musiciennes (i think i just made that up...) who are scantily clad are not generally playing instruments...which i think makes a big difference in WHY they would dress provocatively, and in some cases they HAVE to in order to distract from whatever they are lacking talentwise.

    i guess that most of the ones throughout history who caused the most disruption weren't the ones who played their own instruments (at least live).
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Who besides Lady Gaga are you referring to, yogafriend?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]Who besides Lady Gaga are you referring to, yogafriend?
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]
    Hfx,
    As mentioned, it is a small percentage that gets the very large percentage of attention, but along with GaGa:
    Rhianna
    Miley Cyrus
    Katy Perry
    Britney Spears (and others, I am sure)

    Also, last week, I turned on the tv during the opening number of the Billboard award show, which I did not proceed to watch, but I did see the opening number, and admittedly, this is what got me on this line of thinking.  Rhianna sang your "favorite" song, you know the one, and with the singing, added simulated S&M to the performance ... and then came Spears to join her!   Pole dancing.  Oh, I just laughed at the thought of anyone watching this with their kids in the room! So there you go.  And yes, the attitude that accompanied this fine performance was not something I was imagining.  

    And I have a pretty high tolerance as I dress in spandex quite often myself.
     Cool
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    I think the way these women are dressing and performing on stage is just part and parcel of the lewdness in the music being sold out there.  There's no subtlety with the sexual content in the music my daughter's generation is hearing.  So many songs with lines like 'Call me Mr. Flintstone, I can make your Bed Rock.'  They're being inundated by it.  I think at some point, hopefully, people will get tired of it.  Does this go back to the censorship issue we were talking about before?

    I've had 'movie channel' cable TV for a long time now, and about 10-15 years ago it was a pretty shocking development when they started showing hard-core porn movies late at night.  Before that there was plenty of soft-core but this was a pretty big step.  Somewhere along the road censorship laws were changed. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    When you go to the grocery store, you will see that all the ragsheets have artists like Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus and Brittany Spears on the covers almost weekly.

    They are not really artists selling music as much as they are celebrities marketing themselves.

    Now that Steven Tyler is a host of American Idol he has also become ragsheet fodder....no great loss , his group stopped making anything resmbling "good music" around 1980.

    These people are not artists, they are mercenaries. They do not have any shame about how they make money or gain fame. They are the real "sellouts" that newman is talking about on his thread. They only know one thing , popular=fame=money. Neil Young is an artist. He could have made another song like 'Heart of Gold' and capitalized on his fame in 1972, instead he released albums like "On The Beach" and "Tonight's The Night", commercial disasters , but artistic genius and underground classics. He followed this up with "Rust Never Sleeps" which was "grunge before grunge."

    What is disturbing is that the vast majority of our society considers Lady Gaga an "artist." She is a mercenary. She will do whatever it takes to get herself noticed, a costume made of meat, walk around semi-nude, paint a bullseye on her forehead...whatever. It is sad that people can't see bald faced phonies for what they are. She is using the media to market her music, because it cannot stand on it's own merit...because it has none.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Maybe I'm overdoing it with the moralizing here, but I would think people like Rihanna and Britney Spears would have a little extra incentive to put out a message that sex and relationships aren't all fun 'n' games.  Rihanna was beaten up pretty badly by Chris Brown and here she is singing about S & M.  Britney's sister was pregnant at 16.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]Maybe I'm overdoing it with the moralizing here, but I would think people like Rihanna and Britney Spears would have a little extra incentive to put out a message that sex and relationships aren't all fun 'n' games.  Rihanna was beaten up pretty badly by Chris Brown and here she is singing about S & M.  Britney's sister was pregnant at 16.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    But what else could they sing about? The image they have made for themselves is of promiscuous young women who crave sex 24/7. They are not capable of singing a song like "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitgerald" or "Cortez the Killer"...songs that have a storyline, it would be 180 degrees from their style. Their fanbase expects songs about sexual relationships. Even 'Crazy Train' has a better storyline. Try to imagine one of these pop starlets singing Ozzie songs....for a laugh. This would almost be like Anita Bryant singing David Bowie's 'Changes'.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    So what you're saying, Zilla, is that it's a case of 'give the people what they want' including the image of total sexual availability.  I think you're right.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]When you go to the grocery store, you will see that all the ragsheets have artists like Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Miley Cyrus and Brittany Spears on the covers almost weekly. They are not really artists selling music as much as they are celebrities marketing themselves. Now that Steven Tyler is a host of American Idol he has also become ragsheet fodder....no great loss , his group stopped making anything resmbling "good music" around 1980. These people are not artists, they are mercenaries. They do not have any shame about how they make money or gain fame. They are the real "sellouts" that newman is talking about on his thread. They only know one thing , popular=fame=money.

    Neil Young is an artist. He could have made another song like 'Heart of Gold' and capitalized on his fame in 1972, instead he released albums like "On The Beach" and "Tonight's The Night", commercial disasters , but artistic genius and underground classics. He followed this up with "Rust Never Sleeps" which was "grunge before grunge." What is disturbing is that the vast majority of our society considers Lady Gaga an "artist." She is a mercenary. She will do whatever it takes to get herself noticed, a costume made of meat, walk around semi-nude, paint a bullseye on her forehead...whatever. It is sad that people can't see bald faced phonies for what they are. She is using the media to market her music, because it cannot stand on it's own merit...because it has none.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE] All excellent points.  Definitely should be part of the "selling out" thread as what you are saying here is the essence of selling out. 

    Right on the money.  :D
     
  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    To yoga's point, I overheard an older gentleman say how much he liked the recent televised concert by lady gaga.

    I know this guy.  He is 80 years old, knows very little about musical trends much less music of the past 40 or so years, and is getting his kicks watching a scantily-clad 20-something singer (who is not devoid of talent).

    It's a Vegas show; an updated version of the old school song-and-dance 'burlesque'.  It's not new or particularly innovative, but it sells, and it sells big.  But that doesn't make it any less of an artform.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    In Response to Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR):
    [QUOTE]To yoga's point, I overheard an older gentleman say how much he liked the recent televised concert by lady gaga. I know this guy.  He is 80 years old, knows very little about musical trends much less music of the past 40 or so years, and is getting his kicks watching a scantily-clad 20-something singer (who is not devoid of talent). It's a Vegas show; an updated version of the old school song-and-dance 'burlesque'.  It's not new or particularly innovative, but it sells, and it sells big.  But that doesn't make it any less of an artform.
    Posted by MattyScornD[/QUOTE]So you think the taste of some old guy is a benchmark?  Okay.  Can't compare myself to an 80-year old man, and I won't try.  My father used to come home from his fitness club laughing at how he could talk to all the cute, pretty young girls b/c they knew he wasn't hitting on them (he wasn't) and watch how they rebuffed the handsome hot guys their own age.   They wanted to work out, not get hit on, and avoided the younger guys like the plague.  My Dad even met a woman I used to work with (it came out in the conversation b/c he asked her where she worked, and then asked her, "do you know my daugher yogafriend?!"   -- she thought my Dad was the dearest, sweetest man.  He thought she was beautiful.  Smile
    But you're right, it is a Vegas show, without the camp, without the humor, without the rest of the dancing girls ... so is it really?    Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. 

    So I want to listen to music, and would prefer to listen to and look at Eddie Vedder, you know?  That's not a benchmark either, just my girl taste. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from AGUY1. Show AGUY1's posts

    Re: Sex, Drugs and RnR (but without the drugs and RnR)

    Image has always been a part of being signed and promoted.  Perhaps there was a time where they overlooked the looks of a performer over talent but that was probably less than half the time and the percentage only gets smaller.  I often have thought that if the records companies signed artist strictly by talent the industry would be better for it but they don't go that way.

    Don't you think that Lennon's and McCartney's looks played a part in being signed?  Not that I'm one of those, but I've heard many of times how attractive they were to girls.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share