Yesterday's Letter (Education)

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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education) : I was going to write a long explanation about values and economic advantages, but you know what, I think it comes down to class.  We want someone who is in a similar "class" to us.  We measure class by money and education.  The reality is, people are snobs.  And it's not just the educated who are snobs.  I've certainly hear plenty of people say they don't want to listen to someone with their ivory-tower education, or that someone with a Ph.D. must lack real-world smarts (sorry, LWitt, for bringing that up again - just illustrating a point). This doesn't make us bad people.  We simply relate better to people we have the most in common with.
    Posted by two-sheds[/QUOTE]

    By and large I agree with everything you said here except those very last 2 lines. I say that because the aspect that often comes across isn't just snobbery, it's disdain. 

    I see a difference between someone saying "I prefer to date someone with a college degree." and someone who says "I refuse to date anyone who doesn't have a degree.".  The first expresses a preference (which we all have) but does so in a way that doesn't insult those who didn't go to college and allows that they might still date someone without a degree if other factors fall into place.  The latter statement is completely exclusionary and without exceptions. The hidden connotaion is "I'm *better* than someone that doesn't have a degree!".  To me, that isn't the hallmark of a "good" person.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education) : By and large I agree with everything you said here except those very last 2 lines. I say that because the aspect that often comes across isn't just snobbery, it's disdain.  I see a difference between someone saying "I prefer to date someone with a college degree." and someone who says "I refuse to date anyone who doesn't have a degree.".  The first expresses a preference (which we all have) but does so in a way that doesn't insult those who didn't go to college and allows that they might still date someone without a degree if other factors fall into place.  The latter statement is completely exclusionary and without exceptions. The hidden connotaion is "I'm *better* than someone that doesn't have a degree!".  To me, that isn't the hallmark of a "good" person.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton[/QUOTE]

    Jim,

    I read the last two statements differently.  There is a STRONG anti intellectual streak in USA.  It gets old to defend yourself against it.

     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education) : By and large I agree with everything you said here except those very last 2 lines. I say that because the aspect that often comes across isn't just snobbery, it's disdain.  I see a difference between someone saying "I prefer to date someone with a college degree." and someone who says "I refuse to date anyone who doesn't have a degree.".  The first expresses a preference (which we all have) but does so in a way that doesn't insult those who didn't go to college and allows that they might still date someone without a degree if other factors fall into place.  The latter statement is completely exclusionary and without exceptions. The hidden connotaion is "I'm *better* than someone that doesn't have a degree!".  To me, that isn't the hallmark of a "good" person.
    Posted by Jim-in-Littleton[/QUOTE]

    I can't necessarily agree.  What you are really talking about is how you are hearing what is said, and not necessarily the actual intention.  For example, if I say that I refuse to date anyone that smokes, does that mean I think smokers are beneath me, that they are inferior?  It could be that I have bad allergies or sinus problems.
    What a person says is filtered by the experiences of the person hearing it.  And as already pointed out here, we all have our filters.  Who's to say that any preference of any kind is better or worse than any other?  Some people prefer to date within their race or religion.  Does that necessarily mean they think everyone from a different race or religion is somehow inferior?  Or maybe they are looking for some commonality.
    A very good friend of mine, who was Irish, said his father told him to marry an Irish girl.  His reason?  If they ever had a fight, and one of them insulted the other's heritage, they were calling themselves the same thing.  Apply that to educational level and what might happen if the person with the degree called the one without "stupid" during a fight.
    As I posted to the original LW, when you're online, you get to use your full wish list.  But meeting people in real life--entirely different ballgame.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]So, for the folks here who didn't attend college:
    What was your reason for not doing so?
    Posted by reindeergirl[/QUOTE]


    I didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.  Mom asked me "what do you like in school?" and I replied "history and English classes."  Mom said "Well, that leaves anthropologist or a teacher. [And she was kidding, for the most part - the teacher thing was a high probability, but I didn't think I wanted to be a teacher.]  How about Katharine Gibbs?  You can get into any business in the world with an admin background."  I was good at organizing and managing things, so I took their two-year libarts associates degree curriculum.

    ETA:  I also got the "If you don't know what you want to do with your career at age 17, I'm not paying for a 4-year college for you" from my father.  :-/

    I love to cook, but only when *I* want to.  And it's a young person's job as working the line in a restaurant is grueling (nor does it pay well - and celebuchefs didn't exist for the most part when I would have gone to a culinary school).

    Is it what I had envisioned?  Probably not.  But I *still* don't know what I want to be when I grow up so it'll do for now.  :-) 
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    I graduated kindergarten

    anyone want to see the diploma?
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]And LMB - not to single you out because you are far from the only one but you can handle a good discussion about the topic - you constantly reference your intellectualism and the more complicated aspects of your job.  Why can't you say "have to go - busy at work" instead of "conference call with China" or "(insert complicated project here)".   Posted by Lily-[/QUOTE]


    What you see is snobbery is me reaching for some (any) motivation for a job that has become stale.  But I am a little too risk averse to make a change.


    I also was married to a man who was anti intellectual (who also had a master's degree and his Dad had a PHD).  My father, a high school drop out, is every bit as judgmental as some of the relatives that go up your backbone.  I've been rediculed for being an intellectual for a good part of my life.

     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    One more thing, Lily-

    Why SHOULD I diminish what I do?  It's part of who I am.  I'm not going to make myself smaller (well except for my waistline hopefully) to fit in.

    I think it's colorful and entertaining to add details like 'I need to go talk to China'. 
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    LMB I agree with you about an anti-intellectual movement. I get a lot of crap for being in school, again, and for where I attend school, and what I was studying. Even strangers have given me crap, which is awesome.

    It is very big on this blog- and this has come up many times.

    People here say there isn't a bias against education, however then there are statements like this:

    "Yeah, those folks with PhD's are just a bore to be around.  God forbid you ever have to talk to one, let alone date one."

    I'm heading down that path and I don't think I'm boring at all. My S.O. is as far from boring as you can possibly get, AND he went to *gasp* an ivy-league too, so he must be horribly dull right?

    So it definitely goes both ways. I think there can be resentment and bitterness that comes out through this though. I used to be very bitter when talking about certain eduational things, but since then I have realized why I was bitter and have taken action to fix what I was resentful over instead of putting other people down for their success.

    But as LWhitt was saying, choosing not to go to school because you are not sure what you want to do is perfectly reasonable. I made mistakes in college/grad school, that I am fixing now, and this path will end up taking 17 years, when it should've been 11. So if I had waited to go to college, or grad school I wouldn't have to go through this now. I can appreciate not rushing into school. Wrongest and I have talked at length about this too.  How can you really know what you want to do for the rest of your life with no life experience at age 18?

    I'm just saying, the prejudices go both ways.

     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    Great stories, everyone. Thank you.

    As for the fawn, she wants to work for NASA, so I suppose grad school is in the works. But she wants to do a gap year traveling the world.  I support that.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    Also- one more point, I think education/job can be part of your value system. My sister is law's major value is to have a happy and healthy family. She didn't attend college, although recently has gone back, and has a beautiful daughter and takes care of the house. That's what she wants to do more than anything. My other S-i-l's major value is to be happy. She didn't go to grad school, neither did my other brother, but they have an incredible relationship and a great life. My first value is helping people. This impacts my happiness sometimes, my ability to have a certain lifestyle, and many relationships. Also for this I need a lot of education. For me, it isn't a job- it's a life. That's just my value. None of these are wrong. Some people need a job they can get through so they can get home and be with thier family and support it. Others their job is their life. Education is more important in the latter than the former possibly.  It's just what makes you you I think.
     
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    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE] There ARE guys who have a high enough self esteem to 'date up' - but they are few and far between. Smart chicks are HOT.
    Posted by kaptainfriday[/QUOTE]

    You win 1000 internets
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education) : Jim, I read the last two statements differently.  There is a STRONG anti intellectual streak in USA.  It gets old to defend yourself against it.
    Posted by Loud-Mouthed-Broad[/QUOTE]

    I would agree that there is a strong anti-intellectual "streak" (for lack of a better word) but...  I don't think that really applies here. For one thing, the use of the word intellectual is usually mis-applied.  Being an academic doesn't make one an intellectual. Also, even with the mis-application, I wasn't just talking about people with advanced degrees and I don't think the average person thinks that someone that obtains a 4-year degree is an intellectual. 
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    DRIVE-BY SHABAM

    I have a Bachelor's Degree. My boyfriend only went to high school. I am still mad about him. Sometimes limiting yourself to people of your education level is silly! The end.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    There's a thin line between confidence and arrogance.  
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    I agree with the statement that there is a difference, however if people percieve that others may think more educated = smarter or better, they are more likely to assume someone making a benign statement, or having "pride" is arrogant or bragging. If there is any insecurity at all there then it makes people more sensitive to this fact, and education can be a sensitive subject.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    hmm.. why didn't I go to school? I went to Four Highschools, my credits were ALL over the place. The school I was graduating from, told me I couldn't graduate unless I had more.. GYM credits. The Colleges I was applying for.. told me I needed more MATH credits. I went back to the highschool with this info, nope they say - you need GYM credits to graduate.

    It left a very very sour taste in my mouth.

    Neither of my parents went to college, they didn’t know the first thing about getting me set up for it and what it took. So I was ignorant anyway and had no idea where to get info. Back then (mid-late 90’s) the internet was just gaining speed so I wasn’t really sure where to get college info.

     

    I also had NO IDEA what I wanted. I was 17, went to four highschools, lived in 6 places in 5 years and had no stability. I wanted to do something that was going to allow for consistency and I had no idea what school could offer.

     

    Therefore, I went to community college for 2 months, hated it and bolted. At 19 I was hired at State Street and went from there. I am now in an amazing position as a Systems Analyst and kicking major butt. I WILL go back to school but ONLY for my own interest not because the world says I should. I want to learn and I want to be exposed to more. I can learn just as much at home but I want to be challenged in my learning.

     

    People should go to school when the time is right for them. Not when we say they should. If my parents forced me to go to college I bet I would’ve dropped out 3 times and been kicked out once. I am ready now, can’t wait either, and I know I’ll get much more out of it than most people.

     

    Since I was 23 I’ve applied to four schools, got in based on tests but was denied based on income. Haven’t found a single grant, reimbursement, funding, aid, etc etc. to help me out. So after my wedding, my number one priority is school. And when I have someone pooling money with me, I will finally be able to afford it. But I have people say ALL the time that they had no idea I didn’t go to school, even more so- higher ed. So it’s all in how you carry yourself and what you do with your own brain and resources. It’s not about being instituted but too many people make it about that.

     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    Jazzy, I know what you mean.  My middle stepdaughter went to college in NY.  In order to graduate she had to pass a swimming test!  Ridiculous. She didn't pass the test so they made her take extra courses to graduate.  She went through the graduation ceremony with her classmates but they gave her a blank diploma.  She finished her new "requirements" at Harvard Extension a year later and finally got her diploma.
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    BGal, I get what you're saying.  Like cb and many others have said, it's all about filters.  I admire your ambition to help people.  I truly get it, because I feel the same way (just on the technology side of things, rather than medical).

    On a personal level, I have no insecurities about not going to school, because I have nothing to regret.  I  I've worked for a few great companies and I'm pretty well-regarded by my peers and customers, and I'm proud that I built that reputation from the ground up through a lot of hard work, long hours and lots of effort.  I can imagine that college/grad school graduates feel the exact same way when they reflect on their college experience.

    Also: Jazzy can you like, install itunes for me n stuff plz thx
     
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    Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education)

    In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Yesterday's Letter (Education) : OK, I'll edit.  You shouldn't.  I would never suggest you diminish yourself.  But there's a fine line between pride and bragging.  Just like the really rich people in this world don't need to brag about their money, the smartest people don't need to brag about their intellectualism either. It reminds me of an NCIS LA episode where a main character was accused of "subtle bragging" by mentioning her size 2 jeans were getting a little tighter.
    Posted by Lily-[/QUOTE]

    Highly intelligent professor guy and I had an interesting exchange over labor day weekend.  He made a post on his blog about his favorite band and said 'and I'll buy a coffee for anyone who can tell me who is in the video'.

    I avoided that post (even though we were chatting on the blog that day) until he popped over to it.  I knew the answer, but I was uncomfortable with this whole 'impress me and I might bless you with my presence' vibe.  When he pushed me, I gave him an answer and he upped the ante.  By this time I was completely insecure ... this isn't a subject area I know well and I fought against that discomfort by making him equally uncomfortable.  Let's just say there wasn't a love match that day.

    The conversation that followed was interesting (to me - I think it killed his motivation to maintain a blog).  I basically said the same thing to him that you are saying to me.  When you are smart, it's your duty to make others comfortable.  But then I got interested in the topic I didn't know anything about, he recommended a few books, and I am happy as a clam learning about something new.
     

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