Books

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    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : You make such an assumption about just one element of my dating practices, kar. ~sigh~ And I don't do it "after every date." One even lasted a decent amount of time - until I found out he was a commitment-phobe. I liked him, and he was a tiger in bed.
    Posted by reindeergirl[/QUOTE]

    I assumed because you said that is your absolute modus operandi.  Good for you for not having a hard and fast rule like it sounded as if you did.  Flexibility, in life and in bed, is a good thing. ;)

     
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    "What is essential is invisible to the eye."
     
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    RT, in my view, you would have had every right to feel like cheating. Maybe not by law, but by your needs and desires as a man. It's a testament to your good character that you didn't. Or at least to your fortitude regarding the law (since I don't know why you stayed chaste through it all). Although my husband was out of the house for some time before I filed for divorce, I didn't sleep with anyone until I filed. I didn't feel it was right, even though he was the one who left (and abandoned his child for two years, until divorce forced the issue).

    He wouldn't have cared if I dated/slept around or not, but he hired one of the best divorce attorneys in Boston, and she came at me with issues I'd never considered (nor did my ex). Fortunately, my divorce attorney was more accomplished and got all the opposing attorney's motions thrown out. In any case, I felt that even though we were separated, it would still have been a form of adultery on my part to be with someone else until those papers were filed in Court.

    I thought that through the 1960s, NY had one of the toughest divorce laws in the country. I could be wrong.
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : There are always two sides to every issue.  What went wrong isn't nearly as important as what you learned from the experience.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    Learning can only begin once you accept "your" culpability in the failure of your marriage and divorce...I have


     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]RT, in my view, you would have had every right to feel like cheating. Maybe not by law, but by your needs and desires as a man. It's a testament to your good character that you didn't. Or at least to your fortitude regarding the law (since I don't know why you stayed chaste through it all). Although my husband was out of the house for some time before I filed for divorce, I didn't sleep with anyone until I filed. I didn't feel it was right, even though he was the one who left (and abandoned his child for two years, until divorce forced the issue). He wouldn't have cared if I dated/slept around or not, but he hired one of the best divorce attorneys in Boston, and she came at me with issues I'd never considered (nor did my ex). Fortunately, my divorce attorney was more accomplished and got all the opposing attorney's motions thrown out. In any case, I felt that even though we were separated, it would still have been a form of adultery on my part to be with someone else until those papers were filed in Court. I thought that through the 1960s, NY had one of the toughest divorce laws in the country. I could be wrong.
    Posted by reindeergirl[/QUOTE]

    Cheating is cheating, that's why one of my on line dating filters eliminates "separated" women. What the hell does that mean? Get a divorce FIRST then go on line!

    BTW, you know the relationship with a separated man or woman is doomed from the get go. There are a number of issues and emotions a person has to go through after a divorce before moving on - denial, fear, adaptation, loneliness, friendship, guilt/rejection, grief, anger, letting go, self-worth, transition, openness, love, trust, relatedness, sexuality, singleness, purpose and freedom. The learning process, IMHO, doesn't and can't begin until one excepts their culpability in the failure of their relationship that ended in divorce.
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : Try telling that to someone in the middle of a divorce :) Agree that you cannot begin to heal until you've acknowledged your own wrongdoing.  You can't change others.  You can only change yourself.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    That's why I got so much out of personal counseling the year after my divorce.  I needed someone impartial to help me figure out what I did wrong, sort it out, and, thereby, prevent it from happening again.

    I'm happily remarried (3 years next month), and I attribute it largely to figuring out what I did wrong the first time both in the very beginning of the relationship (when I should have ended it before it got very far) and after we were married.

     
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    Re: Books

    BTW, you know the relationship with a separated man or woman is doomed from the get go. There are a number of issues and emotions a person has to go through after a divorce before moving on - denial, fear, adaptation, loneliness, friendship, guilt/rejection, grief, anger, letting go, self-worth, transition, openness, love, trust, relatedness, sexuality, singleness, purpose and freedom. The learning process, IMHO, doesn't and can't begin until one excepts their culpability in the failure of their relationship that ended in divorce.

    In general I'd agree, but ... in my case we were separted for five (!) years before I filed. Neither of us had the funds and both of us were too cheap and he was too lazy to file. Then he dropped out of site for two years, and it took a private investigator to find him, so that we could address child matters. I went through all that you cited, above, by the time I filed. That was 10/94; by 3/05, I was divorced. But both of us had checked out years earlier. My culpability was in not seeing that I was marrying an alcoholic. What did I know about alcohol? Nothing. My friends were pot-heads. I rarely drank after being a wild child in college. As far I knew I didn't know any alcoholics. My culpability was also not leaving him the first time he threatened me. I didn't think I was the guilty one, but I thought his behavior was a one-off thing. Until it happened again. Yes, I was lonely in those years, but I had a solid group of friends and work and activities that consumed me. Plus, I was caring for a toddler, my priority.

    My Mum was sick in those years, and although she was in a really good nursing home, I was (and wanted to be) her primary family caregiver. Mum passed - I wasn't there in that moment, but until they took her body away, I curled up in her hospital bed with her, and sang her the lullabyes that she sang me.

    So, I was a busy little sandwich generationer. Raising my daughter; dealing with a troubled spouse; caring for my Mum. Plus working. I taught, and I had housemates to help with the bills. Good housemates, who stayed for years. They were responsible, quiet and studious (medical and nursing students, we lived near the Longwood medical area), and I liked them. One of the nursing students cared for me and the fawn when I had a flu that wouldn't quit for weeks.

    I was able to deal with the loneliness. I was not so able to cope with the fact that he didn't see her for two years, because he didn't want to deal with setting up visits, child support, etc. He was actually willing not to see his daughter, because of his logistical matters, like coming up with $100/week for our baby. (That was an informal child support arrangement; the Court knocked it down to $86/week. Then he fell behind for 19 months, until I threatened to return to Court, he hates Court so he quickly caught up, and to his credit, has been doing well on this since.)

    I've always been able to love and trust, always - maybe I'm a little too trusting, I always have been. Even through the long years of separation, I was able to love and trust. I am not only capable of giving love, but of receiving it, too. One might be surprised at how many people can't receive it but can give it.

    I respectfully disagree with youy about the separated part. Some people are quite ready to love again, in a healthy, holistic way, once they're separated. However, I don't find it useful if the separated couple is still living in the same home, even if it's for financial reasons in this crummy economy. Get a room in a rooming house, live with a friend on the friend's couch, but don't live with your spouse.                
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : Try telling that to someone in the middle of a divorce :) Agree that you cannot begin to heal until you've acknowledged your own wrongdoing.  You can't change others.  You can only change yourself.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    Changing onself? Yes. This is why I'll take the gaspipe before I ever get involved with another alcoholic.
     
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    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : That's why I got so much out of personal counseling the year after my divorce.  I needed someone impartial to help me figure out what I did wrong, sort it out, and, thereby, prevent it from happening again. I'm happily remarried (3 years next month), and I attribute it largely to figuring out what I did wrong the first time both in the very beginning of the relationship (when I should have ended it before it got very far) and after we were married.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    Kar, you got so much out of counseling because you invested in it and were a willing participant. 

    My ex and I went to marriage counseling and she took the passive approach.  She was waiting for the counselor to say..."Ok, Mr Taylor, based on our conversation here are "your" problems and if "you" fix them you can have a happy marriage! The counseling was doomed from the get go, both parties have to invest time and effort into it and put the lessons learned into practice.  Yet another reason I pulled the trigger on the divorce.  I knew I was in a no win situation and that I deserved better even if that means being alone. Laughing
     
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    My ex and I went to marriage counseling and she took the passive approach. She was waiting for the counselor to say..."Ok, Mr Taylor, based on our conversation here are "your" problems and if "you" fix them you can have a happy marriage! 
    ----

    The same with my ex. He wanted the counselor to list my faults, and my faults alone. He didn't return after the initial consult, but I did. To this day, I see a counselor to help ensure my next marriage is happy and healthy, to help guide me - although I admit, I am mainly focused on avoiding finding another substance abuser.

    To his credit, ex quit smoking almost 2 years ago, after more than 40 years of ciggies. The alcohol is a tough one for him. He doesn't even want to cut back.

    Well, I am off for another initial consult - this one about sleep apnea. Have a fine afternoon, everybody.
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : Kar, you got so much out of counseling because you invested in it and were a willing participant.  My ex and I went to marriage counseling and she took the passive approach.  She was waiting for the counselor to say..."Ok, Mr Taylor, based on our conversation here are "your" problems and if "you" fix them you can have a happy marriage! The counseling was doomed from the get go, both parties have to invest time and effort into it and put the lessons learned into practice.  Yet another reason I pulled the trigger on the divorce.  I knew I was in a no win situation and that I deserved better even if that means being alone.
    Posted by RogerTaylor[/QUOTE]

    I said I went to personal counseling after the divorce.  I knew better than to go to marital counseling.  You cannot counsel morality into someone so I didn't even suggest it.  He had lied (admittedly) about a foundational aspect of his life to trick me into marrying him.  It "worked," but it didn't work out.  Counseling wouldn't have made it work out.  

    I got personal counseling to fix myself; it had nothing to do with him.

    ETA:  rdg, gl with the appointment.  sleep apnea is difficult.

     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : I said I went to personal counseling after the divorce.  I knew better than to go to marital counseling.  You cannot counsel morality into someone so I didn't even suggest it.  He had lied (admittedly) about a foundational aspect of his life to trick me into marrying him.  It "worked," but it didn't work out.  Counseling wouldn't have made it work out.   I got personal counseling to fix myself; it had nothing to do with him. ETA:  rdg, gl with the appointment.  sleep apnea is difficult.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    Kar - "I said I went to personal counseling after the divorce". I understood that. My point is that you decided you needed to make that investment in understanding your culpability and to your credit put what you have learned into practice....hence, a 3 year anniversary next month! Congrats!

    I think there are a lot of "delusional" people out there that blame the ex without ever taking an introspective look at themselves - a post mortem if you will - after a divorce or breakup - IMHO

    So again, kudo's to you for figuring it out!
     
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    I figured you did, but I didn't want the idea that I chose to completely forgo marital counselign to get lost in the shuffle. :)  Thanks - kudos to you, too.  Wisdom is only aquired through severe adversity and then only if the things you talked about regarding culpability are in place post-adversity.  Otherwise, adversity makes you bitter, not wise.  And, you have become wise through yours.
     
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    Kar wrote: "Wisdom is only acquired through severe adversity and..."
     
    Yeah, and as a result of my adversity and learning I switched careers.....

    I now write country music songs!  Wink
     
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    In my case, it took counseling to help me see that it wasn't all me. 
    ----

    Me too, CHC. I thought I wasn'tr being a good enough wife (except for the sex part, which was clearly on him, because he was the one for whom whiskey made sex impossible).
     
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    Thanks kar. I'm just waiting around after describing all my symptoms. Still have to do the overnight. I hope, I hope they give me the cpap. No panacea, my sleep apnea friends say, but still, they say that with the cpap they wake up more refreshed than they've been in years.
     
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    I'm reading Bruce Weber's NYT series about his cross-country bike ride. I've never been to Montana, and he makes it sound lyric.

    RT - I'm writing lyrics to blues songs these days, and am looking for a musician to set them to music. Are you on FB?

     
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    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : In my case, it took counseling to help me see that it wasn't all me.  My 'one thing I'd never do again' is leap into an instant relationship.  Establishing good communication takes time and in the early stages of a relationship you need plenty of reflection time to be sure you can hear your gut.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    CHC it's never "all" one persons fault, it takes two to tango.

    Even if you never cheated and were the "perfect" wife but, your husband did cheat on you, you still have, all be it, a small part in the demise of that marriage. So, he's 99.9% to blame but, you have to suck up that remaining 01% of the blame! Please keep in mind that .01% could be something as simple as having chosen the wrong man to marry....

    Trust, communication, consideration and compromise make for a pretty good foundation in any relationship...I challenge anyone to remove one of these elements of any relationship and see what happens
     
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    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]I'm reading Bruce Weber's NYT series about his cross-country bike ride. I've never been to Montana, and he makes it sound lyric. RT - I'm writing lyrics to blues songs these days, and am looking for a musician to set them to music. Are you on FB?
    Posted by reindeergirl[/QUOTE]

    Hey RDG, that was just a stab at humor! I don't write country songs....lol Wink

    Hey RDG, do you know what happens when you play a country song backwards?????
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : Go back and read my comment again.  Never once did I say it was all my Ex's fault :) The big things I did wrong were not following through on promises I made to us (and to myself) and not setting good boundaries with my folks. What I couldn't see (without help) was that when I asked him to adapt over time, he dismissed my request.  The best example I can think of - he projected his emotions onto me.  He'd come home from work and say to me 'What went wrong today?'.  Initially I'd answer with a positive answer (I'm a glass is half full kind of gal), but he'd keep it up - suggesting more and more things I could possibly be unhappy about until I started finding things to be unhapy about just to please him.  When I pointed this behavior pattern out to him [a steady diet of complaining isn't good for ANYONE], he acknowledged it, but then sidestepped owning it by blaming his father (his excuse:  this is what my father always did).  When we were separated, that topic came up again and he finally (after YEARS) admitted that he was the one that was unhappy.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    "In my case, it took counseling to help me see that it wasn't all me."

    I understood it the first time I read it. My point is that it "never" could have been "all" you!

    It's impossible for all the blame - 100% - to fall on one persons shoulders.
    The person pointing the finger and blaming the other for the failed relationship 100% is doomed to a continued path of failure in all future relationships, IMHO.

    "If we fail to learn from our mistakes, we are condemned to repeat them!"
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Books : Try telling that to someone in the middle of a divorce :) Agree that you cannot begin to heal until you've acknowledged your own wrongdoing.  You can't change others.  You can only change yourself.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick[/QUOTE]

    As this thread is about books.  If I were to offer any advice to someone in the middle of a divorce, I would suggest they read this book:

    Rebuilding - When Your Relationship Ends 3rd Edition  by Dr Bruce Fisher, Dr Robert Alberti - ISBN-13: 978-1886230-69-9

    Great read....
     

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