For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    You can't tell a 20 something year old anything.  But, good effort.  Why do you think the divorce rate is 50%?  No one ever tells people this?  No, no one ever listens.  It has to be learned the hard way.
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    My wife and I were married in our 20's and this year celebrated our 30th anniversary. Reason why ours worked is because I agree with everything she says. ;-)
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I'm with kar...sometimes ya gotta just learn the hard way.

    Well-intentioned people have all sorts of advice about "fair fighting",  how to handle a disagreement, how to raise one's children...the bottom line is these are subjects that everyone has to figure out for themselves, given their personalities, character, and style.

    We make mistakes.  We hurt each other sometimes.  Hopefully, we learn.  That's when we look back and remember what Mom/Dad/Aunt Jane/Uncle Joe/my teacher/my best childhood friend tried to tell me!  There's that expression:  "when I was a teenager, my parents were dumb.  Now that I'm 30, I see how  much smarter they've become!"


     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I love that expression, ML.  My parents DID get smarter the older I got!

    The only reason RT knows all this is that he learned the hard way.  God bless him for wanting to help others with what he learned.  But, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees.  You gotta earn 'em.
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Like I said, the School of Hard Knocks doesn't give honorary degrees.  You can't teach anyone anything despite your best efforts.  The most you can do is have a daughter that says, "Oh, yeah, Dad did warn me about that.  Dad?!  What do I do, now?"  If you end up with a daughter who comes to you and asks that, you've done well.  What you won't get is a daughter who doesn't have to make (and learn from) her own big mistakes.  If you process that now, you won't be so shocked when she make them despite your having warned her (and even punished her for exercising bad judgement) 'til you're blue in the face.  Not that you shouldn't try - one day it will dawn on her that you have a clue.  Just not for a long time and not before she makes painful mistakes - that's how she'll gain the clue that you were right all along.  It's only in hindsight that she'll get it, post whatever trauma she's crying to Daddy about.  Those are the teaching moments...the ONLY teaching moments.  Every preemptive lesson falls on "Whatever you say, Dad," or "Whatever it takes to get my cell phone back, Dad," deaf ears.  Sad, but true.  And, am I suggesting you let her fail without warning her?  Nope.  Just don't expect her to always process it the way you're hoping she will (or seems like she has) - she just knows how to sound like she buys it.

    ETA:  The frontal lobe of the brain is the last to develop (into one's 20s), and that is the judgement center.  No matter how smart a teen is, she does not have the literal capacity to process warnings like an adult because her brain development isn't complete in that area yet.  Expecting the impossible is what gets parents (and their kids) in big trouble.  Parents mistakenly attribute too much judgement to their teens and are stunned when disaster strikes saying, "They acted like they got the idea not to do that!"  Assume that her brain is not capable of processing the things you're telling her beyond the fact that if she breaks the rules she gets grounded or her cell phone taken away.  Aside from your punishment looming over them, your lesson boils down to blah, blah, blah.  The key is to make the consequences such that she follows the rules until her brain is developed enough to actually get it and police herself (because she understands the real consequences, not because her cell phone will be taken away).  That won't happen until she's in her early 20s, physiologically speaking.  

    That's why concrete consequences that they care about are so important; they are incapable of policing themselves because they are incapable of analyzing risk in a rational, adult way due to their immature brain chemistry in the judgement center.  To assume (and act accordingly) that she gets much of anything before that is a mistake.  Not only has she not learned it herself the hard way, the only effective way imo, she isn't capable of processing the lessons you present from a brain development perspective.  However, she's fully capable of manipulating you and making you believe she gets it.  The question is, will you accept that and act accordingly, or will you dismiss it and make poor assumptions about what you think she understands because she nodded her head in agreement during your whole speech.

    Here's an excerpt from an article on the adolescent brain that summarizes the basis for my ETA section.  It also explains, imho, why no one should get married before age 25 - the judgement center of their brains is not fully developed.  If it works out for someone to get married before that age, before they have their full capacity for judgement, it's darned good luck.

    The parts of the adolescent brain which develop first are those which control physical coordination, emotion and motivation. However, the part of the brain which controls reasoning and impulses - known as the Prefrontal Cortex - is near the front of the brain and, therefore, develops last. This part of the brain does not fully mature until the age of 25.

    It's as if, while the other parts of the teen brain are shouting, the Prefrontal Cortex is not quite ready to play referee.

     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Knowledge is power.  Understanding that a child's brain is not developed in the judgement center until they are in their 20s is important imo.  I did not mean, imply, or state that you were doing anything less than worthwhile, should change your approach, or anything else of the sort.  

    Take the information for what it's worth.  I know other parents who "know" all the things you know about it and still make the mistake of thinking their kids get stuff they don't really get with tragic consequences.  "My child understands xyz and will be more careful than other kids because I've been such a consciousious, diligent parent.  So, I'm letting them do this 'adult' thing because of that," is an assumption, that based on brain development facts is usually an overstatement/overestimation of what their kid really has processed and has at their disposal to protect them "out there."  As a parent I'd find that a priceless thing to know, but if you don't, you don't.  

    But, I'd hope that this knowledge about brain development would prevent an overestimation of any child's capability to assess risk until they are well into their 20s.
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    My SIL and BIL deliberately invoked CHINS - on themselves. They couldn't cope with the destructive behavior of a couple of their children, so they asked local police and DSS to intervene, effectively abrogating their parental responsibility without actually disowning their children.
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    .....while it's great to "know" a certain part of the brain doesn't develop until your child reaches 20 something.  I don't want to wait! Too many parents make that mistake and that is why we have a juvenile court system
    Posted by RogerTaylor

    I believe I said that it's good information to have so that you don't assume they have processed everything you've taught them the way an adult would.  Assuming that can have tragic consequences.  Teach, lead, and do everything you can do get and keep them on the right path, but you cannot assume it's working to the extent you hope it is right now.  Seems I've hit a nerve, but physiological facts are facts.  Don't like 'em?  Go ahead and dismiss them, but don't shoot the messenger.

    Please point out to me where I said or implied you should wait or change your current method of parenting in any way based on the information that the judgement center is the last to develop.

    I believed that your knowing that teens are not as physiologically capable of assessing risk for themselves would make you an even better parent because you'd be able to foresee problems that might crop up if she's given too much freedom too early because you think she "gets it" because you taught her.  It was a warning for you to not take her head nods in agreement with your judgement lesson too seriously - she might not be getting it as solidly as you assume.  

    But, apparently I was mistaken because all you can do with the information is assume that means I'm saying, "All parenting is pointless."  Sigh.

     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    Well as long as we all take into account that these younger people have developing brains, and give them a pity card rather than rush in to judge them, thats what counts. 
    On the flipside this means that our own brains have no more capacity for growth. Perhaps we are the dumb ones, who are now set in our ways (brain-wise) regardless of our misconceptions of life, and unable to think outside the box. 
    Pity the old decrepit ones who are stuck in their minds with no more room for growth!
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    Well as long as we all take into account that these younger people have developing brains, and give them a pity card rather than rush in to judge them, thats what counts.  On the flipside this means that our own brains have no more capacity for growth. Perhaps we are the dumb ones, who are now set in our ways (brain-wise) regardless of our misconceptions of life, and unable to think outside the box.  Pity the old decrepit ones who are stuck in their minds with no more room for growth!
    Posted by plasko

    This is the most ridiculous conclusion you can possibly draw from the fact that adolescent brains stop developing into adult brains in their 20s.  

    The fact that our brains are fully developed means we acheive maximum capacity for greatest uses and learning experiences after that point. 

    Motor skill brain development ends far before the judgement center and you can see it happening as a child learns to turn over, sit up, stand up, walk, etc.  Does that mean that an adult can't learn to juggle?  Of course, not.  It means that a human can't learn to juggle before the motor skill area of the brain is fully (or nearly fully) developed, along with the area responsible for eye/hand coordination.  That's why you don't see any 1 year old jugglers, but you can learn to juggle at any age after your brain is developed in that area to allow learning how to be possible.

    Same with judgement.  Generally, adults can assess risk better than adolescents because they have their full judgement capacity, biologically speaking.  That certainly doesn't imply that that's the end of the learning road or that teens have no judgement whatsoever.

    Goodness gracious, you folks have made some pretty wild assumptions based on the statement of one biological fact.
     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....:
    In Response to Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage.... : This is the most ridiculous conclusion you can possibly draw from the fact that adolescent brains stop developing into adult brains in their 20s.   The fact that our brains are fully developed means we acheive maximum capacity for greatest uses and learning experiences after that point.  Motor skill brain development ends far before the judgement center and you can see it happening as a child learns to turn over, sit up, stand up, walk, etc.  Does that mean that an adult can't learn to juggle?  Of course, not.  It means that a human can't learn to juggle before the motor skill area of the brain is fully (or nearly fully) developed, along with the area responsible for eye/hand coordination.  That's why you don't see any 1 year old jugglers, but you can learn to juggle at any age after your brain is developed in that area to allow learning how to be possible . Same with judgement.  Generally, adults can assess risk better than adolescents because they have their full judgement capacity, biologically speaking.  That certainly doesn't imply that that's the end of the learning road or that teens have no judgement whatsoever. Goodness gracious, you folks have made some pretty wild assumptions based on the statement of one biological fact.
    Posted by kargiver

    Uh-oh, poor Kar doesn't know when she is being played like a musical instrument. LOL.
    Wink

     
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    Re: For the 20 somethings considering marriage....

    I agree with this article.  I learned the hard way that there is a good way to argue and a bad way.  Nothing good ever comes from starting an argument with the dagger words "You Always" or "You Never".  It's much more contructive and helps the receiver to listen better if you word things from a personal point.  Such as "I feel this".  I also learned using this sentence "I feel this way because of this and it makes me feel turned off" works wonders!

    A time out when arguments are getting very heated is a good thing to.  If I find myself ready to totally blow my top and start overheating and wanting to throw the digs out there?  I always say, "TIME OUT!  15-minutes and we will revisit this when we're both more level headed.

    However, in my 20's would I have ever been able to do this?  Heck NO!  Wink
     
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