OT-How should I/we handle this?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Scorpio75. Show Scorpio75's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Damn you scared Angel away I was looking forward to her updated post.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from whatawagSBNy. Show whatawagSBNy's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Damn you scared Angel away I was looking forward to her updated post.
    Posted by Scorpio75[/QUOTE]

    Scorpio, your idea that someone would be scared away by a passage from a book is not very flattering.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]But there's nothing wrong with that. Who cares if that's what they thought? 30-year-olds aren't allowed to cry when the 16-year-olds aren't? They're just expressing their grief differently. Perhaps the 16-year-old saw someone feeling the same pain they felt and went to be with them. In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    Pink - your point is made.  grief takes on different forms.  got it.

    You say, "who cares what they think?"  Well, I do if I'm in their family. 

    story - I've been in my husband's family for 20 years.  In that time, I've been with them through weddings and funerals and babies and joy and grief.  They still think I do most things 'wrong' and they tend to think I'm selfish and snobby.  I happen to think I'm a wonderful giving loving person and I can tell you 10 stories of when they've judged my actions incorrectly.  Do I care.  Hell yes!!!  They are my family!!!!  Do I change for them?  Some.  In small ways. Not my heart, but I adjust my actions for them because I want family harmony.

    So that's my story - people bend.  People want happy families.  You do what you have to do. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ash. Show ash's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Damn you scared Angel away I was looking forward to her updated post.
    Posted by Scorpio75[/QUOTE]

    I feel bad, I think I contributed to that.  I was looking forward to an update as well.  I was wondering how the husband was handling it and if he and Angel were able to support each other in dealing with it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

       Losing a loved one does not give ANYONE a free pass to do or say whatever they please to people.

    Yeah - actually it sure does.  People under stress sometimes act out.  Sometimes take their hurt out on others.  Sometimes act uncharacteristically.  It happens all the time. 

    Because you care, you understand their stress and you forgive them.  We are human, we make mistakes.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from whatawagSBNy. Show whatawagSBNy's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : I feel bad, I think I contributed to that.  I was looking forward to an update as well.  I was wondering how the husband was handling it and if he and Angel were able to support each other in dealing with it.
    Posted by ash[/QUOTE]

    I think we should give Angel some credit here.  There is a lot to digest in a thread with over 100 posts in a day,  but no one has been insulting to her in any way.  Saying that another person , FIL,  may have seen things differently is something we all understand.  I did not read a single post where anyone said he was right.  Just the opposite, his stored up list of grievances must have been horribly upsetting, and people seem to all agree, most of what he brought up was not even his business to comment on.

           For people to say, yes he was horrible, but considering he just lost a grand daughter,  maybe Angel can forget the meanness of what he said, showing compassion,  actual shows  we hold Angel in good opinion.
           It is extremely hard to put aside legitimate personal grievances and be the bigger person.  I think we assume good things about Angel in thinking she can do this.
          In the interest of keeping a loving family, sometimes we eat a lot of pride while catering to a person in great distress.  The capacity to forget insults in the name of helping someone else get through a very hard time is laudable.

    Marriage and families are not easy.  The optimism we feel when we marry  is tested over and over.  It can be hard.  Most of us think the work and sacrifices worthwhile, for the love.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Scorpio75. Show Scorpio75's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : Scorpio, your idea that someone would be scared away by a passage from a book is not very flattering.
    Posted by whatawagSBNy[/QUOTE]
    It wasn't the passage from the book but thanks for assuming the worst possible option and figure that was what I meant (but that tends to be part of your 'style').  I was referring to all the snipping between many posters on this board.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ash. Show ash's posts

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    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]   Losing a loved one does not give ANYONE a free pass to do or say whatever they please to people. Yeah - actually it sure does.  People under stress sometimes act out.  Sometimes take their hurt out on others.  Sometimes act uncharacteristically.  It happens all the time.  Because you care, you understand their stress and you forgive them.  We are human, we make mistakes.
    Posted by downtoearth[/QUOTE]

    Auntbeth, thank you.  I know your posts were not intended to comfort me, but the did make me feel better about what I was trying to express. And I think they got off the real topic, which is--what is Angel going to do now.

    I know there are many days my cousin's wife does not want to get out of bed.  But she has to, she has 3 children to help mourn.  So maybe the OP really wanted badly to lie down with a washcloth over her eyes for half the day, completely understandable, but the family was saying we really, really need you over here.  And sometimes you need to move aside your own grief to help others.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

     Ash - just posting to say I saw your post.  It is true that being family means sometimes you have to allow others their failures or mistakes.

    Forgiveness is a good thing. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : I think we should give Angel some credit here.  There is a lot to digest in a thread with over 100 posts in a day,  but no one has been insulting to her in any way.  Saying that another person , FIL,  may have seen things differently is something we all understand.  I did not read a single post where anyone said he was right.  Just the opposite, his stored up list of grievances must have been horribly upsetting, and people seem to all agree, most of what he brought up was not even his business to comment on.        For people to say, yes he was horrible, but considering he just lost a grand daughter,  maybe Angel can forget the meanness of what he said, showing compassion,  actual shows  we hold Angel in good opinion.        It is extremely hard to put aside legitimate personal grievances and be the bigger person.  I think we assume good things about Angel in thinking she can do this.       In the interest of keeping a loving family, sometimes we eat a lot of pride while catering to a person in great distress.  The capacity to forget insults in the name of helping someone else get through a very hard time is laudable. Marriage and families are not easy.  The optimism we feel when we marry  is tested over and over.  It can be hard.  Most of us think the work and sacrifices worthwhile, for the love.
    Posted by whatawagSBNy[/QUOTE]

    Waggy - well put. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dkb6248. Show dkb6248's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Unfortunately, I don't believe that the FIL was "acting out" out of grief.  This was a planned and coordinated incident - not the FIL flying off the handle over the way she expressed her grief at  the funeral.  This conversation would have taken place anyway. He had a list for crying out loud...the fact that she was there for the funeral was just an opportunity (badly timed) for him to have this talk with her.

    I also don't feel the family was saying we really, really need you over here.  They were saying we don't like who you are and you're doing a bad job at being our son's wife.

    Angel- this thread has gotten off topic with us debating over grief and analyzing your FIL's though process.  None of that is the point, the fact is that 99% (maybe all) of us agree that your FIL was out of line in his delivery and we would like to know what your DH said to his father, and what your next step is.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from heatherv1211. Show heatherv1211's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I pretty much agree with everyone.  Is that allowed?  Wink

    I think the FIL made a HUGE mistake by doing what he did.  I think it was an awful, calculated thing he did to Angel.  I would bet that situation occurred at that particular time due to his intense grief - i don't think it was a coincidence that he chose that moment.  But what he did made an already horrific situation even worse, and possibly caused permanent damage.  I would be curious about the general personality and nature of FIL before all of this.  Was this TOTALLY out of character?  Was it in line with how Angel's DH grew up?  I wonder.

    (now onto something that has nothing to do with the Angel situation) Like Ash and Fram, I KNOW there are people who display insincere grief (or other strong emotions for that matter) to seek attention and make themselves feel good.  It's not an "assumption" when you see the person act one way, but say something or act in a totally contrary way immediately before or after.  I don't think it's common, but I've seen it happen. 

    However, grief is an emotion that tends to make people incredibly uncomfortable.  Any intense, outward, public display will usually cause others to react in some way, trying to get away from it.  Sometimes it may be to say, "he's faking it", or "that's inappropriate".  It makes people uncomfortable.  This doesn't mean people shouldn't be "allowed" to grieve however they need to.

    It's all so complicated... The best case scenario would be that the FIL gives a sincere, strong apology, and soon.  If he has always been a bully, this is not likely to happen.  I hope his son and DIL eventually stand up to him and say "this is not acceptable".  If I were Angel, I don't know that I'd ever be able to get over him saying "you shouldn't be a mother", unless he proved he wanted to make amends. 

    Angel - please keep us posted, we are all hoping for the best for you.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    That course made me so much more comfortable talking abotu death and ying. Did you go to FSC? Was the course with Prof. McLaughlin?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Pink, I took that course too...do you remember the 4 stages of grieving? I thought that course was so interesting. In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by Peonie[/QUOTE]
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    But what the FIL wasn't venting. It was calculated and planned.
    K R says to not argue against things said "in anger"
    When something is said "in anger" it's said in the heat of the moment, it's unplanned, yelled or blurted out.
    This is not the case here.

    OP and her husband are doing the right thing in standing up for themselves.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]VERY LONG - Anyone not interested in K R's work on grief,  skip it. Pink kittie - " I studied "On Death & Dying" in college. Nowhere does it say that you stand by and take an undeserved personal attack because the other person is in grief."   Oh yes, that is just what KR says.      Actually, if you studied the complete trilogy by K R,  D & D,  Grief and Grieving, and Life Lessons (with Kessler) and the companion lecture series by K R, the following will be familiar.  Warning -  She is even wordier than I am.  But if I abridged it, you might think me prejudiced and selective, so this is it, word for word.     Part 1, from D & D.  Part 2- comforting the grieving in  the stage of anger.  Sorry I cannot figure how to reformat something scanned in.  At first grief feels like being lost at sea: no connection to anything. Then you get angry at someone, maybe a person who didn’t attend the funeral, maybe a person who isn’t around, maybe a person who is different now that your loved one has died. Suddenly you have a structure – - your anger  toward them. The anger becomes a bridge over the open sea, a connection from you to them. It is  something to hold onto; and a connection made from the strength of anger feels better than nothing. from the lecture, comfort for the grieving: Family and  friends  of a grieving person need to allow them to go through with expressions of anger, even when they make the comforting effort difficult.  Many find the more common expression of women's emotions through crying, shouting, pacing and signs of internal turmoil  easier to deal with than either the acting out or cold focused anger more common to men, across all cultures.  To provide comfort, the grieving person must be allowed to vent. Friends and family should not suppress this anger, or try to redirect it, as long as it does not escalate to physical violence. They need not accept that anything said in anger is true,  or that anyone need take any actions demanded  in anger.   The most helpful reaction of the comforting person is to listen and make no judgement or argument.  There should be  no consequences for venting, it is simply a necessary release of pent up emotion  often unrelated to any long term feelings.  A comforter may find himself the target of anger, and need only realize that the grieving person could have seized on anyone who crossed his path, particularly anyone seen as not as close to the person recently lost.  For many, this focused anger directed toward others serves to reaffirm  the strength of their own love for the lost family member, and exact words said do not matter.  Accusations made may not be true, and need not be, for either way they provide a way to release intense emotional feelings, a psychological and even physical need.  The feelings of being lost and helpless become feelings of control and mission, and however irrelevant they may be to the actuality of the targeted persons life, the expressions and statements made in anger have served their purpose. Compassion from a comforter, whether family, friend, or caretaker,  lies in acknowledging the grief and anger as legitimate while dismissing the content of the diatribe.
    Posted by whatawagSBNy[/QUOTE]
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    sure, if it was said in the heat of the moment, you can brush it off.

    This was not heat of the moment. It wasn't spontaneous.
    It was planned out and calculated. As dkb syas- he had a list for crying out loud! He had a plan and an accomplise in his wife.
    And worse, FIL never mentioned it having anything to do with the ordeal the family was going through.

    I know sometimes one must stifle one's self a little when you're among those who are critical of you. I just think it's very hard to stifle grief when you're grieving. We're actually talking about how no one should expect anyone to control their grief- funny how you and whata feel FIL should get a pass for showing his grief in nasty ways but feel OP should have to answer for how you assume she my have grieved loudly.
    I just can't reconcile that. How can you think the FIL gets to vent his grief however he pleases but OP should stifle herself?
    That's hypocritical.


    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]   Losing a loved one does not give ANYONE a free pass to do or say whatever they please to people. Yeah - actually it sure does.  People under stress sometimes act out.  Sometimes take their hurt out on others.  Sometimes act uncharacteristically.  It happens all the time.  Because you care, you understand their stress and you forgive them.  We are human, we make mistakes.
    Posted by downtoearth[/QUOTE]
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Peonie. Show Peonie's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]That course made me so much more comfortable talking abotu death and ying. Did you go to FSC? Was the course with Prof. McLaughlin? In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? :
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    No, went to Northeastern. It was an interesting course though. I am still not as comfortable as I should be talking about death. My Aunt's husband died on Saturday, and I am about to call her to give my condolences and it makes me so uncomfortable. I never know what to say. Undecided
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Goodness1. Show Goodness1's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I am so uncomfortable talking about death and dying.  Scares me.  Maybe it's the unknown, or the fact that life is so precious and you never know what the next hour/day/week/year will bring.  I know I need to be better about it, though.  I might need to take this course.  I majored in sociology and psychology in college, and never took a course like this.  Wish I had now. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from cosmogirl. Show cosmogirl's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Wondering how well Angel actually knew the niece, how much time did they spend with her, the niece's parents, etc.  Was never mentioned.

    Wondering why they had to stay at the friends of the parents instead of in a hotel.

    Wondering why she spent more time describing how much she hates smoking than she did about her relationship with the niece.  Or about the bugs and ants.

    I tend to think that ash is exactly right, that she was making an inappropriate amount of fuss all over the place and upsetting other members of the family.  That is borne out by the fact that a 16 yo came over to "see if she was all right".

    I agree that people grieve in all different ways but if the purpose of staying there for 5 days was to help and support each other, I wonder how much help and support she provided instead of received.   

    Angel might want to ask her DH if he thought the way she behaved at the funeral was inappropriate, and if her behavior was what pushed her FIL over the edge.  

    I"m not saying FIL was right to do what he did...he wasn't.  I kind of bet that hubby even knew ahead of time, too. 


    (At my mom's funeral, the biggest cryer and sobber was my sister who visited my  mom for exactly 1/2 hour in the last 18 months of her life, despite my repeated begging.  So I don't need anyone telling me that people have the right to grieve/behave any way they choose at a funeral.  They need to behave in a way that is appropriate to the circumstances and not make a mockery of it by making it all about themselves.  Just saying.)   




     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Angel525. Show Angel525's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Damn you scared Angel away I was looking forward to her updated post.
    Posted by Scorpio75[/QUOTE]


    I am still here. I have NOT been scared wayI have been at the hospital all morning with hubby having tests done. Will try to read /reply more today. I can't keep up with everyones responses. I was not able to read much yesterday.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    well, it's still tough to find what to say. Too bad there's not like a guidebook for that.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : No, went to Northeastern. It was an interesting course though. I am still not as comfortable as I should be talking about death. My Aunt's husband died on Saturday, and I am about to call her to give my condolences and it makes me so uncomfortable. I never know what to say.
    Posted by Peonie[/QUOTE]
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from cosmogirl. Show cosmogirl's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    Peonie,  no one likes having to make those calls, but they mean SO MUCH to the person receiving them.

    Aunt Thelma, I was so sorry to hear about Uncle Louie.  How are you doing? 

    And then offer to do ONE specific thing, i.e. help with the after-services luncheon, pick someone up from the airport, take Uncle's clothing to the funeral home.

    Short and sweet, or let her talk.  She'll appreciate it! 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    I still don't see how crying really hard at a funeral can make a mockery of it.
    People cry at funerals not only for loss but because of guilt and anger.
    If they don't vent it there, where should they vent it?
    Funerals are for venting grief.

    That's like saying people should go number 2 in public restrooms. Sure it's not pleasant or ideal for anyone else there, but that's what a bathroom is for and you do what nature tells you to do.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from whatawagSBNy. Show whatawagSBNy's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this? : No, went to Northeastern. It was an interesting course though. I am still not as comfortable as I should be talking about death. My Aunt's husband died on Saturday, and I am about to call her to give my condolences and it makes me so uncomfortable. I never know what to say.
    Posted by Peonie[/QUOTE]

         I don't think anyone finds it easy.

         Sometimes classroom theory does not give you an idea what to DO.
    One thing I liked was having an instructor who went through the implications - taking what she says,  how should you act.

        The recommendation that you should say what a good and valued person the deceased was, and should focus on acknowledging,  what a terrible loss for you, and we all know how you loved and cared for this person, how unfair life is  -
    makes it easier to see, yes you validate how they are feeling, console the survivors.  Also , talking less of how he or she suffered - they know that -  and instead making a point to share good memories.  They want to hear the loved one was wonderful, and loved.  
        The other advice, to not say things like:  it was for the best,  or: he was needed in heaven, or: well, he did have a long life, it was to be expected   /> hits home. 
          Grieving people do not want to hear it was right that their loved one was taken away, or other platitudes  about the angels taking good care of him.  They want the person back, they cared for him best and loved him best  and have a terrible hole in their life.  They need people to acknowledge those things first when the death is still so painful. 
         They do want to talk of cherish memories, even though they cry, and hate when everyone who is uncomfortable talks cocktail party talk instead of about the deceased,  or how awful it is for the survivors.
        I found those specifics more helpful that following the example of what others say.
         Sorry you are dealing with this now.  Have a good talk. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinkkittie27. Show pinkkittie27's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    yes that's a good template. It's far better to ask to do one thing than to say "Can I do anything to help?" as the person is most likely overwhelmed or might not want to feel like a burden.

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]Peonie,  no one likes having to make those calls, but they mean SO MUCH to the person receiving them. Aunt Thelma, I was so sorry to hear about Uncle Louie.  How are you doing?  And then offer to do ONE specific thing, i.e. help with the after-services luncheon, pick someone up from the airport, take Uncle's clothing to the funeral home. Short and sweet, or let her talk.  She'll appreciate it! 
    Posted by cosmogirl[/QUOTE]
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from downtoearth. Show downtoearth's posts

    Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?

    In Response to Re: OT-How should I/we handle this?:
    [QUOTE]I still don't see how crying really hard at a funeral can make a mockery of it. People cry at funerals not only for loss but because of guilt and anger. If they don't vent it there, where should they vent it? Funerals are for venting grief. That's like saying people should go number 2 in public restrooms. Sure it's not pleasant or ideal for anyone else there, but that's what a bathroom is for and you do what nature tells you to do.
    Posted by pinkkittie27[/QUOTE]

    winner of the silliest analogy award!
     
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