1. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    I'm about to order an invisible fence for our 5 month old lab.  She's about 55 lbs.  It has 3 settings and claims to be OK for a very small dog on the lowest setting.

    Of course, the pros are obvious.  We will be able to let her run and play free of a tether!  No worries about her wandering off and getting hit by a car, stolen, eaten in the woods by a bear, or even in the neighbor's backyard.  The garden will be Gracie-free, too, keeping her clean and our peppers in tact.

    But, we're worried we're being cruel and that she might be afraid to go outside after the first zap.

    Does anyone have experience with this? 

    TIA!!

    ~kar
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    Dogs can also get used to the jolt and become desensitized. That's what happened with my aunt's dog. After a while, it was like the jolt wasn't even there.

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    One downside is that dogs can get out if they're motivated enough, especially when they get bigger -- and, since they know what's going to happen when they go back through, they won't. They'll stay outside the confines of it and wander as they please. A former co-worker has a pair of labs who escape their invisible fence often enough that it's a huge problem. The dogs wanted to get down to the lake nearby and were willing to put up with the pain to get there. It kept them contained when they were puppies, but was less effective as they got older. Bigger dogs can take more pain.
    Posted by Ariel81916

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukes58. Show lukes58's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    put up a real fence or just spend the time with her outside and proper training that she won't run off -- an invisible fence is cruel -- she will try to get out at one point or another and get zapped -- would you do that to your kid.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    OK, sounds good, friends.  Thanks for the input. I'm going for it, and hopefully, she'll stay contained.  She's not a tiny puppy, now, so maybe we won't have the problem of her growing out of it.  At least I don't have to worry about damaging her psyche.  :)
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tgihal. Show tgihal's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    we just installed one for our 3 month old puppy, and i ahd the very same concerns you expressed, and it was the best thing we could do, she learned after the second little jolt, with no crying or injury
    i cant recommend it highly enough
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ariel81916. Show Ariel81916's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    One downside is that dogs can get out if they're motivated enough, especially when they get bigger -- and, since they know what's going to happen when they go back through, they won't. They'll stay outside the confines of it and wander as they please.

    A former co-worker has a pair of labs who escape their invisible fence often enough that it's a huge problem. The dogs wanted to get down to the lake nearby and were willing to put up with the pain to get there. It kept them contained when they were puppies, but was less effective as they got older. Bigger dogs can take more pain.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    I knew someone who had an ivisible fence for their sheltie and it seemed just fine. It really depends on the dog. Max would be terrified, he's very sensitive and if something hurts him once he's not likely to ever do it again. But my aunt had a german shepard that would blow through the invisible fence all the time, so she ended up having to put up a real one.
    Maybe talk to your trainer or vet and see if they recommend a certain brand or somthing.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from easydoesit2. Show easydoesit2's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    clc, what a great idea!  I can have our trainer come to the house; she does do that, I know.  Sunshine's warning, though, was exactly what I'd feared.  Gracie was barking in her sleep last night, and I actually got up, opened her crate, and pet her 'til she quieted down. I can't hurt her on purpose.  But, there are so many more positive than negative stories, and I couldn't live with her wandering off and getting lost in the woods.  A solid fence is out of the question.  Much too large an area to enclose. 
    Posted by kargiver


    Well, if you think protecting a large area with an invisible fence is going to be cheap, think again.  Why not just put up a pen?  Every army in the world keeps dogs; happy, healthy, and well exercised - using pens.  Your place can't be bigger than an army base.  I used an indoor invisible fence, the Zone, to keep my dog off the rugs.  Cost me like 80 bucks. Gave her such a shock she yelped like she had been stabbed. I threw it away. There are other ways.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    Heather, good info about the size of the collar.  Gracie's neck is growing faster than her legs!  We did just have to replace her regular collar for the second time.  Thanks for that input, especially.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from clc51510. Show clc51510's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    My parents have an electric fence for their dog, a beagle, and it works great.  There are definitely times when she will bolt through it (i.e. when she thinks the neighbor's cat is within reach) but most often she enjoys her time outside. 

    I think the most important thing is to work hard on the training with the fence. If you do a good job training Gracie she shouldn't have a problem.  I know that you have personal training sessions for her, maybe you could center a few around working with the fence.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukes58. Show lukes58's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    hey, you asked for an opinion -- i gave you one -- sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear -- i think they are cruel -- one of the words you used in your original question -- don't ask the question if you don't really want the answer
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from sunshinemrs. Show sunshinemrs's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    I wouldn't put it as rudely as some of the other posters but I really don't like invisible fences and I would vote for a regular fence.

    We had a lab and an invisible fence and he was terrified of the borders of the yard - so much so that you couldn't get him to cross back into the yard.  The only way to get him in and out was through the garage door.

    Also, long story on the logistics of this happening, but I was shocked in the arm by the invisible fence collar and it HURT! I just couldn't do this to a dog, especially in the neck. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    that's victoria stilwell. At least spell the poor woman's name right if you're going to trumpet her methods.

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    baby boy's don't feel circumcision either - what a crock -- whether its a dog or a kid, its a living breathing thing and you are intentially risking causing it pretty good pain -- watch victor snelgrove on animal planet - its me or the dog -- she'll tell you the same thing -- she'll also have you put the collar on and walk through the fence to get the real feel of it -- responsible pet owners don't need to zap their animals to get them to behave, stay, whatever -- and turning up the heat so to speak when the dog gets use to the original zap setting - wowee i'm sure glad i'm not your dog.
    Posted by lukes58

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    I wouldn't put it as rudely as some of the other posters but I really don't like invisible fences and I would vote for a regular fence. We had a lab and an invisible fence and he was terrified of the borders of the yard - so much so that you couldn't get him to cross back into the yard.  The only way to get him in and out was through the garage door. Also, long story on the logistics of this happening, but I was shocked in the arm by the invisible fence collar and it HURT! I just couldn't do this to a dog, especially in the neck. 
    Posted by sunshinemrs


    Sunshine - this is constructive.  Thanks, personal bad experiences is exactly what I was looking for in the "cons" side.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    Hm. 

    No, lukes, I wouldn't do this to a child, but she's a dog, and from other posters' comments it seems that they don't mind it that much especially if they learn to tolerate it to the point that it no longer contains them or never even does to begin with.  The area would be HUGE - way bigger than we would build a physical fence for (and it would extend into the woods, much to Gracie's glee).  As for whether I'd do it to a kid, of course not!  But, of course, I wouldn't put my child in a crate, either.  Gracie loves her crate and goes into hers every night on her own when she's ready for bed and whines for me to come shut the door.  If I were to do that to a child I'd be locked up myself and for good reason.

    So, now, instead of worrying it will be torture for her, I'm worried she's headstrong enough to just not care and bound through it.  I guess if that happens we can just send it back.

    Thanks, again, all.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukes58. Show lukes58's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    baby boy's don't feel circumcision either - what a crock -- whether its a dog or a kid, its a living breathing thing and you are intentially risking causing it pretty good pain -- watch victor snelgrove on animal planet - its me or the dog -- she'll tell you the same thing -- she'll also have you put the collar on and walk through the fence to get the real feel of it -- responsible pet owners don't need to zap their animals to get them to behave, stay, whatever -- and turning up the heat so to speak when the dog gets use to the original zap setting - wowee i'm sure glad i'm not your dog.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    clc, what a great idea!  I can have our trainer come to the house; she does do that, I know. 

    Sunshine's warning, though, was exactly what I'd feared.  Gracie was barking in her sleep last night, and I actually got up, opened her crate, and pet her 'til she quieted down. I can't hurt her on purpose.  But, there are so many more positive than negative stories, and I couldn't live with her wandering off and getting lost in the woods.  A solid fence is out of the question.  Much too large an area to enclose. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukes58. Show lukes58's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    that's right - sorry snelgrove is the chick who was killed by a boston cop during a red sox victory celebration -- shoot me for making a mistake -- still think the invisible fence is cruel and wrong
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    Yeah, she looks abused, doesn't she...



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    hey, you asked for an opinion -- i gave you one -- sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear -- i think they are cruel -- one of the words you used in your original question -- don't ask the question if you don't really want the answer
    Posted by lukes58


    True, but after so many people said they work and their dogs learned without adverse effects I figured it was fine.  It seems you have no experience with it personally like the others do.

    And, the passive aggressive "sorry" isn't necessary.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    the fence in my mother's back yard was 8ft tall, and as I said, it didn't stop the raccoons.

    The trick to avoid attracting wild animals is to not have food or water outside. No bird baths, no bird feeders, locked trash recepticles, no pet food, and no vegetables in the garden.

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    i wasn't suggesting it would make it more likely -- just saying that if you leave your dog outside alone in a yard with an invisible fence, the fence doesn't prevent wild animals from getting in -- whereas a tall 'real fence' would
    Posted by lukes58

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from heatherv1211. Show heatherv1211's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    I say put the collar on yourself and tell us what you think.
    Posted by calmdown


    Actually, that is what most people do before deciding whether or not to go with the fence.  Most invisible fence instructions even tell you to do this. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from heatherv1211. Show heatherv1211's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    I guess there are people who get a kick out of doing these things to animals like Michael Vick.
    Posted by calmdown


    You're right - Michael Vick IS an animal.  But he certainly deserves a lot more than a couple of mild electric shocks.  I'd like to give him the whole chair.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from lukes58. Show lukes58's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    i think the size of the dog doesn't matter - sure a raccoon may not kill a lab, but there is rabies to consider, bites from another animal, etc.  - also, there are coyotes and foxes all around where i live and i'm assuming if kar lives near the woods, they are around her too -- they aren't scared off by a lab especially if pups are involved -- i didn't even think about the fact that other animals could get into the invisible fence as opposed to the pet getting out of it

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???

    In Response to Re: Invisible fence - will it be traumatic and cruel???:
    I know lukes isn't being argumentative for argument's sake, and I appreciate her concern.  Her idealogical distaste for the fence is her right, it just isn't that helpful in making my decision because it's not based on her experience. I'd never leave Gracie alone.  If I were going to leave the house I'd put her in her dog shed that has a crate and doggie door to a chain link kennel so she can stretch and go to the bathroom in a protected environment.  ...when it's finished.  In the meantime, she has to go in her crate inside while I'm gone.  She's quite comfortable in there...I've spied on her. :) The fence would be just for when I'm home and only during the day.  I just don't want to tie her up when I'm home because, yes, wild animals can and do go through our back yard.  Mostly at night, though. Thanks, again, everyone.  I'm still not quite sure what we're gonna do...
    Posted by kargiver


    I think a lot of it depends on the quality of the collar and the sensitivity of the dog.  If I had a dog that was afraid of it's own shadow, then I wouldn't use it.  But for the average non-terrier, the invisible fence should be OK.  I think the invisible fence would be more effective if used with a younger dog.  The bad experience of trying to go through the fence may be more easily imprinted on a young with the dog eventually unable to remember why it shouldn't leave the yard, just that it shouldn't.

    You could always teach the dog that it is OK to leave the yard when it is on leash by first walking past the invisible fence with the fence turned off and the dog on leash.  Turn the fence on, remove the leash and allow the dog to learn it can't go past the invisible fence without a leash.  I think it will be important to walk the dog on leash past the boundary first.

    I know you have a lab, but I would never trust an invisible fence on a terrier or a hound.  The prey instinct is too strong in those dogs.  They'd be more likely to put up with the jolt to go after a squirrel of follow the scent of a raccon.

    I have ecollars for my dogs, although not for invisible fences.  Different collars are better than others for a couple of different reasons.  Collars with variable settings are the best.  I think collars that use regular batteries tend to give off a more consistent jolt than collars with rechargeable batteries.  When I use a rechargeable collar, I always test it on my hand before putting it on the dog.  Sometimes a level 2 is perfect, but other times level 2 is real weak.  I haven't been able to figure the cause of the variation, but I always test the rechargeable collars on my hand.

    If you get a collar with a rechargeable battery, make sure that you can replace the battery.  Rechargeable batteries will eventually go bad.  If you can't replace the battery, you'll have to toss the collar and get a brand new one - and they are not cheap.  If you get a rechargeable collar, you might want to consider getting 2 collars, allowing you to have one on the charger at all times.

    And as far as cruelty goes, my dog gets very excited when he sees me grab the ecollar because he knows that it means a walk - I have a terrier with a very strong prey instinct.  When he sees a squirrel, he goes ballistic.  And if I'm not careful, he'll bolt after a squirrel potentiall pulling the leash out of my hand.  I use the ecollar to teach him that trying to go after squirrels when he is on leash, is not acceptable.  It's been an effective training method.  I had tried one of those Gentle Leads - it's a collar that loops over his nose so that when he pulls, it pulls his head down.  Whenever he saw me grab it, he would run from me.  But when he sees the ecollar, he gets excited. When I start to put the ecollar on him, he stands with his neck extended to make it easier for me.  The point being, he is not afraid of the e-collar.

    I would talk to my trainer about the best way to introduce the collar.  The last thing you want to do is make your dog afraid to go outside and a good trainer should be able to tell you the best approach to use.

    Gun Dog Supply is good online source for e-collars.  They have a wide range of products and are honest (IMHO) in their assessments.  They have a wider range of options than Petco or PetSmart.

     
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