Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TarheelChief. Show TarheelChief's posts

    Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    During the Depression local governments ran out of money. How did they react?
    First, the shortened the years required to attend school. New Hampshire just made the 11th grade the senior year.During the 1930's this was done in many states.
    There is nothing to say they cannot shorten the school year to save money by cutting back from June to May,or by giving the students a two month winter break to save on heat and salaries.
    Secondly,they can and will cease to provide bus service to younger students or make the parents pay for the privilege.This leads to car pooling or gives the shoe makers more ammunition when selling youngsters shoes.
    Thirdly,the can change the curriculum and force parents to pay directly for any athletic training or travel.This will cut back on numerous out of town trips or shorten the schedules.There's nothing sacred about a 10 game schedule or even a six game schedule. In West Texas they have 6 man football.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    There is nothing to say they cannot shorten the school year to save money by cutting back from June to May,or by giving the students a two month winter break to save on heat and salaries.
    ================
    180 day minimum school year is law in Mass
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]There is nothing to say they cannot shorten the school year to save money by cutting back from June to May,or by giving the students a two month winter break to save on heat and salaries. ================ 180 day minimum school year is law in Mass
    Posted by GreginMedford[/QUOTE]

    And I don't think it is enough for us to be competitive in the world market.  Suggesting less is irresponsible.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TarheelChief. Show TarheelChief's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    Do the private schools spend the same amount of time on instruction?
    Are the teachers at private schools being paid as much as the teachers in public schools?
    Does per pupil expenditure equal successful results?
    Has nyone studied the Commonwealth expenditure per pupil?
    Have teachers or professors ever decided to accept less and help the school district  or college escape bankruptcy,or have they like the UAW  said:
       Cut management,they don't do anything.
    How much money will taxpayers give to teachers,janitors,and principals? Is there a tipping point when they will stop passing bond issues,will stop accepting the annual "competitive" market theory.
    I think most people in this country should examine the  redundant cost of running township systems.I think they should study Finland's method of teaching which includes testing to find out whether or not everyone needs to continue their education.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]Do the private schools spend the same amount of time on instruction? Are the teachers at private schools being paid as much as the teachers in public schools? Does per pupil expenditure equal successful results? Has nyone studied the Commonwealth expenditure per pupil? Have teachers or professors ever decided to accept less and help the school district  or college escape bankruptcy,or have they like the UAW  said:    Cut management,they don't do anything. How much money will taxpayers give to teachers,janitors,and principals? Is there a tipping point when they will stop passing bond issues,will stop accepting the annual "competitive" market theory. I think most people in this country should examine the  redundant cost of running township systems.I think they should study Finland's method of teaching which includes testing to find out whether or not everyone needs to continue their education.
    Posted by TarheelChief[/QUOTE]


    Can you tell us more about Finland, and how it differs from a township model?  I agree that our system starts to underserve kids after the primary grades, but I'm not sure we've targeted exactly why.

    One aspect I'm keen on is the dumbing down of history via poor quality text books. (Reuben - any observations here?).  I wonder if the same is true across subjects...textbooks always strike me as agenda driven and inane.

    I have reviewed a little bit of the data on expenditure per student, and it does seem true that merely spending more does not result in a better product.  But I'm somewhat of a mind that the culture is at least as much to blame as the schools, if not more.  Parents must assume at LEAST half of the blame here.  A well parented child can excel even in a mediocre school.  It's all about individual effort, at the end of the day.

    How can kids watch as much TV as they do, and expect to be competitive?  We live in an anti-intellectual culture.  American adults don't read nearly as much as their European counterparts.  Surely, this must also be a factor.  What kind of message are those parents who also watch the average 4-5 hours of television per night sending to their kids?  How many of those kids are staying up too late, watching crappy programming with their parents?  Too many, is the basic truth.

    Be wary of scapegoating, and driving well intentioned, bright teachers out of the system - you could wind up with exactly the opposite result from what you are looking for.

    It all starts at home.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.


    Here are some thoughts:

    Do the private schools spend the same amount of time on instruction?

    No, they don't at least in terms of time.  But usually you have much smaller class sizes (and more focused students) snd so you can cover much more material.

    Are the teachers at private schools being paid as much as the teachers in public schools?

    No, as a rule they tend to get paid less.  That is the bargain they make to have the better students, smaller cflass sizes and more control over curriculum.

    Does per pupil expenditure equal successful results?

    To a certain extent, yes.  Private schools charge 30-40K per student and parochials are about half of that.  I am sure they have pretty good success rates.  Public schools range from 8-24K with probably 10-12K being the average.
    Some cities spend a lot and get poor graduation rates.  Middle class suburbia spends and gets results.

    Has anyone studied the Commonwealth expenditure per pupil?

    Here you go:
    http://profiles.doe.mass.edu/state_report/ppx.aspx

    Have teachers or professors ever decided to accept less and help the school district  or college escape bankruptcy,or have they like the UAW  said:
    Cut management,they don't do anything.

    I
    am not sure of colleges, but I know a number of public school unions that have agreed to adjust their current contracts because of the current economics.  Collective bargaining on new contracts have created further changes.

    How much money will taxpayers give to teachers,janitors,and principals? Is there a tipping point when they will stop passing bond issues,will stop accepting the annual "competitive" market theory.

    They will give (and take) what is the product of collective bargaining.  No one puts a gun to the head of administrators.  Teachers cannot strike. 

    I think most people in this country should examine the  redundant cost of running township systems.I think they should study Finland's method of teaching which includes testing to find out whether or not everyone needs to continue their education.


    You may be right about redundant costs.   But we have a long tradition of local control.   Regional districts have trouble coordinating their different towns which often have different wants and needs.  I am not sure about Finland and its testing program.  We have MCAS which weeds out certain students but leaving them pretty much no where to go.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]One aspect I'm keen on is the dumbing down of history via poor quality text books. (Reuben - any observations here?).  I wonder if the same is true across subjects...textbooks always strike me as agenda driven and inane.  Posted by Xaphius[/QUOTE]

    The textbook we use for U.S. History (purchased only a couple of years ago) is actually pretty good.   It is a survey so it paints with a broad brush.  It tends to be factual in orientation, but does hit the big issues of the times.  Social history is thrown into the mix so it is not just white guys making decisions.   We supplement a lot with primary source documents.  The reading level of the book is low and even so a lot of words have to be explained (and the primary sources are particularly hard) because a lot of kids just do not read and lack basic vocabulary.   And, yes parents, turn off the television and computer and sit your kid in front of a book.  Reading and writing skills are deteriorating.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    Teachers cannot strike. 
    ------------------------------

    And yet do anyway.  They should be thankful Patrick isn't Reagan
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]Teachers cannot strike.  ------------------------------ And yet do anyway.  They should be thankful Patrick isn't Reagan
    Posted by GreginMedford[/QUOTE]

    Any work stoppage is pretty easily resolved by going to court and gettin an injunction.  Can you identify a strike that took longer than a day or two?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : Any work stoppage is pretty easily resolved by going to court and gettin an injunction.  Can you identify a strike that took longer than a day or two?
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    without any effort at all

    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/06/quincy_teachers_4.html
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : without any effort at all http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/06/quincy_teachers_4.html
    Posted by GreginMedford[/QUOTE]

    A "few" days then. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : The textbook we use for U.S. History (purchased only a couple of years ago) is actually pretty good.   It is a survey so it paints with a broad brush.  It tends to be factual in orientation, but does hit the big issues of the times.  Social history is thrown into the mix so it is not just white guys making decisions.   We supplement a lot with primary source documents.  The reading level of the book is low and even so a lot of words have to be explained (and the primary sources are particularly hard) because a lot of kids just do not read and lack basic vocabulary.   And, yes parents, turn off the television and computer and sit your kid in front of a book.  Reading and writing skills are deteriorating.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]


    Thanks.

    That sounds about right.  If students were better readers, perhaps they could tackle more challenging texts, and more of them.  Perhaps they wouldn't be as reliant on these collections of 'high points'.  

    Of course, I say this without having first hand knowledge of what books or how many are read in European classrooms.....but that whole deal about low reading levels HAS to be an integral factor.

    It's a sad truth - bad readers make bad students, and in America, reading has been displaced by television; getting rid of TV was one of the best decisions I've made over the past few years.  It was always there, as an easy distraction, even when I knew I should be studying (for grad school).  So, I ditched it.  And 4 years later, I never miss it at all - except maybe for the occasional sports event, but now I have the perfect excuse to say "honey, I'm going to go meet the guys at the bar and catch the rest of the game....."

    Anyhow.

    Professor of mine once said, and I tend to agree: "I hate textbooks, because they create the illusion of Truth".

    peace.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : The textbook we use for U.S. History (purchased only a couple of years ago) is actually pretty good.   It is a survey so it paints with a broad brush.  It tends to be factual in orientation, but does hit the big issues of the times.  Social history is thrown into the mix so it is not just white guys making decisions.   We supplement a lot with primary source documents.  The reading level of the book is low and even so a lot of words have to be explained (and the primary sources are particularly hard) because a lot of kids just do not read and lack basic vocabulary.   And, yes parents, turn off the television and computer and sit your kid in front of a book.  Reading and writing skills are deteriorating.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    Reuben, my kids text books are extremely sub-standard! I have seen text books over the last 30 years plunge to the depths in all subjects. The dumbing down of our kids is almost complete.
    I wouldn't give you a nickel for a bachelors degree today. My high school diploma is worth more and my bachelors is worth 100 times more. When I came out of high school, I had more knowledge and better tools to be a citizen of this country. I had civics which taught us the true workings of our government and gave us the knowledge we needed to make informed decisions. Kids today coming out of college don't know how spending is handled in our government. It is evident in the rants about the 16 years of Republican governors and how they drove the state into the ground.
    I don't think spending = better education. I think more parent involvement at all levels is the only way we will turn it around. I know teachers in inner city schools that have parent/teacher nights and have 1 or 2 parents show up. At our last meeting nights neither of our kids teachers had a free 10 minute appointment time and they all went almost an hour over the allotted time on 2 sessions. It is, IMHO, why our kids do very well on MCAS and 98% of our HS graduates go to college.
    I also believe (I know you disagree) that we have to get rid of the control the teachers unions have on our education system.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    Brat:  I agree with a lot of your points.   Probably the biggest indicator for a successful educational career is a family background that embraces learning.  But creating the correct educatinal environment does cost money.  The old model of lecture with notes on a blackboard is not going to prepare kids for world of today.  Heck, the jobs they will have, may not even exist at present!  Technology is part of their lives, so it has to be part of their education too... and technology costs money. 

    And as for unions and other teacher protections... well, I don't think I would survive without them.  Before I got tenure (a state law concept) I was laid off because I made too much money.  I made too much money because I had a doctorate.  Now, I realize that degrees don't always mean expertise, but they are a pretty good indicator that you know what you are talking about.  Money crunches are ongoing and I have seen "overeducated" gypsy teachers flit from one place to another, but never settling down because there was often a cheaper alternative.  Try that with someone who has devoted 20 years to a place.  And then you have small town politics...  You can't be effective if you are always looking over your shoulder for issues that have nothing to do with teaching.  AND administrators should do more to weed out incompetents.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]Brat:  I agree with a lot of your points.   Probably the biggest indicator for a successful educational career is a family background that embraces learning.  But creating the correct educatinal environment does cost money.  The old model of lecture with notes on a blackboard is not going to prepare kids for world of today.  Heck, the jobs they will have, may not even exist at present!  Technology is part of their lives, so it has to be part of their education too... and technology costs money.  And as for unions and other teacher protections... well, I don't think I would survive without them.  Before I got tenure (a state law concept) I was laid off because I made too much money.  I made too much money because I had a doctorate.  Now, I realize that degrees don't always mean expertise, but they are a pretty good indicator that you know what you are talking about.  Money crunches are ongoing and I have seen "overeducated" gypsy teachers flit from one place to another, but never settling down because there was often a cheaper alternative.  Try that with someone who has devoted 20 years to a place.  And then you have small town politics...  You can't be effective if you are always looking over your shoulder for issues that have nothing to do with teaching.  AND administrators should do more to weed out incompetents.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    I agree and I am 100% for technology spending etc. My point was simply if town A spends $15K per student and town B spends $8K per student, town A wasn't assured of having better educated students.

    I have been layed off twice in 25 years in IT. Both times because I made too much money. While I have huge issues with both companies, I understand their points and reasoning. Both did it to save money on out sourced IT staffs and both spent twice what they were paying me in the first year. I had friends at both places that kept me up to date with the spending and I was laughing.

    I also think if we all lived in the same world (employment protection wise) we would have more empathy, when Microsoft announces their $2 dividend, for the thousands of Americans who lost their jobs to make that $2 happen!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : A "few" days then. 
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    Hey man, YOU are the one who said teacher's can't strike.  That is true.  Its also true that they do anyway.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : Hey man, YOU are the one who said teacher's can't strike.  That is true.  Its also true that they do anyway.
    Posted by GreginMedford[/QUOTE]

    I hear people drive over the speed limit!!  The horror!!  People break the law!! Shocking!!  Give me a break. 

    Unions can be fined for illegal strikes and people can even be sent to jail.  That is not true with business related unions. Losing that important tool of labor relations shifts the dynamic considerably towards the government.  Masconomet has been without a contract for a year and there is not much they can do beyond publicizing it.  We will see this issue used to much greater effect over the next couple of years.  
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from GreginMedford. Show GreginMedford's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    Unions can be fined for illegal strikes and people can even be sent to jail.  That is not true with business related unions. Losing that important tool of labor relations shifts the dynamic considerably towards the government. 
    ------------------
    Ya think?  Kinda the general idea behind the no strike clause.

    Why would you even bring up that they can't strike if all you were gonna do is excuse the fact that they do anyway?

    Yikes
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]Unions can be fined for illegal strikes and people can even be sent to jail.  That is not true with business related unions. Losing that important tool of labor relations shifts the dynamic considerably towards the government.  ------------------ Ya think?  Kinda the general idea behind the no strike clause. Why would you even bring up that they can't strike if all you were gonna do is excuse the fact that they do anyway? Yikes
    Posted by GreginMedford[/QUOTE]

    What exactly is your point?  Are you just trying to be churlish?  I said it is illegal for teachers to strike.   This is true.  Some teachers break the law (and get punished for it).  This is true.  The no-strike provision hampers the negotiating power of teachers unions.  That also is true.  I am making no excuses for anything about this.  Yikes indeed if you cannot take basic information without trying to twist it into some political agenda of your creation.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TarheelChief. Show TarheelChief's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : Can you tell us more about Finland, and how it differs from a township model?  I agree that our system starts to underserve kids after the primary grades, but I'm not sure we've targeted exactly why. One aspect I'm keen on is the dumbing down of history via poor quality text books. (Reuben - any observations here?).  I wonder if the same is true across subjects...textbooks always strike me as agenda driven and inane. I have reviewed a little bit of the data on expenditure per student, and it does seem true that merely spending more does not result in a better product.  But I'm somewhat of a mind that the culture is at least as much to blame as the schools, if not more.  Parents must assume at LEAST half of the blame here.  A well parented child can excel even in a mediocre school.  It's all about individual effort, at the end of the day. How can kids watch as much TV as they do, and expect to be competitive?  We live in an anti-intellectual culture.  American adults don't read nearly as much as their European counterparts.  Surely, this must also be a factor.  What kind of message are those parents who also watch the average 4-5 hours of television per night sending to their kids?  How many of those kids are staying up too late, watching crappy programming with their parents?  Too many, is the basic truth. Be wary of scapegoating, and driving well intentioned, bright teachers out of the system - you could wind up with exactly the opposite result from what you are looking for. It all starts at home.
    Posted by Xaphius[/QUOTE]
    The latest ranking of international educators placed Finland atop the entire crop of industrialized nations. There was a good article in the New York Times or Fortune about how they did this.
    First, like the old parochial schools they tested the 8th graders to see which ones should be educated further in academic subjects. It is similar to our SAT,MEDCATS,or GRE tests.It is meant to screen out.
    Secondly,they found Finns  read more something important to readers and writers. Most school systems cheapen  use standardized tests which rely on multiple choice tests  which involve critical reading skills and because of handwriting,a skill which is not emphasized in our modern world of computers.
    More school systems do not like using essay tests because grading might be subjective. These secondary systems also reject oral examinations which can demonstrate an ability to create and be articulate.But,both of these require much more money since it is done on an individual basis.
    It can also be more subjective if appearance or temper are involved.This lack of appearance criteria or temper testing reflects the cheapness of the present educational establishment and the fear of inequality. Many countries advocate uniforms for just this reason.Oral exams would also lead to more courses in rhetoric despite the fears of students and parents.
    Historically rhetoric was rejected because of the immigrant fears regarding grammar and diction of their children who had been trained to live in a bilingual world.
    The Finns and Hungarians write and speak differently from either the romance or Germanic language groups in Europe.Traditionally Latin,German, French or English were the languages used in religion, diplomacy or business.  Finns and Hungarians  stood alone  and had to adapt more to  learn languages.
    With this historical background you can see why Finns scored better on most tests.They were forced to learn to survive in a competitive environment.
    It is a shame our system refuses to accept the screening of 8th graders for it shrotchanges those with verbal,  artistic,mechanical or physical skills an opportunity to shine and develop.We seem to have shortages in skilled manual workers.Given the present fees given to the trades,the artistry and inventiveness of toolmakers,and the flexibility of a trade work in the national workforce one would think this problem would be rectified.
    However, secondary schools and community colleges are both funded locally for the local workforce and employers.Instead of apprenticeship procedures we fragment the training of masters. 
    We have also diminished the respect for manual labor amongst foolish educators who need a job,foolish lawyers who need clients,foolish accountants who need to deceive,and foolish doctors who need to repair those engaged in physical labor.
    Here again this lack of recognition injures the quality of our workforce,the respect for ingenius solutions found in our former agricultural workforce. Immigrants also feared being placed in and kept in a so-called lower position.
    Only the military and sales opened the doors to advancement and rank.Educators still maintain the more education the higher the reputation.This is a disconnection which should not be continued.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Xaphius. Show Xaphius's posts

    Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.

    In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Shorter school years,fewer bus rides,less athletics. : The latest ranking of international educators placed Finland atop the entire crop of industrialized nations. There was a good article in the New York Times or Fortune about how they did this. First, like the old parochial schools they tested the 8th graders to see which ones should be educated further in academic subjects. It is similar to our SAT,MEDCATS,or GRE tests.It is meant to screen out. Secondly,they found Finns  read more something important to readers and writers. Most school systems cheapen  use standardized tests which rely on multiple choice tests  which involve critical reading skills and because of handwriting,a skill which is not emphasized in our modern world of computers. More school systems do not like using essay tests because grading might be subjective. These secondary systems also reject oral examinations which can demonstrate an ability to create and be articulate.But,both of these require much more money since it is done on an individual basis. It can also be more subjective if appearance or temper are involved.This lack of appearance criteria or temper testing reflects the cheapness of the present educational establishment and the fear of inequality. Many countries advocate uniforms for just this reason.Oral exams would also lead to more courses in rhetoric despite the fears of students and parents. Historically rhetoric was rejected because of the immigrant fears regarding grammar and diction of their children who had been trained to live in a bilingual world. The Finns and Hungarians write and speak differently from either the romance or Germanic language groups in Europe.Traditionally Latin,German, French or English were the languages used in religion, diplomacy or business.  Finns and Hungarians  stood alone  and had to adapt more to  learn languages. With this historical background you can see why Finns scored better on most tests.They were forced to learn to survive in a competitive environment. It is a shame our system refuses to accept the screening of 8th graders for it shrotchanges those with verbal,  artistic,mechanical or physical skills an opportunity to shine and develop.We seem to have shortages in skilled manual workers.Given the present fees given to the trades,the artistry and inventiveness of toolmakers,and the flexibility of a trade work in the national workforce one would think this problem would be rectified. However, secondary schools and community colleges are both funded locally for the local workforce and employers.Instead of apprenticeship procedures we fragment the training of masters.  We have also diminished the respect for manual labor amongst foolish educators who need a job,foolish lawyers who need clients,foolish accountants who need to deceive,and foolish doctors who need to repair those engaged in physical labor. Here again this lack of recognition injures the quality of our workforce,the respect for ingenius solutions found in our former agricultural workforce. Immigrants also feared being placed in and kept in a so-called lower position. Only the military and sales opened the doors to advancement and rank.Educators still maintain the more education the higher the reputation.This is a disconnection which should not be continued.
    Posted by TarheelChief[/QUOTE]

    Quality stuff per usual, Chief....

    I don't have enough time to address everything, but just a couple of thoughts

    -manual labor: would such training reflect the modern job market in America, with all the outsourcing and such?

    -weeding out: sure, this would boost averages, and make us appear more internationally competitive, but it is truly fair to kids who might just take longer to mature?  I hear you on the rhetoric and such, but I'm not sure these concepts need to be mutually exclusive.

    -lots of countries use standardized tests, and they still beat the pants off of us (thinking of asian countries here...)


    Good stuff though.  Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
     
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