Books

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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    In Response to Re: Books : You make such an assumption about just one element of my dating practices, kar. ~sigh~ And I don't do it "after every date." One even lasted a decent amount of time - until I found out he was a commitment-phobe. I liked him, and he was a tiger in bed.
    Posted by reindeergirl

    I assumed because you said that is your absolute modus operandi.  Good for you for not having a hard and fast rule like it sounded as if you did.  Flexibility, in life and in bed, is a good thing. ;)

     
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    Re: Books

    "What is essential is invisible to the eye."
     
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    Re: Books

    RT, in my view, you would have had every right to feel like cheating. Maybe not by law, but by your needs and desires as a man. It's a testament to your good character that you didn't. Or at least to your fortitude regarding the law (since I don't know why you stayed chaste through it all). Although my husband was out of the house for some time before I filed for divorce, I didn't sleep with anyone until I filed. I didn't feel it was right, even though he was the one who left (and abandoned his child for two years, until divorce forced the issue).

    He wouldn't have cared if I dated/slept around or not, but he hired one of the best divorce attorneys in Boston, and she came at me with issues I'd never considered (nor did my ex). Fortunately, my divorce attorney was more accomplished and got all the opposing attorney's motions thrown out. In any case, I felt that even though we were separated, it would still have been a form of adultery on my part to be with someone else until those papers were filed in Court.

    I thought that through the 1960s, NY had one of the toughest divorce laws in the country. I could be wrong.
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    In Response to Re: Books : Try telling that to someone in the middle of a divorce :) Agree that you cannot begin to heal until you've acknowledged your own wrongdoing.  You can't change others.  You can only change yourself.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick

    That's why I got so much out of personal counseling the year after my divorce.  I needed someone impartial to help me figure out what I did wrong, sort it out, and, thereby, prevent it from happening again.

    I'm happily remarried (3 years next month), and I attribute it largely to figuring out what I did wrong the first time both in the very beginning of the relationship (when I should have ended it before it got very far) and after we were married.

     
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    Re: Books

    BTW, you know the relationship with a separated man or woman is doomed from the get go. There are a number of issues and emotions a person has to go through after a divorce before moving on - denial, fear, adaptation, loneliness, friendship, guilt/rejection, grief, anger, letting go, self-worth, transition, openness, love, trust, relatedness, sexuality, singleness, purpose and freedom. The learning process, IMHO, doesn't and can't begin until one excepts their culpability in the failure of their relationship that ended in divorce.

    In general I'd agree, but ... in my case we were separted for five (!) years before I filed. Neither of us had the funds and both of us were too cheap and he was too lazy to file. Then he dropped out of site for two years, and it took a private investigator to find him, so that we could address child matters. I went through all that you cited, above, by the time I filed. That was 10/94; by 3/05, I was divorced. But both of us had checked out years earlier. My culpability was in not seeing that I was marrying an alcoholic. What did I know about alcohol? Nothing. My friends were pot-heads. I rarely drank after being a wild child in college. As far I knew I didn't know any alcoholics. My culpability was also not leaving him the first time he threatened me. I didn't think I was the guilty one, but I thought his behavior was a one-off thing. Until it happened again. Yes, I was lonely in those years, but I had a solid group of friends and work and activities that consumed me. Plus, I was caring for a toddler, my priority.

    My Mum was sick in those years, and although she was in a really good nursing home, I was (and wanted to be) her primary family caregiver. Mum passed - I wasn't there in that moment, but until they took her body away, I curled up in her hospital bed with her, and sang her the lullabyes that she sang me.

    So, I was a busy little sandwich generationer. Raising my daughter; dealing with a troubled spouse; caring for my Mum. Plus working. I taught, and I had housemates to help with the bills. Good housemates, who stayed for years. They were responsible, quiet and studious (medical and nursing students, we lived near the Longwood medical area), and I liked them. One of the nursing students cared for me and the fawn when I had a flu that wouldn't quit for weeks.

    I was able to deal with the loneliness. I was not so able to cope with the fact that he didn't see her for two years, because he didn't want to deal with setting up visits, child support, etc. He was actually willing not to see his daughter, because of his logistical matters, like coming up with $100/week for our baby. (That was an informal child support arrangement; the Court knocked it down to $86/week. Then he fell behind for 19 months, until I threatened to return to Court, he hates Court so he quickly caught up, and to his credit, has been doing well on this since.)

    I've always been able to love and trust, always - maybe I'm a little too trusting, I always have been. Even through the long years of separation, I was able to love and trust. I am not only capable of giving love, but of receiving it, too. One might be surprised at how many people can't receive it but can give it.

    I respectfully disagree with youy about the separated part. Some people are quite ready to love again, in a healthy, holistic way, once they're separated. However, I don't find it useful if the separated couple is still living in the same home, even if it's for financial reasons in this crummy economy. Get a room in a rooming house, live with a friend on the friend's couch, but don't live with your spouse.                
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    In Response to Re: Books : Try telling that to someone in the middle of a divorce :) Agree that you cannot begin to heal until you've acknowledged your own wrongdoing.  You can't change others.  You can only change yourself.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick


    Changing onself? Yes. This is why I'll take the gaspipe before I ever get involved with another alcoholic.
     
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    Re: Books

    My ex and I went to marriage counseling and she took the passive approach. She was waiting for the counselor to say..."Ok, Mr Taylor, based on our conversation here are "your" problems and if "you" fix them you can have a happy marriage! 
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    The same with my ex. He wanted the counselor to list my faults, and my faults alone. He didn't return after the initial consult, but I did. To this day, I see a counselor to help ensure my next marriage is happy and healthy, to help guide me - although I admit, I am mainly focused on avoiding finding another substance abuser.

    To his credit, ex quit smoking almost 2 years ago, after more than 40 years of ciggies. The alcohol is a tough one for him. He doesn't even want to cut back.

    Well, I am off for another initial consult - this one about sleep apnea. Have a fine afternoon, everybody.
     
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    Re: Books

    In Response to Re: Books:
    In Response to Re: Books : Kar, you got so much out of counseling because you invested in it and were a willing participant.  My ex and I went to marriage counseling and she took the passive approach.  She was waiting for the counselor to say..."Ok, Mr Taylor, based on our conversation here are "your" problems and if "you" fix them you can have a happy marriage! The counseling was doomed from the get go, both parties have to invest time and effort into it and put the lessons learned into practice.  Yet another reason I pulled the trigger on the divorce.  I knew I was in a no win situation and that I deserved better even if that means being alone.
    Posted by RogerTaylor

    I said I went to personal counseling after the divorce.  I knew better than to go to marital counseling.  You cannot counsel morality into someone so I didn't even suggest it.  He had lied (admittedly) about a foundational aspect of his life to trick me into marrying him.  It "worked," but it didn't work out.  Counseling wouldn't have made it work out.  

    I got personal counseling to fix myself; it had nothing to do with him.

    ETA:  rdg, gl with the appointment.  sleep apnea is difficult.

     
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    Re: Books

    I figured you did, but I didn't want the idea that I chose to completely forgo marital counselign to get lost in the shuffle. :)  Thanks - kudos to you, too.  Wisdom is only aquired through severe adversity and then only if the things you talked about regarding culpability are in place post-adversity.  Otherwise, adversity makes you bitter, not wise.  And, you have become wise through yours.
     
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    Re: Books

    In my case, it took counseling to help me see that it wasn't all me. 
    ----

    Me too, CHC. I thought I wasn'tr being a good enough wife (except for the sex part, which was clearly on him, because he was the one for whom whiskey made sex impossible).
     
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    Re: Books

    Thanks kar. I'm just waiting around after describing all my symptoms. Still have to do the overnight. I hope, I hope they give me the cpap. No panacea, my sleep apnea friends say, but still, they say that with the cpap they wake up more refreshed than they've been in years.
     
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    Re: Books

    I'm reading Bruce Weber's NYT series about his cross-country bike ride. I've never been to Montana, and he makes it sound lyric.

    RT - I'm writing lyrics to blues songs these days, and am looking for a musician to set them to music. Are you on FB?

     
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