OT-How should I/we handle this?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Goodness1. Show Goodness1's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : Wow, I totally missed that. What does being scared of bugs or cats have anything to do with...well, anything?
    Posted by Peonie[/QUOTE]

    Totally ridiculous!!!  This is what Angel wrote he said.

    He then went on to talk about what he saw as my fear of bugs and cats. He commented how I need to stop being afraid of them as they evolve with us and I need to face the fact they will always be there. Gee thanks for the lessson Darwin
     
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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]See, we differ on this from a philisophical standpoint: what better venue to express your grief than at a funeral? The only way I could see it being disruptive was if it drowned out the person speaking. I think this a wrong way to think about grief: That someone doesn't have a right to be crying harder than someone else. They're expressing their grief differently. That's okay. It doesn't matter if it's in public. How can someone crying affect your ability to mourn? I hate to be sarcastic about it but: will someone crying not let you hear yourself be sad? If you're the one who needs quiet, shouldn't you be the one who mourns privately? When you're crying in grief, sometimes you don't want to be consoled, you just want to cry. You want to cry and cry and cry. Why should you have to hide yourself away or miss a funeral because of that? Isn't that the place to let your crying be heard? As long as you're not throwing yourself around on the ground or, as I said, drowning out the euology, then what's the issue? In many cultures, people grieve by paradin loudly down the street. Wailing, screaming, crying- this is done by the entire extended family. People in other cultures are more open about grief and emotions, in the US we act as though it's something to be whispered and be quiet about. Why? The immediate family members do not have some exclusive right to public grieving. Emotional constipation. Grieve openly with your entire family. That's the only way everyone can get those emotions out and feel relief, feel compassion, feel that you're not alone. Sitting stoically cannot accomplish that. In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, pink, but you are misunderstanding me.  I really don't think we are disagreeing that much.  I've experienced a lot of funerals.  I took care of children who were dying from AIDS and let's say--I've seen some interesting rituals and behaviors.

    I don't think anyone has an exclusive right to mourn more or less than anyone else.  Some people are more comfortable sobbing and bawling in public, others not so much, and it can be really uncomfortable when you someone who does not know how to comfort someone trying to console someone who really needs to sob when they are upset.   But I don't think the person should not sob inconsolably.  But I have seen some stuff where, you know, maybe the person does not intend to act inappropriately, but they are.

    I don't know what this OP did that so offended her father in law, but I was imagining a bit more than just crying a lot or sobbing inconsolably.  Again, I'm not saying she did anything!!  And Angel, I never meant to offend you.  I didn't mean to imply, if I did, that you did anything to try to get attention or that you were mourning in an inappropriate way.  I'm glad your husband talked to his father and hopefully you two can figure out how to figure this out.

    But a question--does your husband understand or agree with anything that your father is saying?

    And Fra, yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say!  I'm not saying the OP was that person we all know, just saying they exist!  Thanks!

    OK, now I'm done?
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : Totally ridiculous!!!  This is what Angel wrote he said. He then went on to talk about  what he saw as my fear of bugs and cats. He commented how I need to stop being afraid of them as they evolve with us and I need to face the fact they will always be there. Gee thanks for the lessson Darwin
    Posted by Goodness1[/QUOTE]

    LOL, way to bring up Darwinism...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Ok - you asked.

    I'm going to put words in Ash's mouth - forgive me if I'm way off.

    I think she is saying, when someone pulls you aside to quietly tell you they perceive an issue, it's because they do!  You may not have done what they perceive, but it still affected them that way.  So it is a good idea to take it into consideration and think it through.

    This is me talking - some people think it is their duty to tell others when they perceive a problem.  Those people are almost always wrong.  An awful lot of the advice I see on this boards starts with, "well you need to tell her...."   I often disagree. As I disagree with FIL in this case. Sometimes, it is best NOT to say everything you think.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I understadn what you are saying. You are saying you have been to services where you feel some people were grieving inappropriately.

    But that's where we differ. I do not think that any showing of grief- short of throwing yourself on the floor or drowning out the euology- can ever be inappropriate. Especially at a funeral or in the house of the grieving.
    If someone is sobbing uncontrollably, let them. They need to get it out. That's not inapproriate, especially whent he cause is the death of a 16-year-old family member. Even if you're crying harder than the mother- that's not inappropriate. The mother is expressing her grief differently, it doesn't make the way someone else shows theirs inappropriate. They're crying. They're not screaming out "I loved them the most! I am the saddest here!" They are expressing their grief by crying. If you read into their crying that it's an attempt o show that they cared the most or are the saddest- that is your assumption and your issue, not the one who is crying.

    While one might feel that someone else is grieving inappropirately, it is not one's place to voice that. What it should do is turn one's assumptions onto one's self. "Why do I feel like their grieving is inappropriate? Am I mad at myself for not crying? Do I feel like others do not understand my pain?" 

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : But I have seen some stuff where, you know, maybe the person does not intend to act inappropriately, but they are. I don't know what this OP did that so offended her father in law, but I was imagining a bit more than just crying a lot or sobbing inconsolably.  Posted by ash[/QUOTE]
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : Sorry, pink, but you are misunderstanding me.  I really don't think we are disagreeing that much.  I've experienced a lot of funerals.  I took care of children who were dying from AIDS and let's say--I've seen some interesting rituals and behaviors. I don't think anyone has an exclusive right to mourn more or less than anyone else.  Some people are more comfortable sobbing and bawling in public, others not so much, and it can be really uncomfortable when you someone who does not know how to comfort someone trying to console someone who really needs to sob when they are upset.   But I don't think the person should not sob inconsolably.  But I have seen some stuff where, you know, maybe the person does not intend to act inappropriately, but they are. I don't know what this OP did that so offended her father in law, but I was imagining a bit more than just crying a lot or sobbing inconsolably.  Again, I'm not saying she did anything!!  And Angel, I never meant to offend you.  I didn't mean to imply, if I did, that you did anything to try to get attention or that you were mourning in an inappropriate way.  I'm glad your husband talked to his father and hopefully you two can figure out how to figure this out. But a question--does your husband understand or agree with anything that your father is saying? And Fra, yes, that is exactly what I was trying to say!  I'm not saying the OP was that person we all know, just saying they exist!  Thanks! OK, now I'm done?
    Posted by ash[/QUOTE]

    He was not upset that I was crying at the services. It was everything else i mentioned.
     
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    [QUOTE]Ok - you asked. I'm going to put words in Ash's mouth - forgive me if I'm way off. I think she is saying, when someone pulls you aside to quietly tell you they perceive an issue, it's because they do!  You may not have done what they perceive, but it still affected them that way.  So it is a good idea to take it into consideration and think it through. This is me talking - some people think it is their duty to tell others when they perceive a problem.  Those people are almost always wrong.  An awful lot of the advice I see on this boards starts with, "well you need to tell her...."   I often disagree. As I disagree with FIL in this case. S ometimes, it is best NOT to say everything you think.
    Posted by downtoearth[/QUOTE]
    Thanks Aunt Beth, I was trying to say that.  I do think you need to keep your opinions to yourself and I;ve been saying that all along.  But if someone does tell you their opinion, you kind of have to consider what they are saying, even if they are mistaken.  I do think its important to understand where a person is coming from even if what they are saying is invalid and inappropriate.


    When I read Angel's update, I wondered this--Was the perceived wrong doing that a 16 year old went over and made sure a 30-something was ok. Perhaps they might think it would be the other way around? 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    But there's nothing wrong with that. Who cares if that's what they thought?
    30-year-olds aren't allowed to cry when the 16-year-olds aren't? They're just expressing their grief differently. Perhaps the 16-year-old saw someone feeling the same pain they felt and went to be with them.


    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : When I read Angel's update, I wondered this--Was the perceived wrong doing that a 16 year old went over and made sure a 30-something was ok. Perhaps they might think it would be the other way around? 
    Posted by ash[/QUOTE]
     
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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]I understadn what you are saying. You are saying you have been to services where you feel some people where grieving inappropriately. But that's where we differ. I do not think that any showing of grief- short of throwing yourself on the floor or drowning out the euology- can ever be inappropriate. Especially at a funeral or in the house of the grieving. If someone is sobbing uncontrollably, let them. They need to get it out. That's not inapproriate, especially whent he cause is the death of a 16-year-old family member. Even if you're crying harder than the mother- that's not inappropriate. The mother is expressing her grief differently, it doesn't make the way someone else shows theirs inappropriate. They're crying. They're not screaming out "I loved them the most! I am the saddest here!" They are expressing their grief by crying. If you read into their crying that it's an attempt o show that they cared the most or are the saddest- that is your assumption and your issue, not the one who is crying. In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    I do think people can grieve inappropriately--they act out in ways that mean the others can't mourn themselves.  It's not just my interpretation.  If you show up drunk at a wake or a shiva house, that's inappropriate, I don't care who you are.  I understand your grief, but that is simply not the way to handle it. 

    But that is not what I am talking about. Fra really summed it up better than I am saying in her post.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : He was not upset that I was crying at the services. It was everything else i mentioned.
    Posted by Angel525[/QUOTE]

    The fact is that he waited for the worst possible time to tell you all this. He is obviously immature. It's just ridiculous. His parents should be happy that their son is happy, and that is it. Period. The end.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from kargiver. Show kargiver's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    He perceived an issue, and he's certainly entitled to his opinions of her, but the issues he brought up were NOT behaviors aimed at him (aside from the leaving when he smokes, but what can ya do).  They were issues of her personality (grossly speaking) that he doesn't like.  Therefore, his list and delivery were totally out of line no matter where he was coming from or what his perceptions are.  Trying to understand why he hates those things about her from his perspective is a strange undertaking IMO.  She rubs him the wrong way by her very nature...not much she can do or even try to do about that so his tirade was a hurtful waste, not a potentially productive talk.  The only plus is now she knows exactly where she stands with him.  It's a sad state of affairs.

    And, this is not to say her nature is distasteful - but it obviously is to him, unfortunately.  So, that's too bad, really, but he should have kept it to himself and dealt with his son's choice of spouse in a mature, private manner.  It's WAY after the point of no return; they're married already, and there's no point in trying to change who she is.  Confrontation about behavior can pay off.  Confrontation about a person's nature cannot.

    That's why it hurt so darned much - he criticized her nature not her behavior.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from framerican51008. Show framerican51008's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I hear ya, Kar.  That kind of thing truly is SO hurtful.  They are the kinds of comments that change your relationships and that you cannot forget years later.
     
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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : He was not upset that I was crying at the services. It was everything else i mentioned.
    Posted by Angel525[/QUOTE]

    Which, in my opinion, was the worst mistake he made.  Pulling you aside to point out flaws, things you need to work on, people/things you need to pay attention to, and telling you you're immature for children... well, that was way out of line.  He was probably in a state where he figured he could get away with anything as he was the grieving grandparent and nothing he does at this point will be viewed as negative.  What his mistake was that his opinions/advice on your life, have no real weight.  How they affect him, I have no idea.  He was probably going through a slew of emotions and figured, "hey, might as well add another log on the fire" of all the issues that are surrounding him and the sadness in his family.

    You don't need to take that.  I'm still so sorry that it happened.
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    showing up to a funeral drunk is not grief, it's drowning your sorrows- getting drunk so that you can't feel your grief. Not the same and grieving.

    At any rate- what I am saying is that anyone making assumptions or judgements about how someone else is grieving is in the wrong. There's no defending it or understanding it, it has everything to do with the assumer and nothing to do with the person who is grieving. It shouldn't be tolerated, endorsed or understood.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : I do think people can grieve inappropriately--they act out in ways that mean the others can't mourn themselves.  It's not just my interpretation.  If you show up drunk at a wake or a shiva house, that's inappropriate, I don't care who you are.  I understand your grief, but that is simply not the way to handle it.  But that is not what I am talking about. Fra really summed it up better than I am saying in her post.
    Posted by ash[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I know there couldn't have been anything you did at the services that made him say those things to you. If that is the case, then he is a sick person who assumes the worst about people.
    I'm so sorry this happened to you. I can't imagine how confusing and shocking it must have been to be put in such a situation.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : He was not upset that I was crying at the services. It was everything else i mentioned.
    Posted by Angel525[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Exactly. Kar, you say everything so well.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]He perceived an issue, and he's certainly entitled to his opinions of her, but the issues he brought up were NOT behaviors aimed at him (aside from the leaving when he smokes, but what can ya do).  They were issues of her personality (grossly speaking) that he doesn't like.  Therefore, his list and delivery were totally out of line no matter where he was coming from or what his perceptions are .  Trying to understand why he hates those things about her from his perspective is a strange undertaking IMO.  She rubs him the wrong way by her very nature...not much she can do or even try to do about that so his tirade was a hurtful waste, not a potentially productive talk.  The only plus is now she knows exactly where she stands with him.  It's a sad state of affairs. And, this is not to say her nature is distasteful - but it obviously is to him, unfortunately.  So, that's too bad, really, but he should have kept it to himself and dealt with his son's choice of spouse in a mature, private manner.  It's WAY after the point of no return; they're married already, and there's no point in trying to change who she is .  Confrontation about behavior can pay off.  Confrontation about a person's nature cannot. That's why it hurt so darned much - he criticized her nature not her behavior.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]
     
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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]He perceived an issue, and he's certainly entitled to his opinions of her, but the issues he brought up were NOT behaviors aimed at him (aside from the leaving when he smokes, but what can ya do).  They were issues of her personality (grossly speaking) that he doesn't like.  Therefore, his list and delivery were totally out of line no matter where he was coming from or what his perceptions are .  Trying to understand why he hates those things about her from his perspective is a strange undertaking IMO.  She rubs him the wrong way by her very nature...not much she can do or even try to do about that so his tirade was a hurtful waste, not a potentially productive talk.  The only plus is now she knows exactly where she stands with him.  It's a sad state of affairs. And, this is not to say her nature is distasteful - but it obviously is to him, unfortunately.  So, that's too bad, really, but he should have kept it to himself and dealt with his son's choice of spouse in a mature, private manner.  It's WAY after the point of no return; they're married already, and there's no point in trying to change who she is .  Confrontation about behavior can pay off.  Confrontation about a person's nature cannot. That's why it hurt so darned much - he criticized her nature not her behavior.
    Posted by kargiver[/QUOTE]

    kar, I'm right there with you. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Sorry, but to assume someone's display of grief is just them putting on a show is just awful. When someone dies, you give anyone ANYONE who is grieving the benefit of the doubt.
    If you assume that they're doing it for attention, you are basing that assumption on the fact that you already do not like this person and you assume everything they do is for attention. That doesn't make you right or give you any right to say anything to that person. It's wrong for you to say something because you could be very, very, wrong.

    That is exactly the point here. Sometimes our assumptions about people are dead wrong. So, maybe we should not assume.

    That is what I am saying.

    Some of you say there are people out there who would fake a dispaly of extreme grief for attention. Who are you to say their grief is not real? Are you psychic?
    Anything short of the person saying "I'm the saddest! I loved them the most!", then they're not doing it for attention.
    Do not assume otherwise.
    If me assuming that people's display of grief is honest and real makes me naive, then I'd prefer to be naive. Your assumption is no better than mine. You can't prove the grief is fake and I cannot prove it is honest, and who would want to? How would that satisfy anyone?
    How does assuming people are grieving for attention benefit you? It only makes you angry and bitter. Better to assume the opposite and not stew in negative feelings that will only make your grief worse.

    What I'm saying is- step outside yourself before you assume.
    Maybe that person who always laughs the loudest and cries the loudest is just, well, loud.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]We all know someone who looooves attention and always cries the hardest or laughs the loudest.  It's upsetting.  When my nephew died, if my brother's girlfriend had shown up and forced him to watch over her instead of letting him grieve with us, it would be been annoying as all he//.  NOT saying that is what Angel did, but that is what Whata and Ash are getting at (at least I think!).
    Posted by framerican51008[/QUOTE]
     
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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Here is my list.  And Angel this is not directed at you.  As I said before, I don't know you personally and I don't make assumptions.  This is just in response to the thread and the hypotheticals that have been thrown out there. 1) FIL was way out of line, no doubt. 2) I think there is a grain of truth in Whata's posts on this particular thread.  Nothing wrong with trying to figure out FIL's perspective.  Doesn't mean we agree with it. 2) We all know someone who looooves attention and always cries the hardest or laughs the loudest.  It's upsetting.  When my nephew died, if my brother's girlfriend had shown up and forced him to watch over her instead of letting him grieve with us, it would be been annoying as all he//.  NOT saying that is what Angel did, but that is what Whata and Ash are getting at (at least I think!).
    Posted by framerican51008[/QUOTE]
    Yes, Fra-
         Figuring out the FIL's perspective, in part because this happened at a very tough time in his life.  A certain strong, irrational state overcomes people of his age, seeing a child or grandchild die before them.  It blows apart their life for a while.
         The fact that these things came so totally out of the blue to Angel says, however he and his wife have felt, whatever he and she discussed privately, for 6 years of marriage they have NOT brought these things up.  So til now he has never done this; it is uncharacteristic for him to tell off DIL.  So maybe his usual for 6 years has been MYOB, or maybe he talks to son.
        But now it probably is his style of getting control of a situation.   The manner he thought  right talking to his kids when little and as teens.  Looking out for what he  thinks is the welfare of family. (However cockeyed.)  

         People often do strange things and have a terrible anger at the unfairness of life, losing a child or grandchild, and taking control as though it will somehow keep the family together, ward off any further loss, is a typical, death and dying response.  Displaced anger at God and the universe.
         This is his way of crying out loud and screaming at the horror - as irrational as someone who throws himself to the ground and pounds his head.  It is simply hard to recognize, because it takes a different form.
         Just as most people seem to think, you give a pass to someone who sobs uncontrollably , and do not shut them up for propriety's sake -
    Maybe this time, FIL needs a pass.  Not to do this again, not to interfere in son's marriage.  Just erase the event.  Think - the way he sees it, if anyone else seems to take the loss worse than them, either they did not love the child enough - horror - or something must be wrong with that girl, what she is doing is all about her, because we / I / core family to FIL loved the child who died more than anyone else ever could.

         FIL has to believe that.  Pushing  any challenge to who loved her most  aside, acting in charge of the family and it's welfare as he sees it, blots out the fears and the horrible loss.  WARPED?  by regular standards.  But so typical of many, many in his situation, that people like Kubler-Ross and followers studying "On Death and Dying"  found this pattern of coping as common as crying at a funeral.

         In the future, FIL needs to go back to Minding His O B.  But for all he may say, yeah, I should not have said that - he so deeply needs to do something, I hope Angel and his son can have enough compassion to see how helpless he feels inside, cannot prevent the death of a child, a parent and GP's first duty.

         Many families blow apart after a death.  It is a good time to not have confrontations.  Just step back and say, he is out of his ordinary self, said awful things, but we care enough to just back away.  If he were crying, it would look like what people call grief.  But this is his form, and a common one, and loving family will make allowances.

         If he never got into stuff about son and Angel before, that shows the normal self is not perfect, but within reason.
         Just see it from FIL perspective.  When someone is temporarily blinded and stumbles and falls, you don't berate them,  explain what was wrong with them or how they got off course.  You do the compassionate thing,  help them to get up and on their feet.  Loving family make allowances sometimes.  
       
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Okay now, where is the horse?  We all pretty much beat this subject to death.
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Pink, we will have to agree to disagree.  I believe there absolutely are people out there who act a certain way simply to get attention or because of their own issues.  Not saying Angel is one those people, but saying they do exist in the abstract.  If you haven't had the pleasure of dealing with such people, then you are lucky.  There is nothing wrong with people grieving in their own ways, even if it means crying the loudest.  But there are people out there who have serious issues and who will always try to be the center of attention.
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I studied "On Death & Dying" in college. Nowhere does it say that you stand by and take an undeserved personal attack because the other person is in grief.
    A person in grief can do a lot of crazy things, things they do not mean to do or say, but that doesn't mean that you should let them hurt others and let it slide.
    If this is something out of his character that he did because he was in grief, good, then he'll understand when they tell him that what he did was out of line and hurtful.
    He needs to know that the way he percieves things is not the way things are, and that he had no right to stage such an intimidating and damaging "intervention".
    Once he understands that, everyone wins.
    His mind will be at ease, and OP and her husband can start re-building the trust.

    Sweeping it under the rug will do nothing but breed resentment.

    Losing a loved one does not give ANYONE a free pass to do or say whatever they please to people.

    I do not believe what he did was out of grief. It was calculated and methodical. He made a plan and executed it. It was not in a moment of pain or passion that he lashed out. He made a list. He discussed it with his wife. He sent his wife to distract their son. He isolated OP. He listed and lectured her on all the things he doesn't like about her. He didn't allow her to explain or talk about how things might improve. He then asked for a hug.
    That's the not the actions of someone irrational with grief.
    Those actions were planned and premeditated. They were very, very rational.
    I would not classify that as "crazy with grief" by any stretch of the imagination.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : .  But so typical of many, many in his situation, that people like Kubler-Ross and followers studying "On Death and Dying"  found this pattern of coping as common as crying at a funeral.   
    Posted by whatawagSBNy[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    but how can you know for sure they're not in real emotional pain?
    How can you even presume to know that?

    It's assumptions like those that lead to "sit downs" full of perceived slights like in the OP.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Pink, we will have to agree to disagree.  I believe there absolutely are people out there who act a certain way simply to get attention or because of their own issues.  Not saying Angel is one those people, but saying they do exist in the abstract.  If you haven't had the pleasure of dealing with such people, then you are lucky.  There is nothing wrong with people grieving in their own ways, even if it means crying the loudest.  But there are people out there who have serious issues and who will always try to be the center of attention.
    Posted by framerican51008[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Peonie. Show Peonie's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Pink, I took that course too...do you remember the 4 stages of grieving? I thought that course was so interesting.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]I studied "On Death & Dying" in college. Nowhere does it say that you stand by and take an undeserved personal attack because the other person is in grief. A person in grief can do a lot of crazy things, things they do not mean to do or say, but that doesn't mean that you should let them hurt others and let it slide. If this is something out of his character that he did because he was in grief, good, then he'll understand when they tell him that what he did was out of line and hurtful. He needs to know that the way he percieves things is not the way things are, and that he had no right to stage such an intimidating and damaging "intervention". Once he understands that, everyone wins. His mind will be at ease, and OP and her husband can start re-building the trust. Sweeping it under the rug will do nothing but breed resentment. Losing a loved one does not give ANYONE a free pass to do or say whatever they please to people. I do not believe what he did was out of grief. It was calculated and methodical. He made a plan and executed it. It was not in a moment of pain or passion that he lashed out. He made a list. He discussed it with his wife. He sent his wife to distract their son. He isolated OP. He listed and lectured her on all the things he doesn't like about her. He didn't allow her to explain or talk about how things might improve. He then asked for a hug. That's the not the actions of someone irrational with grief. Those actions were planned and premeditated. They were very, very rational. I would not classify that as "crazy with grief" by any stretch of the imagination. In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    VERY LONG - Anyone not interested in K R's work on grief,  skip it.

    Pink kittie - "I studied "On Death & Dying" in college. Nowhere does it say that you stand by and take an undeserved personal attack because the other person is in grief."  
    Oh yes, that is just what KR says.

         Actually, if you studied the complete trilogy by K R,  D & D,  Grief and Grieving, and Life Lessons (with Kessler) and the companion lecture series by K R, the following will be familiar.  Warning -  She is even wordier than I am.  But if I abridged it, you might think me prejudiced and selective, so this is it, word for word.     Part 1, from D & D.  Part 2- comforting the grieving in  the stage of anger.  Sorry I cannot figure how to reformat something scanned in.


     At first grief feels like being lost at sea: no connection to anything. Then you get angry at someone,
    maybe a person who didn’t attend the funeral, maybe a person who isn’t around, maybe a person
    who is different now that your loved one has died. Suddenly you have a structure – - your anger
     toward them. The anger becomes a bridge over the open sea, a connection from you to them. It is
     something to hold onto; and a connection made from the strength of anger feels better than nothing.
    from the lecture, comfort for the grieving:

    Family and  friends  of a grieving person need to allow them to go through with expressions of anger,
    even when they make the comforting effort difficult.  Many find the more common expression of women's emotions
    through crying, shouting, pacing and signs of internal turmoil  easier to deal with than either the acting out or cold
    focused anger more common to men, across all cultures.  To provide comfort, the grieving person must be allowed to vent.
    Friends and family should not suppress this anger, or try to redirect it, as long as it does not escalate to physical violence.
    They need not accept that anything said in anger is true,  or that anyone need take any actions demanded  in anger.


     
    The most helpful reaction of the comforting person is to listen and make no judgement or argument.  There should be
     no consequences for venting, it is simply a necessary release of pent up emotion  often unrelated to any long term feelings.
     A comforter may find himself the target of anger, and need only realize that the grieving person could have seized
    on anyone who crossed his path, particularly anyone seen as not as close to the person recently lost.  For many, this
    focused anger directed toward others serves to reaffirm  the strength of their own love for
    the lost family member, and exact words said do not matter.  Accusations made may not be true, and need not be,
    for either way they provide a way to release intense emotional feelings, a psychological and even physical need.
     The feelings of being lost and helpless become feelings of control and mission, and however irrelevant they may
    be to the actuality of the targeted persons life, the expressions and statements made in anger have served their purpose.
    Compassion from a comforter, whether family, friend, or caretaker,  lies in acknowledging the grief and anger as legitimate
    while dismissing the content of the diatribe.

     

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