1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/29/2011 8:46 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : I have to admit your questions are good, but I've run out of steam on this one.  Forgive me if I leave my comments as they stand?  :)
    Posted by kargiver


    Well pewp!  You know that it's gonna be 6 or 7 years before someone starts another thread this good, right? :p
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 2ada63d622e89774a9fdcbc90527ab8e. Show 2ada63d622e89774a9fdcbc90527ab8e's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/30/2011 8:09 AM EDT

    I think ultimatums will generally backfire, and I try not to use them. If something really bad happens that I won't tolerate, I'll say that I won't tolerate it, but I won't threaten.

    However, I've known more than one woman in a LT relationship she thought would lead to marriage and children move out and get her own place, only to have left-alone-on-his-own BF pop the question. Marriage and children followed. One woman in particular was a few years older than her BF and, while they were devoted to each other, he just figured he'd have another five to ten years to take the whole thing seriously. I wouldn't call her action an ultimatum; she simply told him that she was going to go ahead and try to get what she wanted in life. She bought a condo and moved out. There was nothing angry or vituperative about it.  I wouldn't call her selfish; I'd call her honest. She wasn't going to try to manipulate him into marrying her, she was just going to move on. She let him know that if he wanted to be her partner, that she'd welcome it. He did and she did.
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/30/2011 9:23 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Well pewp!  You know that it's gonna be 6 or 7 years before someone starts another thread this good, right? :p
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton


    Hopefully not, and somehow with this pensive, "deep thoughts" crowd I don't think we'll have to wait that long.  I like "pewp" - can I steel it?  I wish BDC weren't so uptight.
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/30/2011 11:16 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums :  I like "pewp" - can I steel it?  I wish BDC weren't so uptight.
    Posted by kargiver


    Be my guest!  People use it in the Love Letters blog fairly often and I stole it from them. Tongue out
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/30/2011 11:32 AM EDT

    Is the thread still alive?  :)

    I have a good example for you all.  

    My cousin (female) was married very young, and had two children immediately following a tight timeframe.  By the time she was 30, her husband had an early mid-life crisis  (felt trapped by an early marriage, etc.) and they divorced. He remarried within a few years.

    She, on the other hand, went on to date for many years.  Her main non-negotiable issue was that she did not want to bear any more children.  She was fine dating someone with kids, but was clear that she was not willing to give birth to any more kids.  She loved the two she had, and that was enough for her.  

    She had a few serious boyfriends when she was in her thirties, all of whom thought they could change her mind.  She told them (one in particular who stuck around for 3 years) her mind was made up, but she would love to keep seeing him if that's what he wanted, but with the caveat that she would not change.  And she didn't.  The 3-year guy ultimately broke up with her. 

    I do not consider the way she felt or expressed herself an ultimatum, I really don't.  It wasn't "If you want kids, then don't bother dating me" -- it was more like, "I love children and if you have children of your own, that's fine with me.  But I do not want to get pregnant again, so if you're okay with that, I'd love to go out / continue going out with you."

    When the serious boyfriend(s) kept testing her resolve, she just said that she made her feelings clear and upfront from the beginning.   If they continued to see her, she did not feel responsible.   

    Good example, anyhow, that women aren't the only party who are trying to get a partner to change about a major relationship issue.  :D

    NOTE:  My cousin has never remarried (to date) and her former husband divorced his second wife a while back (she had children from a previous marriage, but they never had more kids).  My cousin and her former husband have remained friends.  
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/30/2011 7:48 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Is the thread still alive?  :) I have a good example for you all.   My cousin (female) was married very young, and had two children immediately following a tight timeframe.  By the time she was 30, her husband had an early mid-life crisis  (felt trapped by an early marriage, etc.) and they divorced.  He remarried within a few years. She, on the other hand, went on to date for many years.  Her main non-negotiable issue was that she did not want to bear any more children.  She was fine dating someone with kids, but was clear that she was not willing to give birth to any more kids.  She loved the two she had, and that was enough for her.   She had a few serious boyfriends when she was in her thirties, all of whom thought they could change her mind.  She told them (one in particular who stuck around for 3 years) her mind was made up, but she would love to keep seeing him if that's what he wanted, but with the caveat that she would not change.  And she didn't.  The 3-year guy ultimately broke up with her.  I do not consider the way she felt or expressed herself an ultimatum, I really don't.  It wasn't "If you want kids, then don't bother dating me" -- it was more like, "I love children and if you have children of your own, that's fine with me.  But I do not want to get pregnant again, so if you're okay with that, I'd love to go out / continue going out with you." When the serious boyfriend(s) kept testing her resolve, she just said that she made her feelings clear and upfront from the beginning.   If they continued to see her, she did not feel responsible.    Good example, anyhow, that women aren't the only party who are trying to get a partner to change about a major relationship issue.   :D NOTE:   My cousin has never remarried (to date) and her former husband divorced his second wife a while back (she had children from a previous marriage, but they never had more kids).  My cousin and her former husband have remained friends.  
    Posted by yogafriend


    Yeah, I don't get this whole..."I'll change his/her mind once we start dating..." mindset!

    I refer to my non-negotiable's as an "UP FRONT CONTRACT/AGREEMENT" - Must be a non-smoker, does not want kids but, it's OK if she has kids, etc...I would never date someone with the "hopes" of changing someone's mind. But these are not examples of ultimatums [IMHO] it's more about being up front about what I do and don't want...
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 8:52 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Yeah, I don't get this whole..."I'll change his/her mind once we start dating..." mindset! I refer to my non-negotiable's as an "UP FRONT CONTRACT/AGREEMENT" - Must be a non-smoker, does not want kids but, it's OK if she has kids, etc...I would never date someone with the "hopes" of changing someone's mind. But these are not examples of ultimatums [IMHO] it's more about being up front about what I do and don't want...
    Posted by RogerTaylor

    The "I don't want kids" thing is tough because everyone and their brother loves to say "oh, you'll change your mind."
    Funny how they never say that to anyone who does want kids!
    DH and I don't want kids, and we always hear "You'll change your mind."

    I always want to reply "Thank you, Dionne Warwick, you truly are a psychic friend."

     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 12:17 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : The "I don't want kids" thing is tough because everyone and their brother loves to say "oh, you'll change your mind." Funny how they never say that to anyone who does want kids! DH and I don't want kids, and we always hear "You'll change your mind." I always want to reply "Thank you, Dionne Warwick, you truly are a psychic friend."
    Posted by pinkkittie27


    GREAT POST!

    Again WHY do people think they can change a persons mind about such a huge issue???

    Just think it's crazy! You can filter on line dating sites to choose people that don't want kids! If you don't want them make that a topic of your first conversation or meeting! Don't create a fire storm 3yrs into a relationship only to find out "Oh, I didn't know you wanted kids!"....Undecided
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dog-lady. Show dog-lady's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 12:31 PM EDT

    Because things change, people change.  "Never say never."  What you want today may be very different from what you want 10 or 20 years from now, or not.     In response to:   "Why do people think they can change a persons mind about such a huge issue?"
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Maldenlady. Show Maldenlady's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 2:30 PM EDT

    to me, an ultimaturn carries with it the not-so-hidden agenda of manipulating someone else's behavior -- "if you serve me liver and onions, I'll ________".  A boundary is, to me, just a statement of what your limits are (at least right now)..."No, thanks, I'll pass on the liver and onions..." 

    That's not to say that in the future, I may fall in love with liver and onions...but what's important is that, for now, can we have something else instead??

    I'm loving this thread, and the very heady, sophisticated overtones of those who are clearly educated in Philosophy.  Whose judgement about the interaction carries the greater weight?  The ultimatuner, or the ultimatumee?  Who gets to decide whether what's been served is an ultimatum?  Potato, potatoe...if a tree falls iin the forest, is the sound of the ultimatum only important if it's heard??  Can one person's ultimatum be another's boundary?

    Cogito ergo sum!

     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 3:47 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Because things change, people change.  "Never say never."  What you want today may be very different from what you want 10 or 20 years from now, or not.     In response to:   "Why do people think they can change a persons mind about such a huge issue?"
    Posted by dog-lady


    Yeah but!

    Example: If  person "A" holds a certain personal belief like "I don't want children" and expresses that up front to a date/partner then they,the date, know from the get go = NO KIDS!

    Could "A" change his or her mind? SURE, but NOT at the bequest of another! That change should come from within "A" not pressure to accommodate another's needs/wants. And if "A" refuses to budge that's within his/her right.

    Dating someone with the hopes of "changing" them/mindset [IMHO] is idiotic and [IMHO] can only end badly - in this example - if you want to be with someone that wants "X" then date those people that only want "X".

    There are plenty of fish in the sea.....there are a few, that also love liver and onions!

     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 8/31/2011 4:18 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Cogito ergo sum!
    Posted by Maldenlady

    Cool

     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ariesgirl. Show ariesgirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/1/2011 1:26 PM EDT

    Yes Calmie, D&D IS dunkin donuts.  next?
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bubs06. Show Bubs06's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/1/2011 4:08 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    to me, an ultimaturn carries with it the not-so-hidden agenda of manipulating someone else's behavior -- "if you serve me liver and onions, I'll ________".  A boundary is, to me, just a statement of what your limits are (at least right now)..."No, thanks, I'll pass on the liver and onions..."  That's not to say that in the future, I may fall in love with liver and onions...but what's important is that, for now, can we have something else instead?? I'm loving this thread, and the very heady, sophisticated overtones of those who are clearly educated in Philosophy.  Whose judgement about the interaction carries the greater weight?  The ultimatuner, or the ultimatumee?  Who gets to decide whether what's been served is an ultimatum?  Potato, potatoe...if a tree falls iin the forest, is the sound of the ultimatum only important if it's heard??  Can one person's ultimatum be another's boundary? Cogito ergo sum!
    Posted by Maldenlady


     "if you serve me liver and onions, I'll be your loyal love slave forever"

    Nothing like liver and onions to get me out of semi retirement. 

    So I have been through the "why not have kids with me despite having two grown daughters and said you don't want anymore.........." No really, I meant it then and I mean it now. 

    The upside of getting and dating older is that that recreate is all that's left of procreate.I hate ultimatums. Except for the aforementioned substance abuse and other healh matters they tend to become a sliding line in the sand that lose conviction over time. 

    Liver and onions, oh my.

     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ariesgirl. Show ariesgirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/1/2011 4:11 PM EDT

    Bubssssssssssssss!  what a pleasure.  Unfortunately I do have to give you an ultimatum though.  What about the Chlobster?  I can't do this alone you know.  Love, Aries.
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Amethyst2. Show Amethyst2's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/2/2011 7:47 PM EDT

    Bubs!  How the heck are ya??


     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from suprdav. Show suprdav's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/3/2011 4:34 AM EDT

    My Ex used to tell me to do this or that or she was going to "leave me." I used to laugh at her b/c I knew it wasn't true and ultimately I left her. So, maybe ulitmatums do work - just not always the way you think.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/3/2011 8:44 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    My Ex used to tell me to do this or that or she was going to "leave me." I used to laugh at her b/c I knew it wasn't true and ultimately I left her. So, maybe ulitmatums do work - just not always the way you think.
    Posted by suprdav

    That's definitely true - they always have an effect of some sort!

     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 1:45 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : I agree 100% Jim.  I actually think your distinction as to when to use an ultimatum is/are the only times to use one. I wouldn't anticipate anything better than 50/50 odds of success, especially with drugs and alcohol involved. But, how about in a relationship? "We've been dating for 5 years - I want/we need - to get married or else!"
    Posted by RogerTaylor


    Either you get married - or you don't. I feel anything more than 2 - 3 years is a heck of a time to be with someone, but not to be married. Unless one is in the de Beauvoir - Sartre mode, or can't marry (married partner is married to someone who has Alzheimer's).

    No critique. Some of us are the marrying kind, some of us aren't. I do better when I'm in a relationship, period. I need that kind of structure that doesn't come with casual dating.

    I would hope that someone in such a LTR - 5 years or more - would have given thought to the future, and not just let the wind carry him/her. Some are opposed to marriage on legal or philosophical grounds, fine. But if not, why wait any longer?

    I see ultimatims as different from hard limits. I have hard limits - no smoking (tobacco); no hunting; no animals/no kids (you know, in the bad way). I'm claustrophobic, so don't want to be forced on a plane if there are other ways to get places. I'm very giving, and therefore must be with someone who is capable of receiving love. I'd like to find someone with whom I can grow old, and I'm monogamous.

    I feel it's reasonable to be cranky and impatient after five years - as long as one can express that without compromising the dignity of one's partner.
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 2:13 AM EDT

    I don't like (c. diamondgirl) liver.

     

  21. This post has been removed.

     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 10:01 AM EDT

    And minds can and do change. About children. About marriage. Vasectomies are reversed. Someone's against marriage until they meet "the one."

    The point is not to nudge and nag the partner who says no. Let it all evolve organically.
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bubs06. Show Bubs06's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 11:19 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    And minds can and do change. About children. About marriage. Vasectomies are reversed. Someone's against marriage until they meet "the one." The point is not to nudge and nag the partner who says no. Let it all evolve organically.
    Posted by reindeergirl


    "The point is not to nudge and nag the partner who says no. Let it all evolve organically."

    Perfectly said and I am in total agreement. When we spout ultimatums we turn each other off and that kills the positives. You really should, after time, kind of know the other person and what they want. Or don't want. You hate to be resentful later.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 5:51 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : "The point is not to nudge and nag the partner who says no. Let it all evolve organically." Perfectly said and I am in total agreement. When we spout ultimatums we turn each other off and that kills the positives. You really should, after time, kind of know the other person and what they want. Or don't want. You hate to be resentful later.
    Posted by Bubs06


    ...provided communication isn't an issue there should be no need to "nudge and nag the partner"...adults communicate, broken individuals who lack the ability to communicate in a constructive manner "nudge and nag"...what ever happened to the fine art of "conversing"? - Jim/Jane we've been together "X" years and I know I said I didn't want to marry but, you've changed my mind and I was curious as to how you felt about marriage?" versus Why don't you want to get married? aren't I good enough? Is there someone else? it's been 5 years that we've been together you need to think about our future! All my friends are married! It must be nice to be married like Jim/Jane.....
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from hollygolitely-. Show hollygolitely-'s posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/6/2011 11:38 PM EDT

    nudging and nagging does have its benefits sometimes.  i mean, how else would I get anybody to listen to me and act accordingly and do everything i want?!  until you people can come up with some better ideas, i'm sticking with nudging and nagging.  That goes for you too Bubs.   Holly a/k/a Ariesgirl.