Ultimatums

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Both are agreeing to the same ultimatum set forth in the vows: "If you cheat, I'm free to leave the marriage."  Boundary, ultimatum, I still dont' see the difference aside from one being positive sounding and the other negative.  Saying, "I vow to be faithful," (positive sounding) is an implied ultimatum, "If I cheat the marriage is void." (negative sounding)
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Both are agreeing to the same ultimatum set forth in the vows: "If you cheat, I'm free to leave the marriage."  Boundary, ultimatum, I still dont' see the difference aside from one being positive sounding and the other negative.  Saying, "I vow to be faithful," (positive sounding) is an implied ultimatum, "If I cheat the marriage is void." (negative sounding)
    Posted by kargiver


    ....again po TAY toe.....po TA to.....to MAY to....to MAH to......IMHO Wink
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    RT, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes, but let me ask something a bit different:  what's the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum? For example, your SO tells you "If you ever sleep with anyone else while with me, I'm outta here".  I think most people would argue that's a boundary.  But isn't it also an ultimatum? Is a boundary based on self-respect, while an ultimatum is about control and personal desires? Or is a boundary essentially an ultimatum that would apply to a possible future state, while an ultimatum applies to the actual current state?
    Posted by cb156


    Good post cb!

    I think kar is right that there is a lot of grey in the distinctions here.

    From my vantage point, if somone says "If you ever sleep with anyone else while with me, I'm outta here" that's an ultimatum.

    For me, the difference between a boundry and an ultimatuim is in the explicit definitiveness of it.  There isn't much wiggle room in your statement,  It's "You do X, I'll do Y."

    But the difference between them is more than just that.  I think the time component you mention is a part of it and the social norms/customs/expectations that plasko mentioned are a part of it too.

    To me, a boundry is more fluid.  I think there is a generally agreed upon social norm that cheating on a spouse isn't acceptable (in cases were a couple may be in an open relationship, that's usually explicitly agreed upon between them to bypass the social norm) and that "something" will happen as a result if one is caught cheating although the particulars aren't usually stated. There is also an aspect that one faces social repercussions for the action that extend well beyond the two people in the relationship. In this case, the boundry always existed but we never knew what the exact concequences of crossing it will be.  Stating it in "If/Then" terms turned it into an ultimatum.

    The time factor comes in here because the social expection runs basically forever. If you're married, it's expected that you won't cheat during your marriage...  ever. With ultimatums, the timeframe is usually fairly short.

    Finally, I think a 3rd factor is that in your statement, the person it's being said to isn't being forced to choose between 2 undesirable options (unless of course, they've already slept with someone else and they liked it! lol ).  Much like a physical line in the sand, the issue of crossing a boundry isn't a huge deal unless you happen to be close to it. If you've never had a reason to cross a boundry, don't plan to and aren't near one, it's not really a problem to live within it's confines - so it's not really an undesirable choice. Choosing not to cheat *should* be a desirable option (at least if we accept the social expectation).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Is a boundary a real boundary if it's fluid?  I think if a boundary is solid, it's an implicit ulitmatum.  If it's fluid, it's not an implicit ultimatum, but neither is it a boundary.  Like the line in the sand that keeps moving isn't really a line in the sand.  (Didn't mean to repurpose the "line in the sand" example on you; I hadn't gotten to the end of your post before I started - I go back and forth.)

    I like the timeframe angle.  Fresh pespective on it...   You're saying that if the implicit "or else" is hanging out there indefinitely, it's not an ultimatum? 

    Of course, if both find the "if..." part desirable (as in, neither spouse ever is even tempted to cheat) it's a non-issue, but does it make it less of an ultimatum?  It's like if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a noise?  I think so.

    (How much fun is this?!  I don't get to have too many fun logic debates/discussions these days.  The person in my life who loved such discussions, my dear grandmother (sharp as a tack 'til the end) passed away in 2008.)




     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    I love logic discussions as well..!
    I still say there is a difference. Even in a dating relationship and by the way..I also feel that a dating relationships should not be assumed to be exlusive unless it is something that has been discussed and agreed between both people. In Plasko's example..I have to wonder if the subject of exclusivity had ever come up in the first place. Yes..they were sleeping together and to me that states a level of exclusivity..but that is me. I would not assume everyone felt that way. I know a couple of women who date and sleep with more than one person at a time. Never a choice I would make..but the definitions mean something different to them.
    My point on a boundary is that boundaries are usually mutually agreed upon terms in a relationship....Both parties agree that doing things like cheating and lying would be harmful to the relationship and boundaries are usually in place to help the relationship strengthen ( and by the way..I really don't like even using the term boundary..I prefer "consideration"...but for the sake of consistency in this overall discussion I use boundary). I state again..an ultimatum is something different. I find that ultimatums are usually based on only what one person wants...rather than what the relationship agrees to.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    miscricket, I'll have to give your additonal thoughts a better look this afternoon.  I'm going out momentarily and don't want to rush.  I'm eager to respond, though. :)
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Interesting discussion.
    Kargiver, I think fluidity in a boundary may be similar to an ultimatum that is not followed through on.  Or, perhaps that fluidity is what really distinguishes a boundary from an ultimatum--a boundary could be crossed, but if the consequences for that action have not already been specifically stated (turning it into an ultimatum), that crossing might be overlooked.
    I was extremely interested in your stating that a boundary is an implicit ultimatum.  The following is what I was about to post after J-I-L's last post, before seeing yours and miscrickets':

    What I am hearing here is that while we seem to like to distinguish between ultimatums and boundaries (as Kargiver pointed out, one is negative, the other positive), RT seems to be on point that there really isn't a distinction between them.
    I spent some time thinking about this, and it all does come back to each one essentially being a statement of, at the least, "If X, there will be (negative) consequences".
    Let me see if I can express this in a way that gets everyone on the same page.
    I still keep coming back to the idea that something considered a boundary is based on self-respect and personal limits.  We all have these, but since they are personal, each of us may have different boundaries (for example, some people can sell drugs to earn money and are OK with that, others can't).  These are intended to help define our sense of self, and keep us generally inline with our own moral compass.  An ultimatum, on the other hand, is simply a demand we make to obtain a personally satisfactory outcome in a given situation.
    To the extent that each presents a consequence due to non-compliance, they are the same.  And, in effect, a boundary becomes an ultimatum, as J-I-L discussed, when it is stretched, or crossed.

    Perhaps a boundary is a concept of a personal limit that carries with it an implicit ultimatum, designed to protect our sense of self and self-worth?

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Wow! I really didn't expect this many posts - nearly twice as many as my "How important is trust? question.

    I actually thought there wold be a lot of women defending ultimatums -
    I was wrong, and freely admit to it!
     
    I guess my surprise is based on most of the women I have dated had no problem issuing ultimatums when it came to moving in and marriage (what can I say, I'm a great guy....lol)

    It appears short of drugs, alcohol and risk of injury - there is no place for an ultimatum in adult relationships!

    Thank you all.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Games tapes, RT, game tapes.
    Back to the Media Room for review.
    If you've spent time on the LL forum, you'd see that ultimatums are not looked on kindly by that group--which is heavily female.
    That "most of the women I have dated had no problem issuing ultimatums" says something about the kinds of women you are attracted to and the kinds of relationships you get into.

    And I, for one, would like to thank you for opening this thread.  This has been one of the most interesting, well-thought out and civil discussions I have seen in a long, long time.  Keep asking the questions you've been asking--they have provided a lot of stimulating chat.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Sooooo, a boundary is "implied" by social norms and an ultimatum is "expressed"...is that the conclusion?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Sooooo, a boundary is "implied" by social norms and an ultimatum is "expressed"...is that the conclusion?
    Posted by RogerTaylor


    I think that depends on how specific you are being, or perhaps at what level of abstraction you are framing the question.
    For example, I would say in general, a "relationship", as a social concept, includes boundaries.  But at a specific instance level, the boundaries themselves are not necessarily based on social norms (that is, there is no accepted idea of what or where the boundaries should be), but on the social behaviors the parties in the relationship will accept or tolerate for themselves and from the other person.
    Since this necessarily deals with personal boundaries, I don't think it is ever a good idea to assume where those boundaries are, or that the other person necessarily shares the same idea of those boundaries.  Plasko (I think) already provided one example where the two assumed where the boundaries were, and they did not match up.
    I think relationship boundaries are different from socially accepted behaviors.

    I would, at the least, agree that an ultimatum is expressed and explicit, as opposed to implied.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Or, ultimatums are, in fact, necessary, and we call them "boundaries" unless the "or else" is extreme in nature.

    I'm a person who does not have particularly fluid boundaries - that's what makes them boundaries for me.  Crossing a boundary has consequences, just ask my narcissistic brother-in-law.  That's not to say I'm an unforgiving, ungracious person, but disappointing my general expectations is not necessarily crossing a boundary and may have no ramfications if I choose to ignore/forgive/whatever.

    I believe the only difference between a true (uncrossable/immovable) boundary and an ultimatum is, like cb suggested, timing; an ultimatum demands an immediate response.  An ongoing boundary, say, the boundary of marriage as defined by the vows, is not, an ultimatum, as miscricket has asserted all along.

    However, as unromatic as it might be, that means I stand by the idea that a marriage proposal is an ultimatum.  Marriage vows, are not.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Or, ultimatums are, in fact, necessary, and we call them "boundaries" unless the "or else" is extreme in nature. I'm a person who does not have particularly fluid boundaries - that's what makes them boundaries for me.  Crossing a boundary has consequences, just ask my narcissistic brother-in-law.  That's not to say I'm an unforgiving, ungracious person, but disappointing my general expectations is not necessarily crossing a boundary and may have no ramfications if I choose to ignore/forgive/whatever. I believe the only difference between a true (uncrossable/immovable) boundary and an ultimatum is, like cb suggested, timing; an ultimatum demands an immediate response.  An ongoing boundary, say, the boundary of marriage as defined by the vows, is not, an ultimatum, as miscricket has asserted all along. However, as unromatic as it might be, that means I stand by the idea that a marriage proposal is an ultimatum.  Marriage vows, are not.
    Posted by kargiver



    I would agree with that. And I am sure boundaries are fluid with time too. 
    Given the case where a man confesses to his wife that he cheated on her with a 1 night stand, except it was 25 years ago, he regretted it and it made his marriage stronger (unknowingly to the wife) as he realized what he was risking. I am sure the wife would forgive him as it was so long in the past.
    Now if the husband said the exact same words but the cheating happened last week, I am sure he'd be kicked out the door soon as you could say "jack flash". Yet the same boundary had been crossed. 
    Time really is a healer and puts a lot into perspective, whether its people dying or other traumatic events. 
    Cool discussion, we should do the "deep and meaningfuls" more often as opposed to the shallow "dresses" and "makeup" things that are usually on the board. 



     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Games tapes, RT, game tapes. Back to the Media Room for review. If you've spent time on the LL forum, you'd see that ultimatums are not looked on kindly by that group--which is heavily female. That "most of the women I have dated had no problem issuing ultimatums" says something about the kinds of women you are attracted to and the kinds of relationships you get into. And I, for one, would like to thank you for opening this thread.  This has been one of the most interesting, well-thought out and civil discussions I have seen in a long, long time.  Keep asking the questions you've been asking--they have provided a lot of stimulating chat.
    Posted by cb156


    First: You are sooooo! correct cb156 - I have reviewed the tapes of my relationships -in part - when I was married I was an a*****hole for doing the laundry, grocery shopping, dusting, cooking, cleaning the toilets, washing the kitchen floor and oh yeah! taking my 2 kids to D&D so Mom could sleep on Sunday morning but I digress - and will be shifting gears when I decide to move forward! I'm tired of being the "nice guy that finishes last guy!" - but, rest assured I will vent here for adult advice.

    Second: The moment a discussion here digresses to something less than an "adult" forum/conversation I'm done.  There is no need for "fighting" over an opinion that differs from mine. I come here for the diversity of opinions good and bad! I see no need for judgement or name calling, to those that do I would suggest they grow up.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Doing those things makes me, a woman, a hero, and a guy an a** - sexism at its worst.  Sorry, RT, you were the target of it.  Hope our thoughts, experiences, and advice all go toward your getting past the past and on to a brighter future.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Doing those things makes me, a woman, a hero, and a guy an a** - sexism at its worst.  Sorry, RT, you were the target of it.  Hope our thoughts, experiences, and advice all go toward your getting past the past and on to a brighter future.
    Posted by kargiver


    as I said/quoted.....

    "If we fail to learn from our mistakes, we are condemned to repeat them."

    cbc156 has offered some GREAT in site and advice that I just haven't taken advantage of yet...when I decide to start dating again I'll do my homework first and use the advice provided.

    ....I'm not done here.  I've got a number of thoughts/questions I'd like to discuss here.



     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Is a boundary a real boundary if it's fluid?  I think if a boundary is solid, it's an implicit ulitmatum.  If it's fluid, it's not an implicit ultimatum, but neither is it a boundary.  Like the line in the sand that keeps moving isn't really a line in the sand.  (Didn't mean to repurpose the "line in the sand" example on you; I hadn't gotten to the end of your post before I started - I go back and forth.) I like the timeframe angle.  Fresh pespective on it...   You're saying that if the implicit "or else" is hanging out there indefinitely, it's not an ultimatum?  Of course, if both find the "if..." part desirable (as in, neither spouse ever is even tempted to cheat) it's a non-issue, but does it make it less of an ultimatum?  It's like if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a noise?  I think so. (How much fun is this?!  I don't get to have too many fun logic debates/discussions these days.  The person in my life who loved such discussions, my dear grandmother (sharp as a tack 'til the end) passed away in 2008.)
    Posted by kargiver


    Why can't a boundry be fluid?  Just as an example that pretty much everyone can relate to - laws.  Laws are boundries, no?  They specificy that something can or can't be done.  For example, robbing a bank is prohibited by laws pretty much everywhere. From my perspective, that's a boundry.

    Now, what happens when someone does rob a bank? The boundry has been crossed.  So what happens?  Well, most laws also have clauses that state what the punishments *can be* if someone robs a bank. Again, for example, the law will say that's punishible by serving 10-20 years in prison.  That in some ways makes it sound like an ultimatum (i.e. you rob a bank you go to jail for 10-20 years) but...  What happens if you rob a bank and they don't know it was you? 
    What happens if the they do figure out it was you but the jury doesn't find you guilty?  What happens if the judge decides that you only deserve 2 years in prison?

    The point there is that the laws say what *can* possibly happen if you violate the boundry but they don't say what *will* happen definitively.

    Similarly, within a relationship, if one person says "I don't tolerate being cheated on." that's a boundry IMO. You don't know what the repercussions might be if you violate the boundry. Compare that to "If you cheat on me, I'll divorce you!" where the repercussion is explicity stated. The first is stating a boundry, the 2nd is an ultimatum.

    That's what I meant by "fluid".

    Now, as far as a tree falling in the woods, no. A falling tree creates air vibrations but there is no "sound" or "noise" unless there is something there to "hear" it. (Sound and noise are created by the act of the ear or a microphone converting the air vibrations into electrical impulses.  Without an ear, you have air vibrations but no electrical impulses so no "noise". ;) )    
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    If the consequences of crossing a boundary at least partially define the boundary itself, then, yes, I see your point.  But, I don't tend to see it that way.  I think the fence is the fence is the fence.  What might happen to a dog if he escapes doesn't change the fence itself.

    Indeed, sound is an anatomical response to waves that could produce sound were the proper anatomy was around to interpret it.  
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JEnvie. Show JEnvie's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : First: You are sooooo! correct  cb156 - I have reviewed the tapes of my relationships -in part - when I was married I was an a*****hole for doing the laundry, grocery shopping, dusting, cooking, cleaning the toilets, washing the kitchen floor and oh yeah! taking my 2 kids to D&D so Mom could sleep on Sunday morning but I digress - and will be shifting gears when I decide to move forward! I'm tired of being the "nice guy that finishes last guy!" - but, rest assured I will vent here for adult advice. Second: The moment a discussion here digresses to something less than an "adult" forum/conversation I'm done.  There is no need for "fighting" over an opinion that differs from mine. I come here for the diversity of opinions good and bad! I see no need for judgement or name calling, to those that do I would suggest they grow up.
    Posted by RogerTaylor



    what's d&d?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Hmmm..  My intent wasn't to imply that the consequences define the boundry.  The concequences (or knowledge of them at least) identify something *as* a boundry as opposed to an ultimatum.

    As far as your fence/dog...  allow me to ask this. You live in a small castle on a 1/4 acre of land surrounded by water.  If that band of water is 20 ft. wide would you not expect people to define that as a moat?  Now take that same castle on the same 1/4 acre of land and widen that band of water to 5000 miles.  Do you still have a moat? I don't think many people would define it that way.  They'd say you live on an island in the middle of an ocean.

    Either way you have a boundry (the waterline) of water surrounding you, but the words used to describe the two situations change significantly based on what is on the other side of that boundry.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : what's d&d?
    Posted by JEnvie



    Dunkin Donuts (D&D)
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Sooooo, a boundary is "implied" by social norms and an ultimatum is "expressed"...is that the conclusion?
    Posted by RogerTaylor

    Essentially..yes. I agree with that.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from calmdown. Show calmdown's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    D & D is Dunkin Donuts?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Hmmm..  My intent wasn't to imply that the consequences define the boundry.  The concequences (or knowledge of them at least) identify something *as* a boundry as opposed to an ultimatum. As far as your fence/dog...  allow me to ask this. You live in a small castle on a 1/4 acre of land surrounded by water.  If that band of water is 20 ft. wide would you not expect people to define that as a moat?  Now take that same castle on the same 1/4 acre of land and widen that band of water to 5000 miles.  Do you still have a moat? I don't think many people would define it that way.  They'd say you live on an island in the middle of an ocean. Either way you have a boundry (the waterline) of water surrounding you, but the words used to describe the two situations change significantly based on what is on the other side of that boundry.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton

    I have to admit your questions are good, but I've run out of steam on this one.  Forgive me if I leave my comments as they stand?  :)

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : I have to admit your questions are good, but I've run out of steam on this one.  Forgive me if I leave my comments as they stand?  :)
    Posted by kargiver



    Put a fork in it, it's done!

    Thank you all Laughing
     
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