1. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 7:26 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Sorry, I disagree. If you will ...  I will ... is classic assertiveness. What makes it an ultimatum is if the 'I will' isn't an incentive, it's a power play. Power Plays always hurt relationships.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick


    CHC--
    Interesting.  I've been wondering about an example that would fit your statements above.  I admit I'm struggling with it.
    In thinking about it, what's the difference between an incentive and a power play?  Isn't that subjective, and probably determined by the person receiving the demand?
    For example, the classic "Marry me, or I'm leaving you."
    This could be either an ultimatum or assertiveness, depending on how the person receiving it understands it.
    "Don't marry me and I leave you" -- sounds like an ultimatum
    "Marry me and I stay with you" -- sounds like there's an incentive.

    Does it all depend on how the person receiving the demand comprehends it?
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 8:10 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : CHC-- Interesting.  I've been wondering about an example that would fit your statements above.  I admit I'm struggling with it. In thinking about it, what's the difference between an incentive and a power play?  Isn't that subjective, and probably determined by the person receiving the demand? For example, the classic "Marry me, or I'm leaving you." This could be either an ultimatum or assertiveness, depending on how the person receiving it understands it. "Don't marry me and I leave you" -- sounds like an ultimatum "Marry me and I stay with you" -- sounds like there's an incentive. Does it all depend on how the person receiving the demand comprehends it?
    Posted by cb156


    ..what and how something is said is open to interpretation unless the conversation begins with "Here's my ultimatum...." A person can say "marry me or we're done!" the person saying it could argue they said it as a "demand" versus the receiver who could interpret the statement as an ultimatum...poTAYtoe..poTAHto..toMAYto..toMAtoe...
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 8:22 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : CHC-- Interesting.  I've been wondering about an example that would fit your statements above.  I admit I'm struggling with it. In thinking about it, what's the difference between an incentive and a power play?  Isn't that subjective, and probably determined by the person receiving the demand? For example, the classic "Marry me, or I'm leaving you." This could be either an ultimatum or assertiveness, depending on how the person receiving it understands it. "Don't marry me and I leave you" -- sounds like an ultimatum "Marry me and I stay with you" -- sounds like there's an incentive. Does it all depend on how the person receiving the demand comprehends it?
    Posted by cb156
    Not at all.  It depends on if the person doing the "demanding" is nibling on your ear lobe.  And other such enticements.  :D

    Well, someone had to say it.  I'm surprised no one has said it sooner.  :)

    PS Agreed about nudging (and "nagging") -- if you know how to nudge sweetly, you'd be surprised how you can get another person to cooperate.  I feel like this entire discussion is about words, and not about how they are delivered.  Delivery seems to have been lost in this discussion (tone of voice, body language, etc.   ... :)
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 9:30 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Not at all.  It depends on if the person doing the "demanding" is nibling on your ear lobe.  And other such enticements.   :D Well, someone had to say it.  I'm surprised no one has said it sooner.  :) PS  Agreed about nudging (and "nagging") -- if you know how to nudge sweetly, you'd be surprised how you can get another person to cooperate.  I feel like this entire discussion is about words, and not about how they are delivered.  Delivery seems to have been lost in this discussion (tone of voice, body language, etc.   ... :)
    Posted by yogafriend



    Delivery seems to have been lost in this discussion (tone of voice, body language, etc. ...

    ...did you mean "interpretation?"
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 10:00 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Delivery seems to have been lost in this discussion (tone of voice, body language, etc. ... ...did you mean "interpreted?"
    Posted by RogerTaylor

    Nope.  I meant lost.  :)

    Or maybe it would be considered "foul play" in cb's rule book.  Not sure.  

    Just being a little facetious, perhaps.  But I did mean lost, not interpreted.  Just putting another spin on how people may achieve different results depending on the delivery, that's all ... 

     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 10:30 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Nope.  I meant lost.   :) Or maybe it would be considered "foul play" in cb's rule book.  Not sure.   Just being a little facetious, perhaps.  But I did mean lost, not interpreted.  Just putting another spin on how people may achieve different results depending on the delivery, that's all ... 
    Posted by yogafriend


    Its true, timing is especially important too. You don't want to make a demand of a woman at the wrong time of the month unless you'd like a broken nose. 
    Also there are plenty of people who withhold sex/sexual acts or use them as a bargaining chip - now that is just plain playing unfair! 

     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 12:53 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : Its true, timing is especially important too. You don't want to make a demand of a woman at the wrong time of the month unless you'd like a broken nose.  Also there are plenty of people who withhold sex/sexual acts or use them as a bargaining chip - now that is just plain playing unfair! 
    Posted by plasko


    Yeah, my ex used sex as a reward for a job well done based on her honey-do list..one of "many" reasons I pulled the trigger on the divorce...Oh yeah, and her "ultimatums" too....Laughing

    lesson learned........
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 1:54 PM EDT

    what ever happened to the fine art of "conversing"?

    It disappeared with the Millennials and Gen Y, and is slowly disappearing with Gen Jones and X.

    I loved that lifestyles story the other day about snail-mail. I still love to write and receive letters and cards (on paper).

    Yeah, my ex used sex as a reward for a job well done

    I can't even imagine doing such a thing to a partner. How cruel. And why be in a relationship if one is going to pull that carp? I would be horrified, mortified - and this doesn't even come from my strong submissive side. but from being a woman who feels sex is a joyous part of life. Do do otherwise would be to corrupt it.

     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 2:59 PM EDT

    Yoga--
    I would think that "delivery" is part of communication.

    There's a lot of important parts to that.

    what you say

    how you say it

    what I hear

    how I hear it


    The real key to communicating with others (whether it be your significant other, co-workers, friends, etc) is that you have some understanding of how they "hear" things, and that you deliver your messages in a way that what you really mean is what they really hear and understand.

    I think with a significant other, the understanding goes in both directions at the same time.  That is, you not only gain some understanding of how they will hear things, but also how they say things.

     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from plasko. Show plasko's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 5:21 PM EDT

    I do often wonder, since a lot of us think that proposals are veiled ultimatums, why the majority of people don't sit down together and decide to get married, much in the same way they would decide to buy a car, or get a dog, have a child etc. Why must there be a big pomp/surprise/romance crap that goes with it?
    Its no harder than deciding what to have for dinner. 
    e.g.
    "honey, do you think we should get married?"
    "Not really, while being legally advantageous its terribly expensive and a bit old fashioned"
    "Yeah, you are right. Should we have chicken for dinner......"
    No going down on one knee required! And the decision is made jointly by the couple and not enforced on anyone. This couple need not fall apart because there was no real rejection involved. Just an idea that was floated and decided against. 

     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 5:26 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    what ever happened to the fine art of "conversing"? It disappeared with the Millennials and Gen Y, and is slowly disappearing with Gen Jones and X. I loved that lifestyles story the other day about snail-mail. I still love to write and receive letters and cards (on paper). Yeah, my ex used sex as a reward for a job well done I can't even imagine doing such a thing to a partner. How cruel. And why be in a relationship if one is going to pull that carp? I would be horrified, mortified - and this doesn't even come from my strong submissive side. but from being a woman who feels sex is a joyous part of life. Do do otherwise would be to corrupt it.
    Posted by reindeergirl



    what ever happened to the fine art of "conversing"?
    It disappeared with the Millennials and Gen Y, and is slowly disappearing with Gen Jones and X.
    I loved that lifestyles story the other day about snail-mail. I still love to write and receive letters and cards (on paper)

    Your response regarding conversing and snail-mail...reminded me of my kid's coming into the kitchen one Sunday morning to tell me the television was broken...I went into the living room to check the TV that was on and showing the 3 Stooges...I said I thought you said the TV was broken? to which they replied "It is, there's no color!"....

    Is conversing and writing letters really disappearing????

    Ugghhh! I guess I'm getting old...
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 5:49 PM EDT

    The fawn is excellent at writing thank you notes. On paper. In the mailbox at the end of our street.

    Learning to write thank you notes was required in her elementary school curriculum.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 7:51 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    What makes it an ultimatum is if the 'I will' isn't an incentive, it's a power play.
    Posted by Corporate-Hippie-Chick


    *nods* I posted much the same back on page 4 and I think the act of forcing a choice between 2 undesirables is a key to being an ultimatum.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jim-in-Littleton. Show Jim-in-Littleton's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 8:01 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    I feel like this entire discussion is about words, and not about how they are delivered.  Delivery seems to have been lost in this discussion (tone of voice, body language, etc.   ... :)
    Posted by yogafriend


    That's a simple function of the media we are using for the discussion, no?  Unless someone creates a hypothetical scenario and *tells us* that there was a specific tone of voice, inflection, gesture, etc... readers are going to go with the idea that there isn't anything special about how it was delivered.   Once that sort of thing is added then you have to read in the sub-context and figure out if the words had some meaning other than their typical dictionary definitions.

    I'm not entirely sure if even that would turn an ultimatium into something else though. In most examples I can think of off the top of my head it would just make it an ultimatum that isn't delivered or taken seriously.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/7/2011 9:32 PM EDT

    I do often wonder, since a lot of us think that proposals are veiled ultimatums, why the majority of people don't sit down together and decide to get married, much in the same way they would decide to buy a car, or get a dog, have a child etc. Why must there be a big pomp/surprise/romance crap that goes with it?
    ====

    Crap? No. Pomp? No. Surprise, maybe. Romance? Yes. I'm all flowers and candy and all that jazz. My husband proposed to me on his knees, in the parking lot at Logan. (OK, so the marriage didn't last ... .)
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 8:04 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Yoga-- I would think that "delivery" is part of communication. There's a lot of important parts to that. what you say how you say it what I hear how I hear it The real key to communicating with others (whether it be your significant other, co-workers, friends, etc) is that you have some understanding of how they "hear" things, and that you deliver your messages in a way that what you really mean is what they really hear and understand.
    Posted by cb156
    CB: 
    Agreed.  What I was driving at (again, being a little facetious) was that no one had mentioned the idea that delivering a message could possibly be "heard" differently if you said it whilst being a little flirty, or being a little sexy, or being a little sweet ... and yes, when you understand, over time, how a person "hears" a message or how to make a message "take" -- you should employ the right means in order to be heard ... or potentially, to get someone to do what you want them to do.  You get more flies with honey.  That mentality.   

    That's what I meant when I wondered if you'd consider that foul play.   Know what I mean, sugar?   :D

     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 8:08 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums :I'm not entirely sure if even that would turn an ultimatium into something else though. In most examples I can think of off the top of my head it would just make it an ultimatum that isn't delivered or taken seriously.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton

    It wouldn't turn an ultimatum into something else, not at all.   It would, however, be a tactic, and it could work.   Or not.  

    You're pretty tough.   It probably would not work with you.    :)

     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from yogafriend. Show yogafriend's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 8:30 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
     Why must there be a big pomp/surprise/romance crap that goes with it? Its no harder than deciding what to have for dinner.  e.g. "honey, do you think we should get married?" "Not really, while being legally advantageous its terribly expensive and a bit old fashioned" "Yeah, you are right. Should we have chicken for dinner......" No going down on one knee required! And the decision is made jointly by the couple and not enforced on anyone. This couple need not fall apart because there was no real rejection involved. Just an idea that was floated and decided against. Posted by plasko
    Plasko: I am sure there are in actuality, many couples who do go down this practical discussion route.  Those aren't the stories you hear about, however.  My brother and his (now) wife basically "knew" they would get hitched after my SIL finished law school, and that's what they did.  No P&P whatsoever, no diamond.  Nothin.   Three kids and a bunch of cars and trucks later, they're just as happy as anyone who got a proposal at Fenway Park (cringe).  

    In any event, the chicken dinner comment cracked me up so hard, I just had to tell you!  Seriously, thanks.  Phew, totally howling here.  :D

     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from cb156. Show cb156's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 10:42 AM EDT

    Yoga--I understand what you are saying and agree, to a point.
    Whether it would be considered "foul play" I think would depend more on how you were trying to achieve your objective than on how you delivered the message.
    Offering some bedroom activity in exchange for getting what you want:  Intentional Grounding.
    Pushing your partner's "buttons" to make them do your bidding:  Unsportsmanlike Conduct.
    Being demeaning, treating your partner poorly or nagging the bejeepers out of them:  Unnecessary Roughness.

    Essentially, how you deliver the message or approach the issue has some bearing on your chances for success, but does not have anything to do with whether the issue carries an ultimatum, implicit or explicit.
    Kargiver (I think) has argued that a mature person would simply leave, without the ultimatum.  I would say that if the people involved are actually communicating, then each one understands the importance of the issue, and knows there is an ultimatum implicit in the discussion.
    So, you might approach it in a positive and encouraging way, but if your partner is really understanding you, that person knows there's an ultimatum sitting there. 
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from there-and-backagain. Show there-and-backagain's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 3:16 PM EDT

    A friend of mine got married when his girlfriend issued an ultimatum, and they have now been married for ten years.  They are unhappy, indeed, miserable, but they are married.
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from reindeergirl. Show reindeergirl's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 5:36 PM EDT

    My ex convinced me that the fawn would be considered a b*stard if we didn't marry before she was born. His belief countered every grain of mine about such matters.

    I considered that an ultimatum, but what the heck,  I was eight months preggers and wasn't thinking. I was in that crazed mode. We married. Less than two years later, we split.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 10:24 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    A friend of mine got married when his girlfriend issued an ultimatum, and they have now been married for ten years.  They are unhappy, indeed, miserable, but they are married.
    Posted by there-and-backagain



    Thanks for the laugh!

    I've been given the marriage ultimatum several times.....wrong way to treat me...gotta go!
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from RogerTaylor. Show RogerTaylor's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/8/2011 10:27 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    Yoga--I understand what you are saying and agree, to a point. Whether it would be considered "foul play" I think would depend more on how you were trying to achieve your objective than on how you delivered the message. Offering some bedroom activity in exchange for getting what you want:  Intentional Grounding. Pushing your partner's "buttons" to make them do your bidding:  Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Being demeaning, treating your partner poorly or nagging the bejeepers out of them:  Unnecessary Roughness. Essentially, how you deliver the message or approach the issue has some bearing on your chances for success, but does not have anything to do with whether the issue carries an ultimatum, implicit or explicit. Kargiver (I think) has argued that a mature person would simply leave, without the ultimatum.  I would say that if the people involved are actually communicating, then each one understands the importance of the issue, and knows there is an ultimatum implicit in the discussion. So, you might approach it in a positive and encouraging way, but if your partner is really understanding you, that person knows there's an ultimatum sitting there. 
    Posted by cb156



    Inflection, tone, cadence and delivery are all the elements of interpretation and the interpretation by the receiver "can" be an ultimatum.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Loud-Mouthed-Broad. Show Loud-Mouthed-Broad's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/9/2011 11:30 AM EDT

    In Response to Re: Ultimatums:
    In Response to Re: Ultimatums : CHC-- Interesting.  I've been wondering about an example that would fit your statements above.  I admit I'm struggling with it. In thinking about it, what's the difference between an incentive and a power play?  Isn't that subjective, and probably determined by the person receiving the demand? For example, the classic "Marry me, or I'm leaving you." This could be either an ultimatum or assertiveness, depending on how the person receiving it understands it. "Don't marry me and I leave you" -- sounds like an ultimatum "Marry me and I stay with you" -- sounds like there's an incentive. Does it all depend on how the person receiving the demand comprehends it?
    Posted by cb156


    An incentive is something that the other party wants.

    A bad example (because there is an imbalance of power between a parent and a child), but the best I can think of at the moment.

    If you do your homework after school, I WILL make brownies so you can have a treat when you are done.  If you don't do your homework after school, I will be forced to cancel your playdate on Saturday morning.

    In this example, there is a consequence to not doing what is wanted and a reward for doing what is wanted.

    An ultimatum:
    Do your homework after school or I'm throwing you out of the house.

    In this example, the parent outlines a consquence that is final and has a long lasting impact upon the relationship.

    So in thinking about this, I think the difference between assertiveness and ultimatum is the amount of force employed in the dialog.

    I think that when a topic like marriage is brought up in a relationship that has long been defined by other terms, it's often brought up with a lot of force because it's bubbling up from a place where social niceties are set aside.  The need to resolve the issue overpowers the fear of the outcome.
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Loud-Mouthed-Broad. Show Loud-Mouthed-Broad's posts

    Re: Ultimatums

    posted at 9/9/2011 12:13 PM EDT

    I think that if I was on the receiving end of an ultimatum that I didn't want to do, I'd have two choices:

    A - I'd leave

    B - I'd say 'I like that you are telling me how you feel.  What I don't like is that you are forcing me to do something that I don't want to do.  Can we talk about this please?  Why is this so important to you?'

    If you can shift the conversation away from 'I want' to 'Why' you can uncover what's behind the demand.   Be prepared to say a lot more than 'I don't want to get married'.  Be prepared to explain specifically what about marriage that is unattractive to you.