Ultimatums

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Yeah but, Why do women "think" they can change a guy in the first place? "Little" stuff - seat down, no P-ing in the shower, no cigars in the house - fine no problem. Something BIG like marriage? How could you/women think you could change a guys mind? Note: those are just examples of "little" stuff NOT what I do.....lol
    Posted by RogerTaylor[/QUOTE]


    Pffft!  Everyone klnows the answer to that!  Wimmins be EVIL!!  :D
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ALF72. Show ALF72's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ultimatums : "marry me or I'm leaving" has to be the shi++est proposal on record! 
    Posted by plasko[/QUOTE]

    Well, yeah.  I didn't say that though; Pink did.  And she also said a proposal, a real proposal, would sound a lot better than 'marry me or I'm leaving'. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]Wise analysis, Jim.  At the same time, though, people do tell each other what they want to hear sometimes to get to the next date, and, women, especially, hope and believe they can change the guy's mind over time so "what would be the harm?"  Sometimes both explanations can be true for the same woman in the same relationship. Miscricket, how you do respond to my assertion that a marriage proposal is a very romantic, socially accepted ultimatum given that if the answer is no, the relationship is over?
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]


    Hi Kar..that is a tough one. The romantic in me..for sure..would hate to think of it as an ultimatum but I guess it could be one of sorts. I guess this falls into the category of something I feel a couple should be on the same page with regards to feelings about marriage. I really have no desire to marry again...and that is something that would be discussed I would hope..when the time was right in any relationship. I guess I would like to think anyone I would be involved with would not blindside me with a proposal without knowing my feelings.Funny..I know a couple that lived together for 18 years..owned a house together and only got married because of health insurance coverage.  Neither one of them needed marriage..but one of them needed health insurance..
    By the way..does a relationship always have to end if one person says no to marriage?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Yes, the couple should be on the same page before the proposal is made.  So, does that mean it's only an ultimatum if the one doing the proposal KNOWS the other doesn't want to get married, but doesn't want to break up, either, thereby forcing the wedding?  If both people know beforehand that if there's a proposal it will be accepted, I guess it's really not an ultimatum, it's a romantic formality.

    I think that's my position, now.  It's only an ultimatum IF the one doing the proposing knows that the answer might be no and he/she hopes by forcing it the choice to marry will be made under some duress.  Great.

    I'm sure there are exceptions, but I believe that if a marriage proposal is rejected, there's no unringing that bell.  It's out there, now, that one wants marriage and the other doesn't.  Where do they go from there?  Imo, they can break up that day or drag out the distancing and falling apart of the relationship over time. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Pffft!  Everyone klnows the answer to that!  Wimmins be EVIL!!  :D
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton[/QUOTE]

    Oh no you didn't!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    women think they can change men because the vast majority of literature, movies and other romantic stories they are exposed to have been asserting it as possibility for years. See: Beauty and the Beast, most of Shakespeare's comedies.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Another reason, more basic to our nature, is that women are nurturers and child rearers.  The whole idea of rearing a child is to teach the child to change from an immature, self centered being to a mature, friendly, and peace loving adult.  It's in a woman's nature to NEED to succeed at this transformation.  And, the transfer the ability to do that for children (maybe subconsciously) to the ability to do it for men they love.  They think they can nuture and teach them to have the qualities they want in a lover.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]Another reason, more basic to our nature, is that women are nurturers and child rearers.  The whole idea of rearing a child is to teach the child to change from an immature, self centered being to a mature, friendly, and peace loving adult.  It's in a woman's nature to NEED to succeed at this transformation.  And, the transfer the ability to do that for children (maybe subconsciously) to the ability to do it for men they love.  They think they can nuture and teach them to have the qualities they want in a lover.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    but I also think that society also expects women to be nurturers, and to put the needs of others in front of their own needs. This is a big reason why women stay in unfulfilling relationships and do not push for what they want. There's also the stigma that a woman who can't inspire that kind of change in their partner is some kind of failure.

    I think it's very hard to separate imparted gender roles from natural instincts here. Little girls are given dolls and stuffed animals to take care of. Little boys are given cars and action figures to fight with. There's a strong message sent about "you're supposed to nurture" from very early on. And I think it has a lot of unintended consequences. If your whole life becomes about taking care of other people, you're going to neglect your own needs and wants, and resentment and depression can set in.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    All true.  But, whatever the cause (nature vs nurture and whatever balance that might be that could be different woman to woman), women are the more nurturing of the two genders.  And, the bulk of child rearing does fall on the woman even today.  Whether because of nature or nurture, I think it goes a long way toward explaining why women can think they can change men for the better.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]Yes, the couple should be on the same page before the proposal is made.  So, does that mean it's only an ultimatum if the one doing the proposal KNOWS the other doesn't want to get married, but doesn't want to break up, either, thereby forcing the wedding? .... It's only an ultimatum IF the one doing the proposing knows that the answer might be no and he/she hopes by forcing it the choice to marry will be made under some duress.  
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    This is exactly why I am completely against proposals in public (e.g. ballgames), this increases the "peer pressure" to say yes. You got the balls to kick a guy in the head in front of 10,000 people? A lot of not-so-strong-willed women don't.  
    This happened to a friend of mine whose boyfriend proposed to her at a party in front of a hundred people they knew. He grabbed the mike and went on one knee and asked her. She said you could have heard a pin drop when she said "no, I wouldn't even consider marriage till I am 35" (she was 25 at the time). Guess who was the bi+ch for the remainder of that party! :)
    And yeah, they broke up soon after that (she had already informed him previously she was way too young to marry). You go girl!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    What a good case for my point, thanks, Plasko!  Yup, she had essentially told him, "If you ask before I'm 35 I'll say, 'no,'" and he chose to give her an ultimatum instead to try to force her to marry him earlier than that and even ADDED to the duress by doing it in front of all their friends.  Dumb mistake.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]What a good case for my point, thanks, Plasko!  Yup, she had essentially told him, "If you ask before I'm 35 I'll say, 'no,'" and he chose to give her an ultimatum instead to try to force her to marry him earlier than that and even ADDED to the duress by doing it in front of all their friends.  Dumb mistake.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    If she said  "If you ask before I'm 35 I'll say, 'no,'" isn't that an ultimatum to begin with? 

    An ultimatum met with an ultimatum... *head spins*  Tongue out
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    I don't think that qualifies.  She was being direct with her goal of not marrying until she's 35.  How else would he know?  I don't think she was thinking, "If you ask me before then I'll walk out of the relationship."  Instead, I think she was hoping that if he knew she didn't want to get married before 35 he wouldn't ask.

    But, I suppose any requirement is an ultimatum; that's what makes it a requirement and not a request.  She had a need, and she made it known.  He could take it or leave it, and he chose to ignore it to the peril of the relationship, as she'd warned would happen in so many words.

    So, I guess I'm rambling with no definitive answer again, forgive me. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    lol  Just my view but if things are put in an "If you... then I'll..."  statement knowing that both choices are probably undesireable to the other person, then it's an ultimatum. (Something like "If you'll cook dinner, I'll wash the dishes." is an offer instead of an ultimatum.) 

    How else would he know?  She could just say "I'm not interested in getting married until I'm at least 35."  No retribution, no demand/expectation of him doing anything other than just absorbing the information.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    I don't think she issued an "if you, I'll..." ultimatum at all.  He did.  As fas as we know, she did say it exactly the way you put it, "I don't want to get married before I'm 35."  He took that idea and said, I'll fix her and issued the ultimatum of a marriage proposal that flew in the face of the information she gave him.  So, it wasn't a "same page" marriage proposal (non-ultimatum type), it was an ultimatum, "Give up your [ludicrous] 10 year restriction and marry me, or else."  She picked "else."  I don't think she had much to do with the debacle IF she did, in fact, make her need to wait very clear in a non-threatening way.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    I agree here generally that ultimatums have no place in a relationship.  The exception being as Jim-In-Littleton has pointed out for certain grave situations such as substance abuse.
    RT, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes, but let me ask something a bit different:  what's the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum?
    For example, your SO tells you "If you ever sleep with anyone else while with me, I'm outta here".  I think most people would argue that's a boundary.  But isn't it also an ultimatum?
    Is a boundary based on self-respect, while an ultimatum is about control and personal desires?
    Or is a boundary essentially an ultimatum that would apply to a possible future state, while an ultimatum applies to the actual current state?

    And just so you ladies know:  committing intentional grounding to get what you want is NEVER a good idea.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    That's exactly what I've been thinking, cb - that boundaries are ultimatums in disguise.  Otherwise, they are not actual boundaries, they are suggestions.

    This is such an interesting discussion!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Kar--yes, interesting.
    But I still think that there is a distinction somewhere.
    One could consider that boundaries essentially establish the ground rules for the game.  Trying to change those later essentially becomes an ultimatum.
    However, I believe this is not completley accurate.  I still think that there is some distinction here.  Take for example someone whose "boundary", stated up front, is that they won't date anyone more than 2 years without a marriage proposal.  I tend to doubt that most people would consider that a legitimate "boundary", more like an upfront ultimatum.
    I'm tending to lean toward boundaries dealing with self-respect.  And even there I think there is a very fine line between self-respect and selfishness.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Maybe the answer is more grey than anyone here seems to feel comfortable with.  I know I'm a black and white kinda gal which has led me to discuss this in circles, like I'm chasing my tail, probably sounding ridiculous.

    A boundary is a boundary unless someone defines it as unreasonable or it is a surprise change?  But, what is "unreasonable," and what should prevent us from growing and changing and requiring different things (which could be stated as, "setting different boundaries") for our lives?  

    It might be a matter of how literal we define an ultimatum if we categorize all boundaries as such.  If an ultimatum is one only if the exact words, "Do this or else," are uttered than a boundary is not an ultimatum, but it seems to me that an immovable boundary is just that.  Stay within the boundary "or else."  

    But, boundaries allow society and relationships within society to function smoothly.  We'd certainly not think (in regular converstation) to call them ultimatums because those are looked at in a much darker light.  So, something must distinguish one from the other, but darned if I can put my finger on exactly what it is.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    There is another girl I know whose boundaries have changed. 
    Her and her boyfriend decided at the start of their relationship that neither wanted kids. Fast-forward several years in and now she is desperate to have children (some inner switch must have been flipped). He says "hold on honey, we agreed no kids, I don't want kids ever. Period."
    So now she can either set the ultimatum and lose him, based on her changing the "relationship ground-rule boundaries", or she can bite her tongue and hate him for not giving her the thing she most desires in the world. 
    Either way she wont be happy. Catch 22.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    Plasko--Biological Clock Violations are particularly problematic.
    I've seen this happen before as well.  I'm sure you've heard it said "If you don't grow together, you will surely grow apart." Changing the rules after the game starts can be done, but it takes both sides agreeing to the change.  Otherwise, if it's important, it's pretty much game over.
    I am intrigued by the idea that they "decided" they didn't want to have kids.  I realize you were not there, but is that the way this "girl" described it?  I realize I am picking on one word here, but that makes it sound to me like there was a discussion where some kind of compromise was reached--as in, he said "no kids", and she said "well, OK, I guess I can live with that".  That's very different from each person entering the relationship feeling that they did not want kids.

    But this is really now her personal choice. Does she want to be with him more than she wants kids?  Doesn't sound like she can have both.  As for her not being happy either way, I think that is true only in the short run.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]Plasko--Biological Clock Violations are particularly problematic. I've seen this happen before as well.  I'm sure you've heard it said "If you don't grow together, you will surely grow apart." Changing the rules after the game starts can be done, but it takes both sides agreeing to the change.  Otherwise, if it's important, it's pretty much game over. I am intrigued by the idea that they "decided" they didn't want to have kids.  I realize you were not there, but is that the way this "girl" described it?  I realize I am picking on one word here, but that makes it sound to me like there was a discussion where some kind of compromise was reached--as in, he said "no kids", and she said "well, OK, I guess I can live with that".  That's very different from each person entering the relationship feeling that they did not want kids. But this is really now her personal choice. Does she want to be with him more than she wants kids?  Doesn't sound like she can have both.  As for her not being happy either way, I think that is true only in the short run.
    Posted by cb156[/QUOTE]

    Yeah it was definitely stated by both of them at the start. She actually did not like kids at all (its a big part of her job working with children so being around them all the time put her off for life or so she thought until recently when looking after a baby) so if I remember rightly it was her idea never to have kids and he said "good, I don't want them either". Done deal. 
    I figure they can do what other people in this situation do and get a dog as a surrogate. People really do baby their pets in a most amusing way! Its sad to watch from the outside but no doubt feels good when you are the pet owner. 


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]I agree here generally that ultimatums have no place in a relationship.  The exception being as Jim-In-Littleton has pointed out for certain grave situations such as substance abuse. RT, sorry if I'm stepping on your toes, but let me ask something a bit different:  what's the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum? For example, your SO tells you "If you ever sleep with anyone else while with me, I'm outta here".  I think most people would argue that's a boundary.  But isn't it also an ultimatum? Is a boundary based on self-respect, while an ultimatum is about control and personal desires? Or is a boundary essentially an ultimatum that would apply to a possible future state, while an ultimatum applies to the actual current state? And just so you ladies know:  committing intentional grounding to get what you want is NEVER a good idea.
    Posted by cb156[/QUOTE]

    Great post! I consider myself black and white at times. To answer your question ultimatum versus boundary are one in the same - marriage creates a boundary right? Once you say I do sleeping with the neighbors wife is a no-no correct? but it will also - in most cases - end the marriage too. Much like an ultimatum - if you sleep with our neighbors wife our marriage is over! - same end result in my example.

    I view a "boundary" and an "ultimatum" like a "lie" and lying by omission" they are one in the same....potato....potatoe.....tomato....to MA toe...Wink
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    I have to respectfully disagree with those who say a boundary and an ultimatum are the same thing. To me..they are not even close. To use the example of a married couple.and one person cheats..thus ending the relationship. Saying..you cheated..now the relationship is over is not an ultimatum...and especially if you look at marriage as a sort of contract ( in the emotional sense..not the legal sense). When two people get married..they are essentially both agreeing to a set of boundaries designed to protect the relationship. Breaking one of those boundaries should rightfully result in consequences..in the case of a cheating spouse the consequence is ending the marriage ( contract).  There is no ultimatum in this case because both parties..by saying "I do" have agreed willingly to respect and nurture the relationship.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    [QUOTE]I have to respectfully disagree with those who say a boundary and an ultimatum are the same thing. To me..they are not even close. To use the example of a married couple.and one person cheats..thus ending the relationship. Saying..you cheated..now the relationship is over is not an ultimatum...and especially if you look at marriage as a sort of contract ( in the emotional sense..not the legal sense). When two people get married..they are essentially both agreeing to a set of boundaries designed to protect the relationship. Breaking one of those boundaries should rightfully result in consequences..in the case of a cheating spouse the consequence is ending the marriage ( contract).  There is no ultimatum in this case because both parties..by saying "I do" have agreed willingly to respect and nurture the relationship.
    Posted by miscricket[/QUOTE]

    And what about if someone cheats in a non-marriage situation? Surely the same "rules" still apply, even if no conversation ever arose about them. 
    This does remind me of yet someone else, in college, who was dating some guy (and sleeping with him, naturally). She bumped into him one night in a club and he was all over another girl. He said to her "Well so what, we never said we would be exclusive!". The girl, not used to such bizarre behavior, and clearly not expecting this blaze´ response was nonplussed by the whole scenario. She actually questioned herself at that point "well its true we never did". However, as I told her, the fact they were boyfriend+girlfriend itself indicated exclusivity. No words should have ever needed to have been said. What a wierd guy. 
    Ownership is an ugly word, but basically thats what 2 people in a relationship have over each other. That comes with some rights and rules automatically, no? They are pre-assumed and imposed by society. 
    Otherwise there would be a whole lot more swingers and multi-person-relationships (who says a relationship has to stop at 2 people?!) out there than there actually are, if everyone started each relationship by drawing up a whole set of fresh rules and boundaries from scratch. 




     
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