The Foundation of Rock and RnR

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Newman started a great thread on the 6 God's and it brought up some interesting choices and how it is viewed.

    So let's try this. What artists and bands are the reason that this artform we call Rock and Roll has existed for 60 years which is about 50 years longer than what was originally believed. I am not going to put a number of artists to list, but I am going to ask for a one or two word justification. Now I know we all feel that our favorites are also the greatest, but I kindly request that you all be as objective as possible. The list does not have to be by importance (1 - 10). Just who belongs in the foundation. Since we all know that the Blues artists were the beginning, there is no need to list them. All hail, Muddy, John Lee, Howlin Wolf, Robert Johnson, etc. I am also refraining from listing Ray Charles and all the Jazz greats. We know there influence as well.

    Beatles - (Changed the way popular music was looked at and then changed it again)
    Elvis - (Put a white face to everything)
    Dylan - (Folk, Politics, thought process - lyrics)
    Buddy Holly (Creativity in the early days - self contained artist, RnR genius))
    Chuck Berry (Johnny B. Goode - R & B to RnR)
    Bo Didley (The Bo Didley Beat)
    Lil Ritchie (Major influence on the Brit Invasion)
    Beach Boys (Brian Wilson and harmonies)
    Rolling Stones (Sex)
    The Who (Teen Angst)
    The Kinks (Brit Pop)
    Jimi Hendrix (Virtuocity that was never heard before)
    Yardbirds (R&B cranked to 11 - Clapton, Beck, Page)
    Cream (Total Musicianship -The Blues cranked to 11))
    Neil Young (Master of everything)
    The Byrds (Great students of both Dylan and the Beatles)
    The Stooges (Hardcore revolt)
    Velvet Underground (Art & the club scene)
    Alice Cooper Band (Shock & Metal)
    Led Zeppelin (The Hybrid of everything that came before)
    Black Sabbath (Evil - Metal)
    King Crimson (Prog Rock)
    Pink Floyd (joining of Prog Rock and Art rock)
    David Bowie (Singer, songwriter, illusionist - The Spaceman)
    T-Rex (Glam)
    Queen (Completely different)
    Aerosmith (Rough sex - R&B cranked to 20) [70's version]
    Deep Purple (Artrock meets Metal and the dawning of a new era)
    NY Dolls (The godparents of punk, glam and Hair metal)
    Ramones (American Punk)
    The Clash (Brit Punk)
    Joy Division (Punk meets electronics and created a New Order)
    Motorhead (Punk and Metal have a baby and it is speed)
    Bruce Springsteen (I hate him, but he is Middle America out of Jersey)
    Elton John (the Brit Piano Man)
    Billy Joel (The American Piano Man)
    Runaways and Suzi Quatro (Chicks can do there own thing)
    Motown (Temps, Supremes, Marvin Gaye, etc.- A true face to the music - cool)
    Nirvana (only because they are the face of grunge - not because I think they are more important than Pearl Jam, AIC or Soundgarden
    AC/DC - (Balls to the wall 3 chord hard rock boogie)

    Judas Priest (The first All or nothing Metal band)
    KISS (Live Performances only)

    [Musically, I don't believe Kiss or Priest belong, but what they did for their genres forces the door open for them]

    My last is a toss-up between Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez and Judy Collins. Not really sure which but this needs to be part of the foundation.

    I have left off extremely important bands like the ELP, Yes, Doors, Joplin, Rush, Guns and Roses, Cheap Trick, Metallica, Stone Roses, Oasis, Def Leppard, Pixies, Sonic Youth, Tom Watts, Radiohead etc. To me, they are the next tier.

    Aerosmith - G&R
    Motorhead and Black Sabbath - Metallica
    King Crimson - ELP and Yes

    Anyway - that is how my mind works.

    Feel free to either take my list and edit (add- subtract), create a new one or whatever else you may or may not want to do. Or even call me an idiot.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ForumCleaner. Show ForumCleaner's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Most musical styles are fusions of many forms. So I think you can trace lines going much further back than that. For example, heavy metal, is largely a fusion of rock/blues bands like Led Zep with baroque and classical.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]Most musical styles are fusions of many forms. So I think you can trace lines going much further back than that. For example, heavy metal, is largely a fusion of rock/blues bands like Led Zep with baroque and classical.
    Posted by ForumCleaner[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely right - somethng begat something else. But as a whole artform, I believe these bands are the cement of the foundation.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from uclid. Show uclid's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Tough to answer this one. So many musicians are influenced from people before them. I’m sure some kid somewhere listened to the Back Street Boys or Hanson and said to themselves, that’s what I want to do. I’m sure Stephen Forster influenced somebody. Some relative of the Gyco caveman who was banging rocks together influenced someone too.

    Anyway who belongs in the foundation? I have to say everyone. Sort of like a “rock and roll stew”

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mattyhorn. Show Mattyhorn's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    I think we would have to include the respective studio greats of Stax and Motown (and before them doo-wop), plus James Brown, because although their influence is more prevalent in RnB, Dance, Pop and Hip-Hop, there is little doubt as to their contributions to both music and culture.  And in many cases, music is irretrievably tied to culture.

    Ditto for certain elements of country music, rockabilly and bluegrass.


    When I think strictly about styles of popular music absent of strict genres (which is probably way too often) and what might attract my ear, I tend to divide them into the following buckets with plenty of room for over-flow:


    Blues-, Jazz-, Folk-, Country- and Soul-

    I believe most, if not all, popular music can lay credit to one or more of these veins.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Which is why I am trying to keep it somewhat contained. There is no doubt regarding the overspill - James Brown, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams, etc. And yes, they are part of the fabric of it all.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from KathyVT. Show KathyVT's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    I can't add anyone else to this list of rock musician pioneers. It seems to have started in America, but if not for Britain and the British invasion, I don't think music would be what it has been.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mattyhorn. Show Mattyhorn's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Fair enough, Jess.

    In that case, I'll add Jerry Lee Lewis and The Animals (carried over from the other thread) to the list along with James Brown.

    JB practically birthed the entire funk genre.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR



    It's a huge topic, but your list is certainly all-encompassing.

    Maybe we need a thread to recognize women, that would be an interesting discussion. 

    I don't see how we could come up with a list, unless, as Mattyhorn mentions, we go across blues, country, R&B, folk, and rock, b/c some of the most prominent women singer / songwriters have come out of many genres.  Joni Mitchell is probably recognized as one of the major song writers of the 20th century, period, but she's not rock, she's folk.   And even though she was born prior to 1950 by a long shot, I don't see how you could leave Billie Holiday off of your list.  She was still performing in the 1950's.  So maybe we should discuss a list of chicks and see how differently we'd see the list.    What do you think?

    mmm... editing my post here, b/c I think what the division really seems to be is bands vs. solo artists.   Do (some) women rockers or singer/songwriters start out in bands, THEN go solo (ala Diana Ross), or are women more prominently placed in the solo artist category?  Anyhow, just seems as though a list would have to have a different basis and discussed on another level.  Make sense?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from schmangell. Show schmangell's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Nice expansion of the theme jerseyeric.  I think it had to be done and you've come up with a terrific list, although I would include Rush in the upper echelon.  Two words: power trio.

    Clockwork Angels will be released next spring, and the buzz is that it ranks among Rush's best work.  The advance single, "Caravan," is certainly a nice tease.

    The only addition to eric's list I would make is Eddie Cochran, a great songwriter and innovative guitarist, who certainly influenced both Hendrix and Townshend (Summertime Blues, anyone?). 

    The family tree of rock and roll would dwarf a redwood.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mattyhorn. Show Mattyhorn's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]It's a huge topic, but your list is certainly all-encompassing. Maybe we need a thread to recognize women, that would be an interesting discussion.  I don't see how we could come up with a list, unless, as Mattyhorn mentions, we go across blues, country, R&B, folk, and rock, b/c some of the most prominent women singer / songwriters have come out of many genres.  Joni Mitchell is probably recognized as one of the major song writers of the 20th century, period, but she's not rock, she's folk.   And even though she was born prior to 1950 by a long shot, I don't see how you could leave Billie Holiday off of your list.  She was still performing in the 1950's.  So maybe we should discuss a list of chicks and see how differently we'd see the list.    What do you think?
    Posted by yogafriend[/QUOTE]


    Sounds like a great topic (Nina Simone, anyone?).

    Please consider yourself nominated....
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    WOW! That's some foundation jessey!

    Sounds like the basement level and floors 1 through 5.

    I feel the"foundation" was laid before the Beatles and Stones picked up their instruments. (Well , you don't "pick up" a piano or a drum kit, but you know what I mean).

    As far as the "foundation" , I would say it was laid by Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard , Fats Domino, Carl Perkins , Jerry Lee Lewis and Buddy Holly.

    I think the Beatles framed and shingled the house and the Stones furnished it (carpeting, drapes , tables, sofas , etc.). Then the Who , Cream and Hendrix brough the whole place to life ( electricians?)

    The Doors added dimmer switches, the Kinks likely did the plumbing.

    I don't see where the Runaways ( although nice to look at) did a whole lot of anything to "build" Rock music, the Go-Go's (Belinda Carlisle- just great!) and the Bangles were the first real all girl band with any real merit musically. But not part of a "foundation" at all.

    In a relative aspect , I would say the girl groups are only the flower arrangement on the kitchen table....until you get to Pat Benatar, who puts the hard edge and bite ( perhaps the razor blades in the bathroom?)
    in the house.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR : Sounds like a great topic (Nina Simone, anyone?). Please consider yourself nominated....
    Posted by Mattyhorn[/QUOTE]
    My pleasure.

    Let me think about it.  It will be fun to see the collective wisdom of the forum on this topic.   I think it has merit b/c it requires a very different POV.  Let me be clear: I'm in sync with the idea that the foundation of rock and the majority of the bands who were leading edge were men.   Just don't think we can discount the contributions of what women have brought to the "table" ...

    speaking of tables ...

    (See Zilla's post) ...  in the meantime, all the girl bands are categorized as "flower arrangements on the kitchen table" --!  That line was worth the price of admission today!  Too funny! Smile   We await the rest of your thoughts on the topic in an upcoming thread! 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Yoga - I do believe you need to add a female voice to this discussion, especially when it comes to female rockers and not just their influence on the music but on the gender itself. RnR has been such a c*ckrock thing for so long and even all these years latter and the ladies are still somewhat pushed to the side.

    Zilla - here is why the Runaways and Suzi distance themselves from the GoGo's and Bangles. Those two bands don't exist if it weren't for the Runaways. And aside from the novelty b.s that were the Runaways major obstacle, one must also deal with the abuse they had to deal with from mgmt (Kim Fowley) and how that led to their break-up. And when you consider the music put forth by Joan and Lita a half dozen years later, then you have to see what amazing potential was actually there if they had the proper backing. Suzi and the girls were really the first ones who decided to play RnR on a man's venue. They broke down that door. As for Pat Benetar, great front woman with a beautiful instrument (voice). The same for Anne and Nancy Wilson, but the fact remains that unlike Lita, Joan, Cherie, Jackie and Sandy, they had men standing and posing behind them.

    I did enjoy the way you clarified everything else. You would make a very good architect.

    So it seems that many feel that we need to add a few of the earlier pioneers into the list and I am good with that. For me personally, after Buddy, Lil Ritchie, Elvis and Chuck Berry, the rest are lagging way behind. Although I did like the mentioning of Eddie Cochrane.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Kathy & Yoga,

    It is about time you both joined us here.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ForumCleaner. Show ForumCleaner's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In the end it all goes back to Monteverdi.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    jessey, I don't agree that the Go Go's and Bangles "do not exist" if not for the Runaways.

    Does Walmart "not exist" if there was no Woolworth's?

    Does the hot dog " not exist" without the sausage?

    Does the chicken not exist without the egg?? ( oh, forget that one, it doesn't really fit here)....wrong forum.

    Does Derek Jeter exist without Gene Michael?

    Does George Carlin exist without Lenny Bruce?

    Who's to say Belinda Carlisle and the gals of the Go Go's don't pick up guitars and play rock'n roll without an earlier model? Who's to say George Carlin doen't become a great comedian with no Lenny Bruce? Maybe he figures it out his own.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]jessey, I don't agree that the Go Go's and Bangles "do not exist" if not for the Runaways. Does Walmart "not exist" if there was no Woolworth's? Does the hot dog " not exist" without the sausage? Does the chicken not exist without the egg?? ( oh, forget that one, it doesn't really fit here)....wrong forum. Does Derek Jeter exist without Gene Michael? Does George Carlin exist without Lenny Bruce? Who's to say Belinda Carlisle and the gals of the Go Go's don't pick up guitars and play rock'n roll without an earlier model? Who's to say George Carlin doen't become a great comedian with no Lenny Bruce? Maybe he figures it out his own.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Yes, this echoes my own opinion.  I think there's too much of a tendency to trace backwards to roots as though it's all part of some great family tree. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    But the Runaways were actually very good. I saw them live and they could rock with any of the boys.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]But the Runaways were actually very good. I saw them live and they could rock with any of the boys.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    You're just a s*cker for sexy chicks and you know it.

    Can't fault you for that one. So I'll give this one to you on the basis that I have nothing constructive left to say on this subject. Also I happen to like Joan Jett's solo stuff and she definatley "does not exist" without the Runaways.

    Even though I have gained support from the wise oracle , Hfsoxnut ,of whom I am becoming a big fan. Thanks!

    That's two arguments I've let you win, now. This one and the Cheap Trick incident.

    But , I won't back down on the Johnny Rotten as a God of Rock thing.

    You can stand me up at the gates of hell and I won't back down....remember Tom Petty said that. Great line.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]Since we all know that the Blues artists were the beginning, there is no need to list them. All hail, Muddy, John Lee, Howlin Wolf, Robert Johnson, etc. I am also refraining from listing Ray Charles and all the Jazz greats. We know there influence as well.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE] But what about country jessey? I'm down with you on the blues, but the music that changed the world was a fusion of blues and country. For instance, Bill Monroe and Patsy Cline (Willie Nelson) belong on your list imho. Hank Williams too. How many rock and roll bands have covered Hank tunes?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to The Foundation of Rock and RnR : But what about country jessey? I'm down with you on the blues, but the music that changed the world was a fusion of blues and country. For instance, Bill Monroe and Patsy Cline (Willie Nelson) belong on your list imho. Hank Williams too. How many rock and roll bands have covered Hank tunes?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Same thought process. it is part of the RnR DNA
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR : Same thought process. it is part of the RnR DNA
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    True that. Blues brought the rock, but country is what made it roll.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    In Response to Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR:
    [QUOTE]As far as the "foundation" , I would say it was laid by Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard , Fats Domino, Carl Perkins , Jerry Lee Lewis and Buddy Holly.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]That's a good foundation Zilla. I'd add Bill Monroe, TBone Walker and McKinley Morganfield to your list as I believe those were the guys The Man from East St Louis  fused together to create his sound.Maybe Hank too, I definitely hear some Hank in Chuck's songwriting style. (C'est La Vie)
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: The Foundation of Rock and RnR

    Even though they were kind of square, I think we should also give credit to Bill Haley & His Comets as a catalyst in the birth of Rock.
     
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