What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike1986. Show Mike1986's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Only Massachusetts residents answer me with 100% honesty please.
    I'm from California, and as many of you know, Proposition 8 was passed (banning same-sex marriage in California) on November 4, 2008. The Proposition 8 campaign says quite a bit of things about the current education system in Massachusetts. The Proposition 8 campaign says that after Massachusetts allowed same-sex marriage in 2004, that these days Massachusetts public school teachers are forced to teach same-sex marriage and that Massachusetts public school students are forced to learn about same-sex marriage and that if the parents/parent of the students/student or the students/student object to it the the student/students can't be removed from the class and are forced to learn about it. Are any of these claims that the Proposition 8 campaign makes about the Massachusetts education system remotely true?

    I figured I'd ask this question in the Boston.com Education forum since I figure that the majority of the posters in the Boston.com education forum know what is happening in the current Massachusetts education system.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Dingo kidneys?

    Curriculum is mostly decided at the local level. Some districts will have gay marriage as an aspect and some will not. There was a federal case out of Lexington that ruled that a student's rights were not infringed by exposure to this legal reality in the context of teaching kids about different families. I am unaware of any state mandates on the subject (and I am a teacher) beyond anti-discrimination laws we have to uphold and those are more reactive than active in nature.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mattyhorn. Show Mattyhorn's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]"Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, "Well, That about Wraps It Up for God." - Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, RE the Babel Fish and the non-existance of God.[/Quote]


    THAT'S what they should be teaching in schools...Doug Adams...simply sublime.

    Oh, and Mike86? That was an out-and-out LIE by the Prop. 8 cabal (ahem...mormon church). Don't believe it for a second. The only result of legalized gay marriage in Massachusetts has been the increase in caterers, BnBs, tasting menus and 2-for-1 groom-tux rentals.

    By the way, the Boston area was reported today as one of the very few urban centers in the country in which home sales ROSE last month, along with Manch-vegas and Providence.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]

    no matter how much they fudge the issues, no one wants or needs their agenda.....................[/Quote]

    You secretly want some of that fudge.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pajamaslavedancer. Show pajamaslavedancer's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Oh, its no secret.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from notso. Show notso's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Gay marriage is not pederasty, and your attempt to equate the two only shows your own desperation and fears.

    You also say only gays themselves support gay marriage, but that also clearly is not so, considering the percentage of the population that voted against Prop. 8.

    And no judge appointed by Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter will ever rule on the validity of the vote on Prop. 8.

    And you accuse the gays of fudging the issue? HAH!

    You are the pathetic one.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mtbr1975. Show mtbr1975's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Great video:

    http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-black-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-reilly-and-rashida-jones
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike1986. Show Mike1986's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    So is the current law in Massachusetts like it is in California? The law in California says that public school teachers are not required to teach anything about any kind of marriage.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]So is the current law in Massachusetts like it is in California? The law in California says that public school teachers are not required to teach anything about any kind of marriage.[/Quote]

    There is no such law in MA. What Goodridge did here was allow the education industry to pursue that particular aspect of their agenda. It just sounds scarier if you say that the law mandates it. The Prop 8 people are out of their California sun-baked minds.

    Goodridge was a thoroughly, eminently flawed decision, but other than redefining "marriage" in the law of the Commonwealth it did not have much greater effect.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]

    There is no such law in MA. What Goodridge did here was allow the education industry to pursue that particular aspect of their agenda. It just sounds scarier if you say that the law mandates it. The Prop 8 people are out of their California sun-baked minds.

    Goodridge was a thoroughly, eminently flawed decision, but other than redefining "marriage" in the law of the Commonwealth it did not have much greater effect.[/Quote]


    Education industry? What are you talking about? We have MCAS standards and certain state laws as to educational rights, but most decision making on curriculum is done at the local level. There is no education CEO dictating to the districts an "agenda" for all to follow.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]
    Education industry? What are you talking about? We have MCAS standards and certain state laws as to educational rights, but most decision making on curriculum is done at the local level. There is no education CEO dictating to the districts an "agenda" for all to follow.[/Quote]


    industry (noun) - the people or companies engaged in a particular kind of commercial enterprise.

    Education is a commercial enterprise, unless of course you believe teachers and administrators will continue to show up if you stop paying them.

    The "agenda" doesn't come from a CEO. An industry by definition doesn't have one singular CEO, but many. And often that many will collude to some ends ("People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public..."). The resultant "agenda" arises from the mindset growing in education that teachers have a responsibility to engineer good little progressives. For more information, read an article called Why We Banned Legos, widely available online.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    I do not associate "industry" with education. Industries generally produce "products" that can be bought and sold and can generate a profit. That's not what teachers do. Sure they get paid, but most everyone does in some fashion. Is there a law enforcement industry? How about a religion industry? There are no real definable products in these examples and profit should not be an underlying motivation. Why is this important? Well, too many people try to treat education like a private business that produces educated students like so many widgets. It just does not work that way.

    And yes, there are general attitudes about how to educate folks: all professions have these to a certain extent. But having common touchstones does not mean that there is not a variety of views. Indeed, teachers cherish their independence from administation efforts to control their work. And you are right there are probably more progressives in education than elsewhere: it should not be surprising that people who devote their lives (often at low pay) to kids as opposed to profit may be liberal in their outlook.

    Interesting article about the lego story. I am sure it is being debated in many educational forums. And "debate" is the operative word.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]

    [/Quote]

    I do not associate "industry" with education. Industries generally produce "products" that can be bought and sold and can generate a profit.


    Students.

    Your lack of vision stems from an adherence to "products" as things one holds in their hand, and "profit" as cash; like so many on the left you categorize the social interactions of people into the economic and non-economic and hold them to be distinctly separate. But there are many other forms of products and profit at work in society, and they are as compelling as materials and cash.


    Is there a law enforcement industry? How about a religion industry?

    Yes and yes.


    There are no real definable products in these examples and profit should not be an underlying motivation.

    Profit is THE underlying motive. Profit -- be it cash or some other form of gain -- is why you got out of bed this morning.


    But having common touchstones does not mean that there is not a variety of views.

    Indeed. Some are simply apostate, anathema to the direction chosen by the controlling interests of the industry.


    And you are right there are probably more progressives in education than elsewhere: it should not be surprising that people who devote their lives (often at low pay) to kids as opposed to profit may be liberal in their outlook.

    Progressives are not liberals. And they don't "devote" their lives to kids. Have you seen the contracts their unions have won?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from towgunner77. Show towgunner77's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Why? Why all of a sudden is it so darn important to appease a small minority of this country and one that is defined strictly by the sex they choose to enjoy? I say it’s a product of a government controlled by special interest. And, it’s not the headline special interest groups i.e. energy companies etc, its social engineering groups like gays. The fact that this legislation did not pass with the popular vote in both California and Massachusetts the two marquee liberal utopias in this country is proof enough close to idea of gay marriage for good. The issue is no longer about bigotry or tolerance; it’s about our system of government being seriously threatened by judicial activism usurping the voters. How much farther will it go? Finally, I refuse to support a group of people that define themselves around sex. Sex is an indulgence, and the government has no business getting into any of that. Before the “gay rights movement” you could go off in private and do what ever you wanted to, provided the party(s) consented. No one stopped you. So, what has changed? You want more rights? Rights to dress and act effeminately? And you want legislation to protect you for that, or worse give you inordinate rights because you are(were) a repressed group? No! darn it no.

    I going to evoke my first amendment rights and have to courage to say something. What you do to each other is disgusting – that’s why you are having a hard time being “accepted.” I’ll tolerate you, but don’t ever ask me to accept your lifestyle – it is my right to believe what I want to believe. The evil inherent in your movement is exemplified by your attempts to indoctrinate children.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    towgunner -

    While I'll agree with you that the state has no business restricting the right of association (e.g., if I don't want to hire you because you're gay or black, there's no reason I should be forced to), the debate is about the lifestyle consequences of one's attractions. It's not just about sex; you can have homosexual sex, repeatedly, and still consider yourself straight. People just don't tend to talk about it until they're caught in an airport bathroom with a wide stance. The challenges for homosexuals arise when they want their lifestyle to be legally indistinguishable from your own. And is there any reason it should not be? What business does the state have defining marriage in the first place? It's a contractual agreement between consenting adults, nothing more. The straight nuclear family is not some fantastical cornerstone of human civilization. That just happens to be how the puritan far west has gotten by these past few centuries. We dropped witch burnings and laws against heresy, and we did just fine living among witches and heretics, didn't we?

    You are correct; Goodridge was a poor decision, and the CA Supreme Court has no legally valid oversight of Proposition 8 (the ACLU's claim that it represents a fundamental change to the CA Constitution is without merit). However, the original poster raises a valid concern. I was out in California in the fall, and Proposition 8 was a big fight out there. Among the claims made by the pro-Prop 8 retards was that schools would be required to "teach" homosexual marriage; that canard seemed to pick up steam after a teacher improperly brought her students to her gay marriage ceremony. In fact, when people out west found out we were from MA, the "gay marriage" question came up more than once, and the subtext of the question was more or less whether Goodridge had brought about the end of all social order out here.

    But while we're speaking of inherent evil exemplified by indoctrination of children, how is that distinct from government schooling as a whole?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    Scarecrow: I find your post rather ironic. You accuse me of being part of the "left" because of an overemphasis on economics and then you proceed to retranslate "industry", "product" and "profit" to embrace concepts falling under "livelihood", "result" and "benefit". Seeing things in strictly economic terms is indeed part of the leftist (Marxist) paradigm. But you seem to embrace it in your language as opposed to me. Amusing.

    And I know teachers and the contracts that unions have won. You have to care for kids to make the commitment to teach and the contracts are adequate, but not great. I have seen both sides. I am a teacher, but I ran my own business for 15 years before that. I took a pay cut when I made the switch so I did not "profit" in an economic sense. I did however, "benefit" from the switch in a philosophical sense. The kids seem to appreciate my efforts too.

    Things are more complicated than you are ready to believe. "Indoctrination of children" is a lot of crap: there is no master plan of the education "industry". Remind me: what was the scarecrow looking for in the Wizard of Oz?
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says


    You accuse me of being part of the "left" because of an overemphasis on economics and then you proceed to retranslate "industry", "product" and "profit" to embrace concepts falling under "livelihood", "result" and "benefit".

    Not at all, you're simply not capable of digesting what you've read. "Industry" is not "retranslated" from "livelihood". One person has a livelihood. But the education industry is not one person. You think education is teachers and principals, and nothing else?


    Seeing things in strictly economic terms is indeed part of the leftist (Marxist) paradigm. But you seem to embrace it in your language as opposed to me. Amusing.

    The mechanics have nothing to do with the message, but if all you've read is Marx and Engels, then I suppose you might find it "ironic" and "amusing". Broaden your horizons a bit.


    I did however, "benefit" from the switch in a philosophical sense. The kids seem to appreciate my efforts too.

    So you did it for you. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you found some happiness that transcended your income level. Everyone should be so lucky. But don't pretend it was some altruistic gesture.


    Remind me: what was the scarecrow looking for in the Wizard of Oz?

    In truth nothing; he was already the wisest man in Oz. Didn't you read the book?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]prop 8 means no one accepts you people as being anywhere close to normal.

    [/Quote]

    What cowardice it is to hold that the law should protect you from what you consider abnormal, as opposed to truly harmful.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]I would suggest that there are millions of laws on the books.

    And that many of these laws are not designed to protect us from things that are "truly harmful".[/Quote]

    And I would suggest that it is cowardice that creates and persists these laws, and that to embrace them is to be devoid of the courage of the convictions to which a member of a free society lays claim.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheScarecrow. Show TheScarecrow's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]


    all races and major religions consider you people abnormal. that's what prop 8 says. you just don't seem to get it, except from your spa pool buddies[/Quote]

    You presumptuous fool, I'm a straight WASP. To your eyes -- once I got close enough for your myopia -- I'm as normal as they come. What you lack is the courage to accept the consequences of a free society, even the ones you don't like. You and those like you are blights upon the republic.

    What Proposition 8 says is that California is dominated by idiots...which I don't think was ever in much doubt.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from SNAPPA52. Show SNAPPA52's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    NO SUCH THING, PURE PROPAGANDA ON THE RIGHT WING CULT NUTS...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SNAPPA52. Show SNAPPA52's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    FOR ALL YOU IGNORANT UN-AMERICAN RIGHT WING NUTS, PLEASE ALLOW ME TO REMIND YOU WHAT EXACTLY A "LIBERAL" IS:

    Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal.[1]
    Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for a number of principles, including freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property,[2] free markets,[2] and a transparent system of government.[3] All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.[4]
    Modern liberalism has its roots in the Age of Enlightenment and rejects many foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, established religion, and economic protectionism.[5][6][7] Liberals argued that economic systems based on free markets are more efficient and generate more prosperity.[8]
    The first modern liberal state was the United States of America[9], founded on the principle that "all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to insure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed."[10] This said, much of early liberal thought originated in and influenced the politics of the United Kingdom

    So when you "bash" a liberal remember they are the "true" Americans just like our founding fathers were.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]


    kill a libtard for Jesus.


    bring America back to the great nation it was before the bolsheviks and deviates took over[/Quote]


    Scarecrow: Loser is just playing with you. Everyone knows he goes to bed every night with a blow up doll of Joe Stalin. I point this out for strictly altruistic reasons: I take no pleasure in this revealing this information ;).
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mike1986. Show Mike1986's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]

    You presumptuous fool, I'm a straight WASP. To your eyes -- once I got close enough for your myopia -- I'm as normal as they come. What you lack is the courage to accept the consequences of a free society, even the ones you don't like. You and those like you are blights upon the republic.

    What Proposition 8 says is that California is dominated by idiots...which I don't think was ever in much doubt.[/Quote]It depends what you mean by idiots, politically I wouldn't say California is dominated by idiots, 48% of California's population voted No on Proposition 8. When it comes to sports fans of California based teams, then it's dominated by idiots.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    What the Prop. 8 campaingn says

    [Quote]no matter what you think, no one accepts your cause.[/Quote]


    No one? You have eyes but you do not see. You have ears but you do not hear.

    Maybe your sheet is too tightly wrapped.
     
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