The 5 greatest bands of all?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    Led Zep gets low marks for originality.



    My response to that is, yes, they plagiarized the old blues artists in a reprehensible fashion on their first two albums.  But after that they were very creative.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    Led Zep gets low marks for originality.

     



    My response to that is, yes, they plagiarized the old blues artists in a reprehensible fashion on their first two albums.  But after that they were very creative.

     

     




    They plagiarized more than just old blues artists, as if it is even ok to do that. And they took writing credits for songs they didn't write. The Beatles covered songs and credited the original songwriter. Plus, Zep's plagiarized songs were not even improvements on the originals. I would much rather listen to the originals. The scope of their plagiarism is so great that any claims of originality don't hold much weight for me.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    As little as I know here about Led Zeppelin's legacy of plagiarism (but I do know something about it, in all due humility), it's also a legacy of doing what no American band(s) had done, and that is to bring to light and put the blues into rock music.  From what I have read, the British bands were the first to do this (Rolling Stones, too), and to me, that's to their credit. The British bands saw something in the what the American blues artists had done, and recognized not only how hot it was, but how to transition it to rock music.   That's a first, no matter how you look at it.  

    I don't blame anyone for continuing to hold the lack of giving credit where it was due back then, but on the flip side, one can give Led Zeppelin the benefit of the doubt that they really didn't see what they were doing as plagiarism at the time, anyhow.   Young, inexperienced ... I don't know.  Not a good case, I realize, and no excuse, perhaps.   I am not aware, admittedly, of the scope or the depth of the plagiarism, other than it was at the onset of their career.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    Now here's a great topic.

    The issue of plagiarism of music is a valid one. (I'm not talking in terms of "intellectual property" which is a bit of an artificial construct to me when it comes to music.)

    But I think there are limits to the degree in which art can be "borrowed" until it becomes something wholly new even if it's derivative.  I think there's a reason why some music exists in the public domain, while others do not, and it's mainly a matter of lawyers' fees.  For example, the fact that "Happy Birthday To You" is subject to copyright protection is ludicrous.

    When it's based upon traditional music, particularly american folk music, I think it's hard to argue plagiarism unless lyrics are used verbatim.  With rock music, it would seem to be a matter of chord changes and the number of bars.  (A real musician can clarify this for me.)

    Yes, Led Zeppelin borrowed heavily and even stole a song or two.  But in nearly all cases, they utterly transformed it into something different and new and, most of the time, took it even further.  Nobody "invented" hard rock, but Zep certainly laid a few templates for how to do it and do it well.

    It would be one thing if they did not pay due homage to their influences.  They did, and they brought it alive for generations of kids (fans) to hear and appreciate.  And it's a measure of greatness.  And on one level, they were following another 'borrower': Elvis.

     

     

     

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    They plagiarized more than just old blues artists, as if it is even ok to do that. And they took writing credits for songs they didn't write. The Beatles covered songs and credited the original songwriter. Plus, Zep's plagiarized songs were not even improvements on the originals. I would much rather listen to the originals. The scope of their plagiarism is so great that any claims of originality don't hold much weight for me. 



    OK now I have to ask if you can be more specific about which Zeppelin songs and which other artists you mean.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    On the positive side, a good case can be made for The Beatles other than "duh, they're The Beatles."

    They were very creative when it came to both melody and harmony. Their skills in these areas probably account for a lot of their broad popularity. Yes, even kids parents could be caught humming a Beatles tune, and that's a good thing. Melody and harmony are very good hooks to get you into a song.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    They plagiarized more than just old blues artists, as if it is even ok to do that. And they took writing credits for songs they didn't write. The Beatles covered songs and credited the original songwriter. Plus, Zep's plagiarized songs were not even improvements on the originals. I would much rather listen to the originals. The scope of their plagiarism is so great that any claims of originality don't hold much weight for me. 

     



    OK now I have to ask if you can be more specific about which Zeppelin songs and which other artists you mean.

     



    Click on this link.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M&list=PL5F8571D0DD735D7E

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    When it comes to music I think easing of censorship has gone too far.



    I wholeheartedly and thoroughly disagree. Nevermind that America can't censor speech like that.

     

    What would you have them do? Not sell to certain ages? They'll get the CDs one way or another, and if anything, it will have the opposite effect than intended. Just as with the silly "parental advisory" stickers.

    Besides...     these kids can use any number of electronic devices to find porn. I fail to see how a few nono words matters.

    I should have been more specific.  What I mean is censorship of what is allowed to be played on the radio.  I'm just hearing more and more offensive stuff on the radio all the time and I'm exposed to it because my daughter and her friends listen to it.  I'm not sure what the answer is but I do understand the reaction of rage that Roger Taylor described.  Maybe it's the parents like me and Roger whose mental health is affected by listening to this stuff.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    Now here's a great topic.

    The issue of plagiarism of music is a valid one. (I'm not talking in terms of "intellectual property" which is a bit of an artificial construct to me when it comes to music.)

    But I think there are limits to the degree in which art can be "borrowed" until it becomes something wholly new even if it's derivative.  I think there's a reason why some music exists in the public domain, while others do not, and it's mainly a matter of lawyers' fees.  For example, the fact that "Happy Birthday To You" is subject to copyright protection is ludicrous.

    When it's based upon traditional music, particularly american folk music, I think it's hard to argue plagiarism unless lyrics are used verbatim.  With rock music, it would seem to be a matter of chord changes and the number of bars.  (A real musician can clarify this for me.)

    Yes, Led Zeppelin borrowed heavily and even stole a song or two.  But in nearly all cases, they utterly transformed it into something different and new and, most of the time, took it even further.  Nobody "invented" hard rock, but Zep certainly laid a few templates for how to do it and do it well.

    It would be one thing if they did not pay due homage to their influences.  They did, and they brought it alive for generations of kids (fans) to hear and appreciate.  And it's a measure of greatness.  And on one level, they were following another 'borrower': Elvis.

     

     

     

     




    Elvis did not take songwriting credits. We always knew who wrote his songs. He was a cover artist and did not pretend otherwise.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    To me the plagiarism is not widespread, it is not pervasive in their music.  It was limited to a relatively small group of songs on their first two albums.  They went on to write dozens and dozens of other original songs which were totally unlike those early songs. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    Now here's a great topic.

    The issue of plagiarism of music is a valid one. (I'm not talking in terms of "intellectual property" which is a bit of an artificial construct to me when it comes to music.)

    But I think there are limits to the degree in which art can be "borrowed" until it becomes something wholly new even if it's derivative.  I think there's a reason why some music exists in the public domain, while others do not, and it's mainly a matter of lawyers' fees.  For example, the fact that "Happy Birthday To You" is subject to copyright protection is ludicrous.

    When it's based upon traditional music, particularly american folk music, I think it's hard to argue plagiarism unless lyrics are used verbatim.  With rock music, it would seem to be a matter of chord changes and the number of bars.  (A real musician can clarify this for me.)

    Yes, Led Zeppelin borrowed heavily and even stole a song or two.  But in nearly all cases, they utterly transformed it into something different and new and, most of the time, took it even further.  Nobody "invented" hard rock, but Zep certainly laid a few templates for how to do it and do it well.

    It would be one thing if they did not pay due homage to their influences.  They did, and they brought it alive for generations of kids (fans) to hear and appreciate.  And it's a measure of greatness.  And on one level, they were following another 'borrower': Elvis.

     

     

     

     

     




     

    Elvis did not take songwriting credits. We always knew who wrote his songs. He was a cover artist and did not pretend otherwise.



    I believe that's incorrect.  I've read that Elvis did indeed take partial credit for some songs he did not write.

    Whether this was more of a strong-arm management deal or not, I'm not sure.

     

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    To me the plagiarism is not widespread, it is not pervasive in their music.  It was limited to a relatively small group of songs on their first two albums.  They went on to write dozens and dozens of other original songs which were totally unlike those early songs. 




    Watch all the videos. Their plagiarism extends beyond their first two albums.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to SlimPickensIII's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    Elvis did not take songwriting credits. We always knew who wrote his songs. He was a cover artist and did not pretend otherwise.



    Au contraire.  He didn't do any writing, but his name is on a bunch of his songs.  The heavy handed Colonel and his colleagues usually twisted arms to get the songwriter to go along.  Those Guralnick books went into this in detail.  My favorite story involved Jerry Reed.  First they couldn't get the sound on 'Guitar Man',  so they finally brought Jerry himself in.  And he nailed of course,  then they brought up the credit thing. Jerry was some kind of ticked and refused, one of the few who did. He already had a hit on the song himself, but even if he hadn't, he had his principles.

     


    Elvis himself was never directly involved in any of this,  and he's been quoted many times saying he never wrote anything of his own.  It was all on his handlers.  Which doesn't let the King off the hook.  If you do read those books,  the second is about the fall,  you won't like Elvis much by the end.



    By the same token, guys like Alan Freed and Russ Fratto got songwriting credits when neither one wrote a note. In general, Elvis was not seen as a songwriter.

    I read the books, but don't recall the details. Elvis may be unlikeable at the end, but it is because of how he treated the people closest to him. Fame and drugs ruined him.

    Jerry Reed may be one the greatest entertainers who never really garnered the praise and adulation he deserved.

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Hey now, I rather like some of the Zepp covers just as much as the originals. They're different enough that they don't truly sound like covers.


    For the same reasons I appreciate both Willie Dixon's "little red rooster" "back door man" and The Doors' versions (in fact they covered a ton of Dixon).

     

    Of course, Morrison gave me a chuckle when I noticed that their version of "Back Door Man" typically gave the song a controversial (for the time) sexual overtone, by omitting the line about slipping out the back door when the husband comes in the front. Rather changes the meaning a tad....

     

    Odd Zepp didn't give credit. They use the same damn title on most of them, as I have seen while going through my recently acquired blues arsenal....



    The Doors porperly credited Willie Dixon. I've got no problem with that.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to SlimPickensIII's comment:

    Zeppelin's biggest crime in my book was not giving Bert Jansch credit for 'Black Mountain Side'.  Technically I guess you can't credit an arrangement, and Bert's was an arrangement based on an old tune, but still,  they couldn't find room in the liner notes at least? 

    The arrangement of 'House of the Rising Sun' another old tune in the PD?  The Animals stole it from Dylan who stole it from Dave Van Ronk.  Poor Dave never made a penny from it, but the arrangement makes the whole tune.

    They all did it back then.  The Stone's claimed Robert Johnson's 'Love in Vain' as their own.  Not cool.  



    Jansch did not take credit for the song itself. Why should anyone take credit? It was a traditional tune in the public domain, but Zep didn't even admit to that.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    Another great thing about the Beatles. They took 50's rock as a foundation and kicked it up a notch sonically. Two of their earliest singles are great examples of this. "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold Your Hand". Two great shots of sonic excitement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFuZjUugpzg

     

     

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    Another great thing about the Beatles. They took 50's rock as a foundation and kicked it up a notch sonically. Two of their earliest singles are great examples of this. "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold Your Hand". Two great shots of sonic excitement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFuZjUugpzg

     

     



    With the invaluable help of George Martin, of course.

    I'm not saying Martin deserves songwriting credit.  He was the arranger/producer, first and foremost.  But The Beatles had a stroke of luck in finding a skilled, sympathetic ear in Martin at the switch.

    Talented? No question. Fortunate? Yup.

    By the same token, Jimmy Page was already an accomplished arranger/producer before Led Zep's first album.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    I tend to be against censorship in virtually all forms, even if it's not true censorship but more in the form of "well we won't let that word get said before 10 pm." I think it's harmful overall, and always utterly ineffective.

    I mean..have you seen much European public tv? Yowsers. And they aren't all a bunch of crazed sex freaks when they grow up. Well, you've got the Germans. But apart from them....

    Yeah, what the heck.  Come to think of it, people should just be able to have sex right on their front lawns.  Kids are going to see it on the porn channels or internet anyway.  Not much difference between those graphic images and the real thing.

    (That was just me playing devil's advocate...and I don't mean devildavid's.)

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

     

    Another great thing about the Beatles. They took 50's rock as a foundation and kicked it up a notch sonically. Two of their earliest singles are great examples of this. "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold Your Hand". Two great shots of sonic excitement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0YifXhm-Zc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFuZjUugpzg

     

     

     



    With the invaluable help of George Martin, of course.

     

    I'm not saying Martin deserves songwriting credit.  He was the arranger/producer, first and foremost.  But The Beatles had a stroke of luck in finding a skilled, sympathetic ear in Martin at the switch.

    Talented? No question. Fortunate? Yup.

    By the same token, Jimmy Page was already an accomplished arranger/producer before Led Zep's first album.

     



    I judge bands by the music they create. Page being an arranger/producer looks good on his resume but it doesn't mean he created anything as original as the Beatles did.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    Depends on criteria.  Is it based on Concert Performances, recordings, or both?  And should version of the band be used?  Does longevity play into it?

    Led Zep has a benefit of quitting when they were on top.  They didn't water down their brand by coasting on reputation.  Without the Beatles, you don't have the Stone or Led Zep, but the Beatles weren't that great in Concert.  And Jefferson Airplane basically put American Rock and Roll on the map.

    Pink Floyd is number 5 for me.  It was a hard one.  I initially left them off, but put them back on after rethinking it.  On the one hand, listening to them today, it's hard to see how cutting edge they were because a lot of bands have surpassed them (Radiohead).  But putting my head back in time, then they belong.  However, there's the whole Wall thing.  Yeah it was cool when I was in high school, but it sounds like a bunch of hooey now.  Yes, it has some great songs, but I can't really listen to it anymore.  It wasn't really ground breaking because The Who had already done it twice with Tommy and Quad.

    I added the Grateful Dead as the #6 band, but it's the versions of the Dead from the 60s through the early 80s.  I also added Pearl Jam because I think they've consistently been the best band in the World for the past 20 years.

    I pull pay lots and lots of money to go to a festival of those 7 bands playing at the height of their careers.  I would pay even more money for a back stage pass that gave me access to everywhere. 

     

    Stones

    Beatles

    Led Zep

    Jefferson Airplane

    Pink Floyd

    Grateful Dead

    Pearl Jam

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The 5 greatest bands of all?

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    I judge bands by the music they create. Page being an arranger/producer looks good on his resume but it doesn't mean he created anything as original as the Beatles did.



    I wouldn't compare Page as a writer to the Beatles.  But to say that Page and Zeppelin weren't creative in the area of blues-rock and hard rock, you might as well say there's nothing creative in those genres, period.

     

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