Ultimatums

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Life plays out like this all the time - we make decisions of finality based on "unspoken" ultimatums when a proposition is rejected or goals aren't being met.   Clearly, she could have done it nicer and proposed to him....he could have said "no" and move on from there.  In my mind I can't help but wonder why she didn't.
     
    Try to understand where she may be coming from and the emotions behind her ultimatum.  No matter what she does, she loses him.  She needs to leave and she knows it but instead of a sweet proposal she throws out what turns out to be a misguided lifeline to save the relationship.  Why did she do this?  I can't help but wonder.
     
    Posted by KayRox


    The "she" and "he" here are completely hypothetical so I'm a bit confused on why you're wondering about why either would do anything.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    There should never be a need for "marry me or else."  If a relationship has dragged on and one party refuses to allow the relationship to progress, the other needs to just decide they've waited long enough in a stagnant relationship and leave. Things don't progress naturally toward marriage for 5 years .  Someone has put the cruise control on for a reason; they do not want to accelerate.  Therefore, the idea that there would need to be an ultimatum is not often valid.  The decision to cruise along without marrying has been made (by one of them) long ago, and the other doesn't realize it.  And, generally speaking, forcing it to be changed 5 years into a relationship in which one person has purposely kept it from progressing toward marriage is a set up for divorce. 
    Posted by kargiver


    Well...  I'm gonna quibble with this a bit. ;)

    Who decided that the "natural" progression of a relationship ends at marriage?  Marriage is a completely unnatural construct.

    I get that general society has come to expect that a relationship should culminate in marriage but that's far from natural.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Well...  I'm gonna quibble with this a bit. ;) Who decided that the "natural" progression of a relationship ends at marriage?  Marriage is a completely un natural construct. I get that general society has come to expect that a relationship should culminate in marriage but that's far from natural.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton
    Well, quibble away.  :D   I've been on relationship boards for over five years, and while a generalization, I've seen that the majority of people do consider marriage the end goal, unless they have just recently been divorced, or of course, are very young, like still in high school.  :D

    Society be damned.   Maybe "traditional" is a more accurate word than "natural" ??     

    Well, enjoy your day in any event.  :)
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Well...  I'm gonna quibble with this a bit. ;) Who decided that the "natural" progression of a relationship ends at marriage?  Marriage is a completely un natural construct. I get that general society has come to expect that a relationship should culminate in marriage but that's far from natural.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton


    Great post Jim!
    Many people marry for the wrong reasons, among them (1) to overcome loneliness, (2) to escape an unhappy  parental home, (3) because they think that everybody is expected to marry, (4) out of a need to parent, or be parented by, another person (5) because only "losers" who can't find someone to marry stay single, (6) because they got pregnant and (7) because "we fell in love" and on and on and on...

    Those who get married for these wrong reasons - including "falling in love" - might be described as half-people who are trying to become whole, and trying to find happiness by getting married.

    Rebuilding - Alberti,Ph.D

    An "or else" ultimatum for marriage can't end well - in my humble opinion.  I do believe that while a lot of people get married for the wrong reasons there are those that have a "level" of communication that allows them to build and develop a loving relationship that ends with marriage. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Any woman who wants to get married but who stays w/ a man who doesn't propose for 5 years is an idiot.  Particularly if she never initiated a conversation about the relationship or goals during that 5  years before issuing an ultimatum.  There is nothing wrong w/ asking a man what his thoughts/intentions are re the relationship and determining if marriage is a possibility. If he says no, and she stays, she's an idiot.  If he doesn't know, she can make a determination re whether she wants to give it a little more time, and if he still doesn't propose, she can choose to leave. Or she can just propose to the guy herself if she really doesn't want ot wait. If he says no, there is the answer. But 'marry me or I'm leaving' is just dumb. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Jim_

    I had a relative that was an alcoholic.  His wife and kids gave him the ultimatum - stop drinking or get out!

    It worked!

    In the end I couldn't be prouder of him as a family member! The ultimatum was the brick upside the head he needed to correct his behavior.
    I love and miss him very much because of the man he became after overcoming his addiction.  He became a great example of a man who learned from his mistakes, and went on to become a better person from it all.

    And yes I know, it could have gone the other way too. He could have chosen the bottle over family and the outcome would not have been so happy!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Well...  I'm gonna quibble with this a bit. ;) Who decided that the "natural" progression of a relationship ends at marriage?  Marriage is a completely un natural construct. I get that general society has come to expect that a relationship should culminate in marriage but that's far from natural.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton

    Respectfully, though, the question was posed, "Can, 'Marry me or else?' work," and that assumes that at least one party in the relationship wants to get married.  And, if neither of them want to marry there would be no reason for either of them to issue such an ultimatum.  If only one of them wants to marry, the ultimatum is ridiculous because it will either cause someone to choose to get married who doesn't want to, or will end the relationship which can be done without issuing the ultimatum at all.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Respectfully, though, the question was posed, "Can, 'Marry me or else?' work," and that assumes that at least one party in the relationship wants to get married.  And, if neither of them want to marry there would be no reason for either of them to issue such an ultimatum.  If only one of them wants to marry, the ultimatum is ridiculous because it will either cause someone to choose to get married who doesn't want to, or will end the relationship which can be done without issuing the ultimatum at all.
    Posted by kargiver


    Hello Kar,

    I was speaking "in general" versus "marry me or else".....Just curious, when is the "right time" to issue an ultimatum in a relationship between a single man and a single woman?

    Marriage? moving in? doing it my way or else? getting what you want and not willing to compromise?

    Do ultimatums have any place in a relationship? Curious as to your opinion and gender - do guys use ultimatums more than women? vice versa?

    I agree with you 100% Kar regarding marriage, the last woman I was with gave me TWO ultimatums - move in with me AND marry me. That ended with her cheating on me with two other guys - lol. There is no place for an ultimatum regarding marriage, and if one is issued and excepted..........what is it they say 50% of all first marriages end in divorce? Anyone wonder why?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Hi, Roger,

    I accepted your request this morning, thanks!

    I'm sorry, I somehow got on the "marry me or else" tangent from this...that's awful about how your situation turned out - what a you know what she was!

    Anyway, I think an ultimatum is the most passive way to cause change there is.  Instead of just leaving a relationship that isn't working, the one who should do the leaving issues an ultimatum instead.  And, if it works such that the person who's had the choice thrust on them chooses the thing that the passive ultimatum issuer secretly doesn't want there's a problem for both of them.  The person who issued the ultimatum is secretly saying, "Oh, no, they did it."  And, the person who caved is saying, "I caved.  Darn it...now, what."

    Personality wise (societially encouraged?  nature?  who knows why?) women are more passive people than men.  Passive at work getting paid less and promoted less, passive in relationships not getting their needs met because they don't speak up about them, etc.  So, does it stand to reason that women would be more likely to use the utlimate passive tactic, the ultimatum?  I'm guessing so.  But, there are plenty of passive guys out there, too.

    But, there are exceptions to the utlimatum being all passive.  Your alcoholic family member's turn around because of their "straighten up or get out!" ultimatum is one of them.  My telling BIL, "Respect me like humans deserve or you don't get to have a relationship at all with me," doesn't strke me as passive.  He continued his shenanigans, I cut off our relationship.  I couldn't be happier that he's "gone."  I put up with him 3 years as I tried to teach him to be respectful.  When it became clear that was not going to happen...

    I don't know if your questions can be answered to your satisfaction...at least I've done the best I can, and this is all I've got - a contradictory, confusing, blah, blah, blah of thoughts. :)
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Again, it's about age, goals and moving along a path in life and I totally agree that a 'marry me or else' not good.  If it has gotten to this point, then the relationship has reached its limits - simple as that - an ultimate end.  That in itself is an "unspoken" ultimatum.  Life plays out like this all the time - we make decisions of finality based on "unspoken" ultimatums when a proposition is rejected or goals aren't being met.   Clearly, she could have done it nicer and proposed to him....he could have said "no" and move on from there.  In my mind I can't help but wonder why she didn't. Try to understand where she may be coming from and the emotions behind her ultimatum.  No matter what she does, she loses him.  She needs to leave and she knows it but instead of a sweet proposal she throws out what turns out to be a misguided lifeline to save the relationship.  Why did she do this?  I can't help but wonder. Again, age and goals are major considerations.  It would be foolish for any person to continue in a relationship once the path becomes clear.  Has this guy strung her along and made promises in the past?  He doesn't say.  She's obviously reached a point where she feels deep down that she has to do something.  What can she do other than take control (by leaving) over her own emotions/life and not be someone else's ' girlfriend until whenever ' simply because he knows that she will stick around because she loves him.  But, emotions get the best of us at times and sometimes instead of bracing ourselves for the inevitable, we do and say dumb things like 'marry me or else'.  Anyone who believes they go along in life without giving or receiving ultimatums is in denial.  "The decision to cruise along without marrying has been made (by one of them) long ago, and the other doesn't realize it."  If this is the case, then perhaps our man here is being selfish by maintaining his grip on her IF it was obvious what she wanted. His power is her love for him believing she won't leave.  He knows he can drag this relationship on without any commitment until it no longer works for him.   A cousin of mine is an awesome 'forever bachelor' in his 30's.  Often times women think they will be able to change that despite his telling them from the beginning that he never intends to marry.  I feel a little sorry for the ones who believe they will ultimately change his mind.  After "cruising" along, more often than not, the girl begins talking about marriage.  This is where he ends it no matter how he feels about her.  He said to me once, 'why should I hold her back'.  He could be selfish and build on their hopes as they fall in love and stay with him for as long as it takes.  He's a great guy and I don't blame any of them for hoping.  I give him loads of credit for respecting these gals enough to let them go when they begin wanting or demanding more.  Relationships only work when both parties are equally invested, share values, passion, interests and goals. 
    Posted by KayRox

    I think that if marriage and children are a goal, with a deadline, this must be discussed early in the relationship so that the expectations are known and ultimatums won't be necessary.

    and how about instead of issuing an ultimatum, the woman simply proposes and gets her answer that way? how's that for taking control?


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    A proposal is a sort of ultimatum no matter who does the asking, though, isn't it?  It's saying, "Take this relationship to marriage, or it's over," although, that has to be the most unromantic way of thinking about it EVER.  LOL!

    ETA:  I'm assuming most people break up if a proposal is turned down, but maybe not?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    A proposal is a sort of ultimatum no matter who does the asking, though, isn't it?  It's saying, "Take this relationship to marriage, or it's over," although, that has to be the most unromantic way of thinking about it EVER.  LOL! ETA:  I'm assuming most people break up if a proposal is turned down, but maybe not?
    Posted by kargiver


    well, yes, but "will you marry me?" sounds a lot better than "you'd better ask me to marry you or I'm leaving!"
     
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    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : well, yes, but "will you marry me?" sounds a lot better than "you'd better ask me to marry you or I'm leaving!"
    Posted by pinkkittie27

    Indeed, it does!

    RT, this is a great discussion, thanks for asking the question.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Kayrox wrote: "Again, it's about age, goals and moving along a path in life and I totally agree that a 'marry me or else' not good."

    With respect for your opinion, I tend to think it's more about adult communication than age & goals. 

    I told a woman on the first date - "I'm never getting married again and that my kids come first!" - to which she replied "I don't need a piece of paper [marriage license] to validate my relationship and my kid's come first too!"


    So, based on her comments, we moved forward. Three and a half years later.
    I get the "move in with me and marry me" ultimatum followed up with "you don't want the same things as me."

    I had reiterated over those 3+ years, my position on marriage a number of times but, obviously she chose not to hear me. I believe the reality of my situation was that she said what she thought I wanted to hear and figured she could change me and my position on marriage.  She wanted to get married for the wrong reasons - her fear of being alone and her need to be parented by another.

    I thought every post here would say 1 of 2 things:

    Ultimatums should only be used to confront someone with a drug or alcohol problem or putting themselves and others in harms way.

    or

    There is no place for ultimatums in a relationship period.

    Thank you for your responses!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    I told a woman on the first date - "I'm never getting married again and that my kids come first!" - to which she replied "I don't need a piece of paper [marriage license] to validate my relationship and my kid's come first too!" So, based on her comments, we moved forward. Three and a half years later. I get the "move in with me and marry me" ultimatum followed up with "you don't want the same things as me." I had reiterated over those 3+ years, my position on marriage a number of times but, obviously she chose not to hear me.
    Posted by RogerTaylor



    Well, I've been down this road myself and I *think* there may be a few things at play here.  The first being that she told you that she didn't *need* marriage, not that she didn't *want* marriage.  At the time you had the discussion initial the distiction may have been trivial but... 

    If your relationship went anything along the same lines as mine did (and it sounds like it started in about the same way...), the social pressure tends to increase on the woman to marry as time goes on.  Her friends, relatives, co-workers, etc... all start asking "Hey, you've been seeing whatshisname for X years now.  Why no ring?  When are you going to tie the knot?"  After seeing their friends marry and having everyone stare at their hand looking for that elusive ring, they start wondering "Why am I not good enough to marry?" and that *want* comes closer to becoming a *need* just to meet the social expectations of those outside of the actual relationship.

    In my case, she became so irritated at being asked why we weren't married that she pretty much seperated herself from anyone that might ask about it.  That, in turn, ended in hostility directed toward me for "causing" the problem and her own isolation.

    In teh long run, I don't think she ignored you or chose not to listen. I think the social implications of being in a long term relationship without marrying are very different for men than they are for women and that causes the *need* to bubble to the top after a while.  In my case, I was never asked about it by men.  Women on the other hand, brought up the question fairly often. And I know she was pestered about it a whole lot more than I ever was too.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Ultimatums have no real place in a personal relationship..I would never ask a person for more than they are willing to give..and it would be up to me to decide whether or not I can live with that in a relationship. I could not imagine saying to someone you must marry me..or we must live together..or else...I make it a policy never to issue ultimatums. I also don't respond well to them either..
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Wise analysis, Jim.  At the same time, though, people do tell each other what they want to hear sometimes to get to the next date, and, women, especially, hope and believe they can change the guy's mind over time so "what would be the harm?"  Sometimes both explanations can be true for the same woman in the same relationship.

    Miscricket, how you do respond to my assertion that a marriage proposal is a very romantic, socially accepted ultimatum given that if the answer is no, the relationship is over?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Any woman who wants to get married but who stays w/ a man who doesn't propose for 5 years is an idiot.  Particularly if she never initiated a conversation about the relationship or goals during that 5  years before issuing an ultimatum.  There is nothing wrong w/ asking a man what his thoughts/intentions are re the relationship and determining if marriage is a possibility. If he says no, and she stays, she's an idiot.  If he doesn't know, she can make a determination re whether she wants to give it a little more time, and if he still doesn't propose, she can choose to leave. Or she can just propose to the guy herself if she really doesn't want ot wait. If he says no, there is the answer. But 'marry me or I'm leaving' is just dumb. 
    Posted by ALF72


    If she really wanted to get married then she should propose to HIM. This is the 21st century after all! No waiting around for the man to do it is required. Aren't women supposed to be equal? Or is that only when they feel like it?

    However a proposal in itself is the ultimate ultimatum. If the partner says "no" then its basically the end of the relationship. I know absolutely nobody still together after the big question was asked and rejected. 
    I am 100% with Kar on that one.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    UUUGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

    Kar - that's my next discussion question!

    Wise analysis, Jim. At the same time, though, people do tell each other what they want to hear sometimes to get to the next date, and, women, especially, hope and believe they can change the guy's mind over time so "what would be the harm?" Sometimes both explanations can be true for the same woman in the same relationship.

    Why do women think they can "change the guy's mind?".....uuggghh

    I'm not Play-Doh!

    You would have an easier time getting me to change the color of my skin before you could change my mind about a topic like marriage - and I'm up front about that too! I don't bait women with what "I think" they want to hear - why would I? It's dumb! and I never "think" I can change her mind or her!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : If she really wanted to get married then she should propose to HIM . This is the 21st century after all! No waiting around for the man to do it is required. Aren't women supposed to be equal? Or is that only when they feel like it? However a proposal in itself is the ultimate ultimatum . If the partner says "no" then its basically the end of the relationship. I know absolutely nobody still together after the big question was asked and rejected.  I am 100% with Kar on that one.
    Posted by plasko


    If you read the third to the last line of my post, I say just that: she can propose to him. 
     
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    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    UUUGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!! Kar - that's my next discussion question! Wise analysis, Jim. At the same time, though, people do tell each other what they want to hear sometimes to get to the next date, and, women, especially, hope and believe they can change the guy's mind over time so "what would be the harm?" Sometimes both explanations can be true for the same woman in the same relationship. Why do women think they can "change the guy's mind?".....uuggghh I'm not Play-Doh! You would have an easier time getting me to change the color of my skin before you could change my mind about a topic like marriage - and I'm up front about that too! I don't bait women with what "I think" they want to hear - why would I? It's dumb! and I never "think" I can change her mind or her!
    Posted by RogerTaylor


    To be fair though the sayings "No man is an island" or "you lay down with dogs, you're gonna get fleas" spring to mind. 
    Just being around people does change your mind about certain topics. Being around specific people like partners will change you even more. For one thing they will open up new experiences for you, make you try things you never would have before. That is no bad thing. Then there are gifts. If a girlfriend does not like what you wear guess what you will be getting for Xmas and birthdays - clothes she prefers you in, much the same as when you get her lingerie, no doubt. 
    Or little comments like "oh you aren't wearing that to this dinner are you?" and you feel guilty and change your outfit. Or perhaps pizza night is replaced with salad night because she worries about your health etc (read: you are getting fat). Or "Oh, why don't you put that toilet seat down" (like it would harm her to spend 2 secs to do it herself. Of course the appropriate answer would be "oh, why don't you ever put that toilet seat back up"). 
    Little by little you do "erode" each other towards your preferences. 
    People are more plyable than you might think, unless its a topic on which they feel extremely strongly about. Even then.....

    Change is not always a bad thing. Equally though seeing someone as a canvas on which to create an entirely different being is a little too much. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : If you read the third to the last line of my post, I say just that: she can propose to him. 
    Posted by ALF72


    "marry me or I'm leaving" has to be the shi++est proposal on record! Laughing
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : To be fair though the sayings "No man is an island" or "you lay down with dogs, you're gonna get fleas" spring to mind.  Just being around people does change your mind about certain topics. Being around specific people like partners will change you even more. For one thing they will open up new experiences for you, make you try things you never would have before. That is no bad thing. Then there are gifts. If a girlfriend does not like what you wear guess what you will be getting for Xmas and birthdays - clothes she prefers you in, much the same as when you get her lingerie, no doubt.  Or little comments like "oh you aren't wearing that to this dinner are you?" and you feel guilty and change your outfit. Or perhaps pizza night is replaced with salad night because she worries about your health etc (read: you are getting fat). Or "Oh, why don't you put that toilet seat down" (like it would harm her to spend 2 secs to do it herself. Of course the appropriate answer would be "oh, why don't you  ever put that toilet seat back up").  Little by little you do "erode" each other towards your preferences.  People are more plyable than you might think, unless its a topic on which they feel extremely strongly about. Even then..... Change is not always a bad thing. Equally though seeing someone as a canvas on which to create an entirely different being is a little too much. 
    Posted by plasko



    One of my favorite books - Who Moved My Cheese?"...it's all about change!

    My wardrobe, sure I would "change" it for her no problem! little to no consequences.

    My position towards marriage, abortion, sex, politics and religion.....not a chance!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Who Moved My Cheese is a good book.

    A marriage proposal is an ultimatum no matter if the man or the woman asks; the result is the same.  The ultimatum is agreed to and they get married or it isn't, and they break up.

    People are who they are.  Women tend to not be able to accept this until they've failed at least once to change a man they made the mistake of falling in love with under the illusion they could change them.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Who Moved My Cheese is a good book. A marriage proposal is an ultimatum no matter if the man or the woman asks; the result is the same.  The ultimatum is agreed to and they get married or it isn't, and they break up. People are who they are.  Women tend to not be able to accept this until they've failed at least once to change a man they made the mistake of falling in love with under the illusion they could change them.
    Posted by kargiver


    Yeah but, Why do women "think" they can change a guy in the first place?
    "Little" stuff - seat down, no P-ing in the shower, no cigars in the house - fine no problem. Something BIG like marriage? How could you/women think you could change a guys mind?

    Note: those are just examples of "little" stuff NOT what I do.....lol Wink
     
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