Housebreaking Question

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Stephgf. Show Stephgf's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Two things about this dog. She is very smart--she knows that she gets a treat when she goes outside, so half the time I have to feel the ground to make sure that it is wet and not that she is just fakin' it. Also, when she is boarded, she never goes in their house, so I know that she can hold it.  She just chooses not to in our house, and mostly because I think that she thinks that we are telling her that she can by putting down the paper.  We have been afraid to take it away for fear that she will find another spot or another rug, but I guess we should.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Kar's right on track with figuring out your dog's signal that they're about to have an accident. For Max it was sneaking away. He usually wants to always be where the people are, so if he goes off for no apparent reason, I learned it meant he was sneaking off to go pee somewhere.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]Two things about this dog. She is very smart--she knows that she gets a treat when she goes outside, so half the time I have to feel the ground to make sure that it is wet and not that she is just fakin' it. Also, when she is boarded, she never goes in their house, so I know that she can hold it.  She just chooses not to in our house, and mostly because I think that she thinks that we are telling her that she can by putting down the paper.  We have been afraid to take it away for fear that she will find another spot or another rug, but I guess we should.
    Posted by Stephgf[/QUOTE]

    Another suggestion is to correct her for peeing where she isn't supposed to.  When she pees in the house, show it to her and give her a correction just like you would correct any other behavior.  Some even suggest putting her nose near it with a stern, "NO".  As long as you are rewarding the desired behavior, correcting her is OK.

    This isn't any different than correcting a dog for getting up from a sit position without permission or from the down position. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Even if she goes somewhere along the way on the walk (which is good, of course, like Pinkie said), I'd say if it's more than 20 - 30 minutes before you get home she'll be able (if not dying) to go again before you walk in the door.  Of course, the closer you are to home when she goes the more time you have before she'll need to go again after you get home so my advice is to try to get her to go directly before you come inside (we trained our pup to go when we tell her "Go pee!").

    I keep track of the last time my puppy goes #1 and #2.  I know, for instance, last #1 was 1:30 and last #2 was at 2:30.  So, next #1 can be held until 5:30 at max (helpful to know if she's in her crate for a nap), and #2 can be held until she eats her dinner at around 7:00.

    The first month we had her, I kept a notebook of her eating and bathroom habits.  Once I learned her patterns it was a lot easier to predict.  And, as she got older (and her bladder bigger) I learned to add time to when she'd have to go #1 again.

    This allows us to be inside pet friendly stores, in our house, etc., with my not having to wonder how close she is to having an accident.  Although, she's getting better at signaling, too, so that's good.
     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    We adopted a rescue dog who lived in the woods in Tennessee before she was taken in and sent to Boston for placement. For the first few months we had her, she had no accident, but then my mother got sick and I was away from home on and off for about  a month.  She loves my husband, but I am her person.  Now we give her a treat when she goes outside, but she also goes inside on a daily basis.  I am afraid we are confusing her too as we do put down wee wee pads, but since her spot in our oriental rug in the front hall, we felt we had no choice. I should also add that the dog we had before her had bladder cancer, and even though that rug has been cleaned multiple times, she still may notice a subtle odor that we did not.  One more thing, she can go for a walk outside, and then come in and go to her pads fifteen minutes later.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Management of this (proaction, not reaction) is your best bet.  You are waiting until she goes in the house and reacting instead of predicting when she'll need to go and proactively taking her out until she does. 

    Proaction takes more thought and planning, but it's better than reacting to another accident every day.  So, to become proactive about it, I highly recommend keeping a food/pee/p00 journal for awhile so you can predict almost exactly when she'll be likely to have to go.  Then, at those times, take her out and give her the command of your choice ("Do your business," "Go pee/p00", etc.) until she does.  Then praise her as you already do with that treat saying "Good business" or "Good pee/p00" (whatever command you chose).

    I did this for a month with our puppy while we were housebreaking her, and I consulted the journal all the time.  I was hardly ever caught off guard that way.

    Now that she's 90% there, I actually just keep track of the last time she went #1 and #2 and had a big meal.  I can predict fairly accurrately from that at this point.

    The other thing you can do to become proactive is to watch her subtle signs.  If she knows she shouldn't go in the house she must exhibit some sign that something is about to go wrong.  A sudden disinterest in you, a disappearing act, a grabbing of a forbidden object (shoe?), etc.  What does your dog do to signal an accident is about to happen?  Watch for it and grab her before it can happen.  Give her the command...you know the drill.

    You can take charge of this, but it will take more planning and effort than just letting her go and cleaning it up because that doesn't change her behavior, as you've feared it won't.

    P.S.  If she only has "accidents" at your house, they are not accidents.  Investigate why she might be acting out.  These are certainly NOT accusations, but mere questions of what could be bothering your dog.

    Is she not getting enough "good" attention?  (So she's seeking bad attention by going in the house.) 

    Is she hungry or thirsty?  (Are you restricting her water to make her pee less?)  Our dog has a fit when she's thirsty - we had to put a water dish in her crate so she'd stay in there all night, ironically.  And, we hear her take a big drink around 2 am every single night!  How she holds it 'til 6:30, I have no idea - 10 hours is a long time for a puppy.

    Does she have a place to call her own in your house? (Crates provide safe havens of peace for your dog.  Is she missing a den?)
     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]You have some common problems that are fixable. Remove the rug.  Sorry.  Gotta go.  Get a new one from Buidling 19 - they have decent orientals for cheap. Stop using the wee wee pads. About the walk and then inside peeing.  All dogs do this if you bring them right inside after exercise without making sure they go right before you bring them in.  Walking makes them have to go.  So, you start giving the dog the wee wee command before you come in and do NOT come inside until she's done her thing.  It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes since it takes that long for her to go inside after her walk, now.  And, once she learns the routine, she'll pee right before she comes in after every walk.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    You have some common problems that are fixable.

    Remove the rug.  Sorry.  Gotta go.  Get a new one from Buidling 19 - they have decent orientals for cheap.

    Stop using the wee wee pads.

    About the walk and then inside peeing.  All dogs do this if you bring them right inside after exercise without making sure they go right before you bring them in.  Walking makes them have to go.  So, you start giving the dog the wee wee command before you come in and do NOT come inside until she's done her thing.  It shouldn't take more than 15 minutes since it takes that long for her to go inside after her walk, now.  And, once she learns the routine, she'll pee right before she comes in after every walk.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    corn meal is usually used in combination with corn gluten in pet foods, because it's cheap filler. Iams has been known to test on puppies and kittens to see how much filler they can use before it makes the dog or cat malnutritioned.

    A raw diet is ideal, but too expensive and time-consuming to up-keep for me. The nice thing about natural and hollistic brands foods, is that they offer a reasonable alternative to a raw diet. Evo even says right on the bag "raw diet alternative". On special occasions he gets turkey or fish in brown rice with sweet potato.

    If you thinly slice sweet potato and bake them in the oven at 450 til crispy, it makes a great dog treat.

    It's worthwhile to read the ingredients list on the side of any food item, for pets or otherwise.

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question : Corn Gluten, rather than whole corn, is commonly found in pet food.  Corn Gluten is the by-product of removing the sugars from corn (used to create corn syrup).  They add the gluten because it increases the protein content of the food.  The problem is, the dog cannot break down the protein from corn.  I'm not sure if the corn products by themselves contribute to obesity in dogs because dog food that contains corn products are usually bad in other ways. The bottom line that is that feeding your dog a good quality dog food is the best way to go.  Corn and wheat can be used to identify pet foods that are poor in quality. Probably the best way to go is to find a couple of different brands of dog food, and mix them.  A pet is best served by a diet that has a variety of ingredients.  Red Meat has things in it that chicken or fish do not and vice versa.  I primarily feed my dogs raw food from 2 different producers.  One is beef the other is duck.  I also use dry food as training treats which accounts for about 1/2 of my dogs' diet.  I combine dry dog food from several different brands (Innova, Wellness, Evo, as many others) and from several different main ingredients: Red meat, chicken, fish, lamb, etc.  For additional fiber, I add a dollop of canned pumpkin to their raw food.  I add in a little olive oil for their coats and their evening meal gets a teaspoon of the supplement, "Missing Link". For puppies, a dollop of cottage cheese increases the calcium content of their food.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    I agree with Kar, either the rug has to go, or you need to restrict her from the area where it is by means of a gate or a kennel.

    If she's going inside right after you walk her, then make her walks longer, and make sure you go on both grass, dirt and pavement so she has every opportunity to go where she's most comfortable (but not inside).
    If she starts to go inside, bring her right outside.
    As kar said,w hen she pees outside, praise her and associate a word with it "good, tinkle!" or "good, wee!" and give her an extra special treat she only gets when she pees outside.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    DW's suggestion worked for us.  However, we were careful to only scold her AS she was doing it and we were forcing her outside to finish.  Often she would stop mid-stream because of the scolding so I'm sure it helped in the overall success rate. 

    If you find the pee later and put her face up to it and say "NO" she won't get the connection between the correction and the act of peeing inside.  She'll believe you are telling her that the pee itself is bad...definitely not what you are going for.  (I know this isn't what DW was suggesting, but it could be inferred accidently, I think.)

    ~kar
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    I agree.

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]DW's suggestion worked for us.  However, we were careful to only scold her AS she was doing it and we were forcing her outside to finish.  Often she would stop mid-stream because of the scolding so I'm sure it helped in the overall success rate.  If you find the pee later and put her face up to it and say "NO" she won't get the connection between the correction and the act of peeing inside.  She'll believe you are telling her that the pee itself is bad...definitely not what you are going for.  (I know this isn't what DW was suggesting, but it could be inferred accidently, I think.) ~kar
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]DW's suggestion worked for us.  However, we were careful to only scold her AS she was doing it and we were forcing her outside to finish.  Often she would stop mid-stream because of the scolding so I'm sure it helped in the overall success rate.  If you find the pee later and put her face up to it and say "NO" she won't get the connection between the correction and the act of peeing inside.  She'll believe you are telling her that the pee itself is bad...definitely not what you are going for.  (I know this isn't what DW was suggesting, but it could be inferred accidently, I think.) ~kar
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    I don't  think you need to catch them in the act to correct them when they pee as long as you are treating them/praising them when they pee in the desired location.  If all you are doing is scolding them when you find that they've pee in the wrong spot, then I agree, it's only teaching them that pee is bad.  But rewarding them for the correct behavior teaches them the pee is OK in the right place.  You are balancing the correction with praise.

    This is kind of tied to the concept that by rubbing a dog's nose in his feces (it's amazing what BDC won't allow in the post), he might eventually start eating it in order to hide it from you.  Which I believe is true, unless you reward for the correct behavior (not that I advocate putting a dogs nose in feces).  He goes to the bathroom in the house - he gets corrected.  he goes to the bathroomm outside, he gets praise and a treat.

    There are 2 schools of thought when it comes to training dogs.  One school of thought only goes with "positive reinforcement".  The other school of thought will use "negative reinforcement that is balanced with positive reinforcement".  Personally, I think you should go 100% positive if it works for the dog.  But sometimes some dogs need to be corrected. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    You guys should use whatever method you feel comfortable using when housebreaking.  I'm just saying that limiting scolding to when they get caught in the act is not necessary if you also praise the desired behavior.

    This is a huge debate in the dog training world and caused a certifying organization to split.  I'm not trying to convince anyone which is the best method, but simply stating that there are 2 different schools of thought on this.

    If you scold only when they get caught, they may learn to hide the behavior.  They'll still go potty in the house, but they'll just make sure that they do it when you aren't looking.  You are in effect teaching them that it's bad to pee in the house when you can see them.  But if they hide, if they go into an empty room, then they can pee without negative consequences.

    If you only correct when you catch them in the act, they'll learn to hide the act. 

    You can always limit scolding to when you catch them in the act and praise when they go outside.  If that works, then great.  But if they start peeing in the house when no one is looking, then add showing them the deed and scolding.  Some dogs learn quicker than others.

    I've got 2 dogs - same age, same breed, same gender, same breeder, gotten at the same time.  One was easily house broken.  Just used the scolding in the act and praise outside.  Now, when he has to pee, he walks to the back door and barks once.  The other dog was harder to house train.  He doesn't want to go outside.  He'd prefer to go into an empty room to take care of business.  The second one has been much harder to train in everything.  The first dog is much more obedient (which is odd because he's more dominant).  With the second dog, I've had to show him the deed and scold as well as praise the desired behavior.

    But again, the second dog is much more headstrong than the first.  He's much more subtle, and he's much more persistent in trying to do what he wants to do.

    Just like when putting them in a sit.  One dog sits very quickly.  The other dog doesn't.  As a result, the second dog gets a bit of a correction when he doesn't quickly go into a sit as well as praise when he gets into the sit.  And if he sits quickly, he gets tons of praise.

    Different dogs, different training techniques.  Believe me, I wish the second dog was as easy to train as the first.  But then again, I wish the first dog didn't get so excited all the time and was more relaxed like the second dog.

    One organization would like to make it a black and white issue and but the other doesn't see it that way.  If you only correct, then you are 100% accurate that showing and scolding after the fact is wrong.  But if you praise the desired behavior as well as scold after the fact, then it is OK.

    I was confused the first time that I had seen a trainer scold after the fact.  I talked with her about it and raised the same issues you guys are raising.  She said what I've related about "scolding only" is bad, but using a combination of correcting and praising is OK.  I only know what worked and didn't work for my guys.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    From the web:
    "Another extremely common mistake is for owners to punish a dog for eliminating in the house when they have not actually caught the dog in the act. If the owner finds a mess on the floor and goes to find the dog and scold it, the dog will believe it is being punished for whatever it was doing when the owner found it. Dogs are totally incapable of associating the punishment with their earlier actions, even if their owner drags them to the mess and points it out to them. Punishing a dog when it cannot understand what the punishment is for only makes it confused and upset, possibly creating entirely new behavioral problems.

    One traditional method of punishment - rubbing the dog's nose in its own mess - is particularly counter-productive. As noted above, dogs and wolves have a natural urge to defecate where the rest of their pack does. They locate the spot by scent; this is why dogs will generally spend some time sniffing the ground before they relieve themselves. Thus, rubbing the dog's nose in its urine or feces actually reinforces to the dog that it should continue eliminating in that particular spot."

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Presenting it's accident to the dog after the fact will only confuse it. You can only correct behavior, not something that happened in the past. Unlike correcting a dog with a shoe or something it's chewed up, which will make the dog avoid that object, showing the dog where it peed and telling it "no" is confusing. How is the dog supposed to know what you're saying is bad? Is smelling the pee bad? Is the carpet bad? Is the pee itself bad? Is peeing bad? Is it bad that it was in that spot, but other spots are okay?
    in fact, by rubbing a dog's nose in it's accident and sayin "no", you are in fact correcting an action you're forcing. The dog only learns that it shouldn't rub it's face in it's accident, but at the same time, you're making it do just that.

    Dogs live in the now. You must correct or praise behavior while it's happening, not after the fact. They can only understand cause and effect, not effect and then further effects.
    You correct a dog when it jumps up, you wait and then point to the paw prints on your coat and scold. They won't understand. It's not like showing a toddler where they drew on the wall and scolding.

    If you rub a dog's nose in it's accident, it will just learn to hide it from you.

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question : I don't  think you need to catch them in the act to correct them when they pee as long as you are treating them/praising them when they pee in the desired location.  If all you are doing is scolding them when you find that they've pee in the wrong spot, then I agree, it's only teaching them that pee is bad.  But rewarding them for the correct behavior teaches them the pee is OK in the right place.  You are balancing the correction with praise. This is kind of tied to the concept that by rubbing a dog's nose in his feces (it's amazing what BDC won't allow in the post), he might eventually start eating it in order to hide it from you.  Which I believe is true, unless you reward for the correct behavior (not that I advocate putting a dogs nose in feces).  He goes to the bathroom in the house - he gets corrected.  he goes to the bathroomm outside, he gets praise and a treat. There are 2 schools of thought when it comes to training dogs.  One school of thought only goes with "positive reinforcement".  The other school of thought will use "negative reinforcement that is balanced with positive reinforcement".  Personally, I think you should go 100% positive if it works for the dog.  But sometimes some dogs need to be corrected. 
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    when you correct the dog in the act, you correct them by saying "no, outside!" and then bring them directly outside. When they finish outside, you praise them.
    The correcting cannot be purely verbal, it needs to be physical. Just as you'd physically put a dog into the sit position if it failed to sit, you physically bring the dog outside of it fails to do so before releiving itself. The dog learns the act itself is fine, it's just the location that needs to change.
    Dogs cannot understand the abstract concept of "this is your pee, and I'm unhappy that you peed here earlier instead of going outside."
    It's much easier to understand "No, don't pee inside, here, I'll bring you outside. Now it's good that you're peeing."

    Forcibly rubbing a dog's face into it's accident is just plain cruel. Do you rub a child's face into their accident while they're potty training? No! Because it's just plain cruel to do so.

    It's far more effective to crate a dog than to rub it's nose in it. If a dog pees in its crate, it has to sit in it. That's not enjoyable. Just as a child has to sit in wet pants if they have an accident until someone can get them a clean pair. They learn "if I don't hold it, I have to sit in it." You crate them while you cannot keep an eye on them. When you can keep an eye on them, you watch for signs that they have to relieve themselves, then bring them outside.
    As I said, my dog used to try and sneak off to go pee. But, by keeping him crated unless I could keep an eye on him, sneaking off was no longer an option, and his housebreaking went rather smoothly after that.
    Keeping him to a strict schedule also gives him the confidence of knowing when he'll be going outside, so he knows how long he has to hold it for. Dogs thrive on routine, and they're good at altering their own behavior to fit a routine.

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]You guys should use whatever method you feel comfortable using when housebreaking.  I'm just saying that limiting scolding to when they get caught in the act is not necessary if you also praise the desired behavior. This is a huge debate in the dog training world and caused a certifying organization to split.  I'm not trying to convince anyone which is the best method, but simply stating that there are 2 different schools of thought on this. If you scold only when they get caught, they may learn to hide the behavior.  They'll still go potty in the house, but they'll just make sure that they do it when you aren't looking.  You are in effect teaching them that it's bad to pee in the house when you can see them.  But if they hide, if they go into an empty room, then they can pee without negative consequences. If you only correct when you catch them in the act, they'll learn to hide the act.  You can always limit scolding to when you catch them in the act and praise when they go outside.  If that works, then great.  But if they start peeing in the house when no one is looking, then add showing them the deed and scolding.  Some dogs learn quicker than others. I've got 2 dogs - same age, same breed, same gender, same breeder, gotten at the same time.  One was easily house broken.  Just used the scolding in the act and praise outside.  Now, when he has to pee, he walks to the back door and barks once.  The other dog was harder to house train.  He doesn't want to go outside.  He'd prefer to go into an empty room to take care of business.  The second one has been much harder to train in everything.  The first dog is much more obedient (which is odd because he's more dominant).  With the second dog, I've had to show him the deed and scold as well as praise the desired behavior. But again, the second dog is much more headstrong than the first.  He's much more subtle, and he's much more persistent in trying to do what he wants to do. Just like when putting them in a sit.  One dog sits very quickly.  The other dog doesn't.  As a result, the second dog gets a bit of a correction when he doesn't quickly go into a sit as well as praise when he gets into the sit.  And if he sits quickly, he gets tons of praise. Different dogs, different training techniques.  Believe me, I wish the second dog was as easy to train as the first.  But then again, I wish the first dog didn't get so excited all the time and was more relaxed like the second dog.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Definitely a two pronged effective approach - praise outside, correct/scold inside.  Just wanted to make sure it was clear that you have to scold while they're actually doing it so they know what they are getting scolded for.
     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    Yes, I couldn't be more sure about this, either, Pinkie.  Only correct the behavior at the time it's happening.  The world is so black and white to a dog, you can't do anything but that.

    I hope the rug and the pee pads are gone and that some proactive management of their problem is helping.  Would love to get an update.




     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]when you correct the dog in the act, you correct them by saying "no, outside!" and then bring them directly outside. When they finish outside, you praise them. The correcting cannot be purely verbal, it needs to be physical. Just as you'd physically put a dog into the sit position if it failed to sit, you physically bring the dog outside of it fails to do so before releiving itself. The dog learns the act itself is fine, it's just the location that needs to change. Dogs cannot understand the abstract concept of "this is your pee, and I'm unhappy that you peed here earlier instead of going outside." It's much easier to understand "No, don't pee inside, here, I'll bring you outside. Now it's good that you're peeing." Forcibly rubbing a dog's face into it's accident is just plain cruel. Do you rub a child's face into their accident while they're potty training? No! Because it's just plain cruel to do so. It's far more effective to crate a dog than to rub it's nose in it. If a dog pees in its crate, it has to sit in it. That's not enjoyable. Just as a child has to sit in wet pants if they have an accident until someone can get them a clean pair. They learn "if I don't hold it, I have to sit in it." You crate them while you cannot keep an eye on them. When you can keep an eye on them, you watch for signs that they have to relieve themselves, then bring them outside. In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    I never said that you rub their noses in it.  There's a big difference between showing them the mess and rubbing their noses in it.  I understand crate training.  I am only stating that correcting them after the fact as long as you praise the desired behavior is not as damaging as some would have you think.  If all you do is let the puppy roam around unsupervised and only correct him after the fact, then I agree with you that it is wrong. 

    I think that when a puppy in in the process of being house trained, it should be either in the crate or tethered to you.  And if someone does that, then there should never be any incidents of having to correct after the fact. 

    But, in the those rare occassions when the puppy does go potty out of eye sight, then I think it is OK to correct as long as you praise/treat the desired behavior.

    It's OK if you don't agree.  I know more than a few trainers that do agree but I also know more than a few trainers that disagree.  Personally, I think the appropriate method should be based on the individual dog. 

     
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    Re: Housebreaking Question

    I had no idea it was a professionally debated issue! 

    Well, I guess I'll leave it at "our" method worked for our puppy.  Thankfully, since that's all I knew to do at the time.  She's working on signaling, now, but definitely tries to avoid accidents. 

    One thing I don't understand, though.  She sleeps consistantly in her crate overnight from 8 pm to 6:30 am.  A LONG time for a 4 month old puppy, and she does it entirely on her own.  She set her bedtime and even goes in there to go to bed for the night many times without any coaxing.  And, we hear her awake at 6:00 chewing her toy (it squeaks), and at about 6:30 she gives a little "come get me" whimper which I respond to right away.  She MUST have to go to the bathroom, and I know she feels it.  She always goes #1 and #2 upon getting up.  However, the question is then, why does she run in our bedroom to say "Good morning" to my DH first?  I have to grab her and put her outside every morning at which time she pees and pees and pees.  Then, she tries to come in without going #2 first, which I don't allow because I KNOW SHE HAS TO GO which she always does if I bump her toward the stairs and tell her if she goes p00 she can come in.  Then, I always take her back inside to see DH so she knows that's coming...

    What gives?  Why, if she's essentially potty trained, does she ignore having to go really, really, really bad in the morning in favor of DH's attention?  I know they have a special bond, but really???  I'm sure if she played with him first she'd NOT be able to hold it, and she should know that, too, I'd think at this point.

    Thoughts?  I know this was long...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    The only thing that showing them the mess and scolding them acheives is that it gives the owner the satisfaction of blowing off their frustration.
    That's all it does. You tell yourself that it makes the dog know it made you unhappy, and that makes you feel good. All the dogs knows is that you're mad about it, and it doesn't know why. The correction is ineffective if there is no redirection.
    Redirection, like when you catch a dog chewing on a shoe, you say "no, shoe" and then give it something it something it can chew on and say "good, bone" or whatnot.
    That's why the correction during the act is effective, you immediately redirect that action outside.


    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question : I never said that you rub their noses in it.  There's a big difference between showing them the mess and rubbing their noses in it.  I understand crate training.  I am only stating that correcting them after the fact as long as you praise the desired behavior is not as damaging as some would have you think.  If all you do is let the puppy roam around unsupervised and only correct him after the fact, then I agree with you that it is wrong.  I think that when a puppy in in the process of being house trained, it should be either in the crate or tethered to you.  And if someone does that, then there should never be any incidents of having to correct after the fact.  But, in the those rare occassions when the puppy does go potty out of eye sight, then I think it is OK to correct as long as you praise/treat the desired behavior. It's OK if you don't agree.  I know more than a few trainers that do agree but I also know more than a few trainers that disagree.  Personally, I think the appropriate method should be based on the individual dog. 
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]because she knows you're going to give her attention, because you always walk her and feed her every morning. She feels that she has to work for his attention, because she doesn't always get it right away every morning. If I leave Max at home longer than usual because I've gone out for a drink after work, when I get home and bring him outside, he couldn't care less about peeing. He just wants me to pet him. It takes him a few mintues to settle down and go pee, and then I give him all the attention he wants. Affection is a big deal to them, which is why most trainers will tell you to only give them affection after they do what you need them to do. Excitement is a powerfult hing, especially to a puppy. In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    Very interesting.  I figured when she was about to explode that it might rate a little higher, but I guess not.  Strange animals, these dogs!

    By the way, I just bought some Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy.  She loves it.  Now, what to do with 30 lbs of Puppy Chow.  Sigh.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    because she knows you're going to give her attention, because you always walk her and feed her every morning. She feels that she has to work for his attention, because she doesn't always get it right away every morning.
    If I leave Max at home longer than usual because I've gone out for a drink after work, when I get home and bring him outside, he couldn't care less about peeing. He just wants me to pet him. It takes him a few mintues to settle down and go pee, and then I give him all the attention he wants. Affection is a big deal to them, which is why most trainers will tell you to only give them affection after they do what you need them to do. Excitement is a powerfult hing, especially to a puppy.

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]I had no idea it was a professionally debated issue!  Well, I guess I'll leave it at "our" method worked for our puppy.  Thankfully, since that's all I knew to do at the time.  She's working on signaling, now, but definitely tries to avoid accidents.  One thing I don't understand, though.  She sleeps consistantly in her crate overnight from 8 pm to 6:30 am.  A LONG time for a 4 month old puppy, and she does it entirely on her own.  She set her bedtime and even goes in there to go to bed for the night many times without any coaxing.  And, we hear her awake at 6:00 chewing her toy (it squeaks), and at about 6:30 she gives a little "come get me" whimper which I respond to right away.  She MUST have to go to the bathroom, and I know she feels it.  She always goes #1 and #2 upon getting up.  However, the question is then, why does she run in our bedroom to say "Good morning" to my DH first?  I have to grab her and put her outside every morning at which time she pees and pees and pees.  Then, she tries to come in without going #2 first, which I don't allow because I KNOW SHE HAS TO GO which she always does if I bump her toward the stairs and tell her if she goes p00 she can come in.  Then, I always take her back inside to see DH so she knows that's coming... What gives?  Why, if she's essentially potty trained, does she ignore having to go really, really, really bad in the morning in favor of DH's attention?  I know they have a special bond, but really???  I'm sure if she played with him first she'd NOT be able to hold it, and she should know that, too, I'd think at this point. Thoughts?  I know this was long...
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Housebreaking Question

    In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question:
    [QUOTE]I'm not the one trying ineffectively to teach a dog an abstract concept and expecting results. I was able to housebreak my dog with little trouble without using the cockamamie "rub their nose in it" method. It's just not necessary, I've never known a dog trained that way and they were all still housebroken. So why use an ineffective, confusing punishment when you can acheive the same results without it? Admit it, you do it because you're mad there's pee on the carpet and want to take it out on the dog. That's all. You're the one who needs professional help. I'm the one who's able to train my dog without arbitrary and unecessary punishments. In Response to Re: Housebreaking Question :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    I'm serious.  You need professional help.   Your postings are more than a little disturbing.  Not only in this thread, but others as well.  Seriously, get some help.  Even your name seems a little disturbed.
     

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