posted at 8/26/2011 6:16 PM EDT
In Response to Re: Ultimatums
[QUOTE]Is a boundary a real boundary if it's fluid? I think if a boundary is solid, it's an implicit ulitmatum. If it's fluid, it's not an implicit ultimatum, but neither is it a boundary. Like the line in the sand that keeps moving isn't really a line in the sand. (Didn't mean to repurpose the "line in the sand" example on you; I hadn't gotten to the end of your post before I started - I go back and forth.) I like the timeframe angle. Fresh pespective on it... You're saying that if the implicit "or else" is hanging out there indefinitely, it's not an ultimatum? Of course, if both find the "if..." part desirable (as in, neither spouse ever is even tempted to cheat) it's a non-issue, but does it make it less of an ultimatum? It's like if a tree falls alone in the forest, does it make a noise? I think so. (How much fun is this?! I don't get to have too many fun logic debates/discussions these days. The person in my life who loved such discussions, my dear grandmother (sharp as a tack 'til the end) passed away in 2008.)
Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
Why can't a boundry be fluid? Just as an example that pretty much everyone can relate to - laws. Laws are boundries, no? They specificy that something can or can't be done. For example, robbing a bank is prohibited by laws pretty much everywhere. From my perspective, that's a boundry.
Now, what happens when someone does rob a bank? The boundry has been crossed. So what happens? Well, most laws also have clauses that state what the punishments *can be* if someone robs a bank. Again, for example, the law will say that's punishible by serving 10-20 years in prison. That in some ways makes it sound like an ultimatum (i.e. you rob a bank you go to jail for 10-20 years) but... What happens if you rob a bank and they don't know it was you?
What happens if the they do figure out it was you but the jury doesn't find you guilty? What happens if the judge decides that you only deserve 2 years in prison?
The point there is that the laws say what *can* possibly happen if you violate the boundry but they don't say what *will* happen definitively.
Similarly, within a relationship, if one person says "I don't tolerate being cheated on." that's a boundry IMO. You don't know what the repercussions might be if you violate the boundry. Compare that to "If you cheat on me, I'll divorce you!" where the repercussion is explicity stated. The first is stating a boundry, the 2nd is an ultimatum.
That's what I meant by "fluid".
Now, as far as a tree falling in the woods, no. A falling tree creates air vibrations but there is no "sound" or "noise" unless there is something there to "hear" it. (Sound and noise are created by the act of the ear or a microphone converting the air vibrations into electrical impulses. Without an ear, you have air vibrations but no electrical impulses so no "noise". ;) )