" Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

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    " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100426/people_nm/us_books_georgewbush_2

    I haven't been able to stomach political diatribes; espionage or any kind of non-fiction/fiction material. I like writing over reading. 

    GW has been an interesting person to say the least.  I voted for him twice.
    I rank him the 5th best president behind Washington, Lincoln; FDR and Reagan.

    His will be the first book I'm going to try to read cover to cover since my junior year in high school ( 20 years ).

    As far as his problematic downside.
    I rank him behind any number of bad presidents.

    He didn't have a sex scandal (Clinton/JFK); he wasn't accused of trading arms for citizens ( Iran-Contra ); and he wasn't asked to end an ill-concieved war with a small inconsequental region ( Vietnam ) in the late 1970's.

    Though some would say he started one; the other branches of government did have a role to play and they didn't play it. 

    Not enough to make a difference anyway.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    5th best? You know you lose all semblance of sanity when you throw out that BS... 5th worst? Closer than 5th best...

    BTW - I voted for him twice and if the same elections were held today, knowing what I now know, I would vote for him twice again. But he stunk as President!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    "His will be the first book I'm going to try to read cover to cover since my junior year in high school ( 20 years ). "

    'Nuff said on this guy's expertise on most anything.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    and he wasn't asked to end an ill-concieved war with a small inconsequental region ( Vietnam ) in the late 1970's. Though some would say he started one; the other branches of government did have a role to play and they didn't play it.  Not enough to make a difference anyway.
    Posted by Manuscriptx


    I think you are framing this so he doesn't have to take responsibility. This was Bush's war. He pushed for it. It was ill-conceived and it caused us to lose sight of our objective and become entangled in the region (it also removed an important counter weight to Iran). I actually like Bush. I think he made a lot of good reforms to the FBI and CIA, and was a great national security president. However, Iraq was a bad idea. Costly, misguided and detriminental to the war on terror.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from aynnie. Show aynnie's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    I'll take a sex scandal any day over what this guy did.  Give me the BJ instead of the war.

    I do not think that GWB is a bad man - just a man who was in over his head and trusted the wrong people.  I think Dick Cheney misled him terribly and he realized it too late.  But do I think he is evil like Cheney and that nasty little gerbil Karl Rove?  No, I don't.

    Rove's book should have been filed in the Fiction section - it was nothing but BS - everyone knows it and he knows everyone knows it.  He has no shame.

    As an aside, I would personally be grateful if President Bush calls himself an alcoholic (not that I believe he is under any obligation to do so) - just because I think it would further the cause of getting help for people who need it - although there isn't nearly the stigma that there used to be, people still have a hard time with shame, right or wrong, and I think this would give some people courage to seek help.  Just my humble opinion.

    Because I come from a long line of good people who passed along nice, thick hair and pretty blue eyes - and also depression, alcoholism and a couple of other mental disorders thrown in for good measure.  The best defense is get it out in the open.

    I don't want to get into an argument with anyone - this is just a thought of mine.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Manuscriptx. Show Manuscriptx's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    I am framing it so he doesn't take all the blame. Why?  Because last time I checked; the constitution makes all three branches of government equally important.

    In 2003; ( not 2004 ) The democrat party still had control of the Senate by one vote. Politics was their bully;  not the president.  The Supreme Court can't use public opinion over 9/11 as an excuse not to act since they are infamous for Imminent Domain; a later decision they had no trouble making which put people out of their homes in favor of the land being used by corporate entities.

    Responsibility.  

    One of those long lost concepts in the meat grinder we call rationalization.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    I am framing it so he doesn't take all the blame. Why?  Because last time I checked; the constitution makes all three branches of government equally important. In 2003; ( not 2004 ) The democrat party still had control of the Senate by one vote. Politics was their bully;  not the president.  The Supreme Court can't use public opinion over 9/11 as an excuse not to act since they are infamous for Imminent Domain; a later decision they had no trouble making which put people out of their homes in favor of the land being used by corporate entities. Responsibility.   One of those long lost concepts in the meat grinder we call rationalization.
    Posted by Manuscriptx


    No president is every 100% to blame for war, but it was still his idea. You can't have it both ways, presidents that fight popular wars get all the credit, and those that fight unpopular ones shift blame to the other branches of government. There is also the issue of WMDs being the stated issue, which is the only reason congress voted for it. And the WMDs turned out not to be there. Then it became about Iraqi freedom. Either way, the war set us back, was costly, and resulted in a more secure and strong Iran.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Manuscriptx. Show Manuscriptx's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    It wasn't HIS idea it was HIS FATHER'S idea after Iraq had already attacked another country ( from 2003's point of view ) 12 years ago. Hans Blix being ousted a second time just gave Bush the excuse he needed to go further than his father. 

    If you want to talk about formal declarations (#1); full explainations on how the war would be paid for exactly(#2); what role would US. forces have after invasion(#3); and who exactly will control the oil fields (#4)

    -that should have been asked ( demanded ) by the legislature through commitee hearings of top command officials.  

    Why didn't they do that?  
    Why didn't they take their case to the supreme court? 

    The 1994/1995 legislature ( through Ken Starr's Independent Council ) had no trouble taking the executive branch to court to demand action or constitution clarity as to what the president is obligated to do ( like testify under oath in a civil deposition ) free from doing under executive privlige; or has a responsibility to do ( like ask congress for a formal war declaration ). 




     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Manuscriptx. Show Manuscriptx's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    I'm of a mind that George W. Bush would admit to pulling a few strings to get what he wanted which by results makes him far smarter than Barack Obama and his precious 60 vote filibuster proof majority.

    No one in his administration or conservative cronies blinked when Al Gore, John Kerry squawked over losing their elections. Sarah Palin makes a little noise in 2009 by calling Obamacare  " death panels ".  The tea-party protesters gain fame and all hell breaks loose in liberal circles.

    Go figure.


    You know something. 

    The term " sensitivity training " should be expanded to include a number of other things.  Like learning to deal with what people say; no matter how much you don't like it.  
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush : No president is every 100% to blame for war, but it was still his idea. You can't have it both ways, presidents that fight popular wars get all the credit, and those that fight unpopular ones shift blame to the other branches of government. There is also the issue of WMDs being the stated issue, which is the only reason congress voted for it. And the WMDs turned out not to be there. Then it became about Iraqi freedom. Either way, the war set us back, was costly, and resulted in a more secure and strong Iran.
    Posted by ProfessorPain

    This is why hind sight is always 20/20. Leading up to the war there was not one country or organization that didn't believe Iraq had WMD. The UN had a list of sites they wanted access to because they suspected WMD there.
    I didn't agree with it but I am smart enough to know that if Clinton (both), Congress and the POTUS all think there is something there they have intel we are not privy to. You can argue all you want about the how and why of the bad intel but no one can say it was ONLY Bush's call on WMD. Heck Gore was asking Clinton to go into Iraq in 1999 after their WMD so he could look like a strong leader before the 2000 election.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from lrecliner. Show lrecliner's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    I think it will take quite a few more years to see if our direct involvement in the ME was a good or bad move. Even GWB said it himself- "History will judge me". I think Bush and his Admin was consumed by trying to prevent another terrorist attack our soil and that earned him quite a few detractors in the process.

    To me where Bush failed miserably as a leader was Hurricane Katrina. I know all 3 levels on gov't play a role, but he did nothing.  Not the worst Pres in history, but he's got to be pretty close to the worst 2 term President
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    This book will serve as a primer for how not run the federal government of a first world superpower, so in that sense there will be much to digest and learn from. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100426/people_nm/us_books_georgewbush_2 I haven't been able to stomach political diatribes; espionage or any kind of non-fiction/fiction material. I like writing over reading.  GW has been an interesting person to say the least.  I voted for him twice. I rank him the 5th best president behind Washington, Lincoln; FDR and Reagan. His will be the first book I'm going to try to read cover to cover since my junior year in high school ( 20 years ). As far as his problematic downside. I rank him behind any number of bad presidents. He didn't have a sex scandal (Clinton/JFK); he wasn't accused of trading arms for citizens ( Iran-Contra ); and he wasn't asked to end an ill-concieved war with a small inconsequental region ( Vietnam ) in the late 1970's. Though some would say he started one; the other branches of government did have a role to play and they didn't play it.  Not enough to make a difference anyway.
    Posted by Manuscriptx


    5th best????  Wow, but if you include Reagan as #4, then you might have a point.

    Have you forgotten about the Federal Gov't response to Katrina?  People were trapped in their homes for days while the President was on vacation.  He actually said, "good job" to the head of FEMA for his handling of the disaster. 

    Have you forgotten the recession that started in 2007 that peaked with the complete meltdown of out finance industry?  Please remind me of the action took by Bush to curtail the recession before the melt down of the Finance Sector.

    Have you forgotten about the Iraq War?  Have you forgotten that the invasion was based on made up intelligence?  Have you forgotten about complete and utter mishandling of post war Iraq?  Who disbands one of the largest militaries in the world without at least getting their weapons?  Who outlaws a country's government workers without having their replacements in place?

    5th best.  After you've read Bush's book, read Fiasco or the any of the books written by Woodward about the Bush presidency.

    5th best - you need your head examined.  Not only was he not one of the best presidents, he wasn't even a good president.  I would put him among the 5 worst presidents.


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    In Response to " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush : 5th best????  Wow, but if you include Reagan as #4, then you might have a point. Have you forgotten about the Federal Gov't response to Katrina?  People were trapped in their homes for days while the President was on vacation.  He actually said, "good job" to the head of FEMA for his handling of the disaster.  Have you forgotten the recession that started in 2007 that peaked with the complete meltdown of out finance industry?  Please remind me of the action took by Bush to curtail the recession before the melt down of the Finance Sector. Have you forgotten about the Iraq War?  Have you forgotten that the invasion was based on made up intelligence?  Have you forgotten about complete and utter mishandling of post war Iraq?  Who disbands one of the largest militaries in the world without at least getting their weapons?  Who outlaws a country's government workers without having their replacements in place? 5th best.  After you've read Bush's book, read Fiasco or the any of the books written by Woodward about the Bush presidency. 5th best - you need your head examined.  Not only was he not one of the best presidents, he wasn't even a good president.  I would put him among the 5 worst presidents.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover

    He is not one of the best but lets us the facts not the BS liberal slant.

    Katrina - FEMA was ready to go into LA on Saturday, 24 hours AFTER they asked Nagin and Blanco to declare an emergency and request assistance. The feds can't go into a state until they are asked to do so. Blanco and Nagin said they had it covered. By the time they requested help it was too late. The response after can be criticized BUT I contend if Blanco and Nagin asked for assistance Saturday or Friday, when they SHOULD HAVE it would not have gotten to the point it did.
    Iraq - Everyone including Clinton had the same intel. There were no lies. They had bad intel and so did the rest of the world.
    Financial Meltdown - He did the same BS thing Obama did and neither worked. When you are ready to blame BOTH parties for the melt down you will be intellectually honest on the subject.
    Woodward - ROTFLMAO!! Really? Un-biased journalist? ROTFLMAO!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Manuscriptx. Show Manuscriptx's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    It's pretty pathetic how Bush critics like to do this little tap dance around certain circumstances.  

    Hurricane Katrina took just under a week to get from The Caribbean Islands to Florida then Louisiana. Up until Katrina Florida had a number of bad hurricanes; none of them caused any problems.  Who got the credit for that?  Jeb Bush.  

    One can assume that the governor of Florida; like any other state coordinates it's natural disaster relief efforts with the feds. Mississippi played the role of
    "the forgotten state" suffering major damage after Katrina but ( surprisingly ) it's local authorities had no trouble taking care of it's own people. 

    Hurricane Rita was the next storm after Katrina that gave Texas problems they eventually solved. California had major damage after it's wildfires between 2006 and 2008.  

    No collapse in the system there. 

    So.

    With the exception of one state.  Louisiana.  Bush critics point to that situation.  A situation only after the fact they gleefully call a failure at the federal level. 
    As for the governor and the mayor?   Well they don't really matter.  

    Not to Bush critics that want to put blame on the person they dislike the most.



     
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    I actually think Bush was a very good president. I just think history will show Iraq was a bad decision. But in his defense he made plenty of really great decisions as well. My only real criticisms of Bush are, he should have designated terrorists as enemy combatants (because we already had a process for handling enemy combatants in place, and it would have kept them from passing through our legal system), and he shouldn't have gone into Iraq. He completely restructured how America protects itself, and I think on the whole that was a good decision. He got rid of the wall between the CIA, FBI and other members of the intelligence community. He made it it easier for the FBI to fight terrorism, and the guy took terrorism seriously. What is more, I think he was basically a very decent man. I am sure I have a reputation for being very left wing on this forum, but the truth is, if given the choice between Bush and Clinton, I would probably go with Bush.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Manuscriptx. Show Manuscriptx's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush


    My dislikes about Bush are simple.

    After getting elected he became a moderate; not a conservative.  He's sympathetic towards illegal aliens. He worked with Ted Kennedy on the education bill only to get stabbed in the back.  The 2004 Medicare bill and the Iraq War being a complete mess.
     
    Unlike a liberal critic of The Bush Administration; a conservative critic like me sees things not for what they were but what they could have been.  Better. 

    - A true fiscal conservative would have waged the kind of war that needed to be waged asking for no more than $250 Billon for a total sweep n' clear operation to set up a governing authority in Iraq while making them pay us back in oil supplies. 

    - A strong national security/foreign policy conservative would have dammed the critics and taken out terrorists who held themselves up inside a mosque after the 2003 invasion; temporarily suspended international visas from the middle east and set up a coordinating commission to ensure both civil rights and border security on the northern and southern border of the U.S. 






     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    I actually think Bush was a very good president. I just think history will show Iraq was a bad decision. But in his defense he made plenty of really great decisions as well. My only real criticisms of Bush are, he should have designated terrorists as enemy combatants (because we already had a process for handling enemy combatants in place, and it would have kept them from passing through our legal system), and he shouldn't have gone into Iraq. He completely restructured how America protects itself, and I think on the whole that was a good decision. He got rid of the wall between the CIA, FBI and other members of the intelligence community. He made it it easier for the FBI to fight terrorism, and the guy took terrorism seriously. What is more, I think he was basically a very decent man. I am sure I have a reputation for being very left wing on this forum, but the truth is, if given the choice between Bush and Clinton, I would probably go with Bush.
    Posted by ProfessorPain

    I agree that I think he was/is a good man in general. My issues are fiscally. I voted for a (I hoped) conservative and got a RINO in fiscal policy. Along with a bunch of RINO's in Congress!
    Iraq was a war we would have been in even if Gore won in 2000. The intel was there and he made his call.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush : I agree that I think he was/is a good man in general. My issues are fiscally. I voted for a (I hoped) conservative and got a RINO in fiscal policy. Along with a bunch of RINO's in Congress! Iraq was a war we would have been in even if Gore won in 2000. The intel was there and he made his call.
    Posted by brat13


    Yes, but he ran as a compassionate conservative. He still wasn't a democrat in that regard. But I think Bush was concerned more about social programs than many other republicans. I don't know much about the compassionate conservative movement. But many of the religiously motivated conservatives I've met (including my old logic professor), tend to be fiscally liberal and socially conservative. Not all of them mind you. But most of the ones I've met.

    I have to disagree that we would have been in Iraq if Gore was president. Even when the intel was out, there were plenty of people challenging it. But no one wanted to be the guy who voted against a popular war to stop Iraq from getting weapons of mass destruction. Still it required Bush leading the charge to get congress to act (he specifically requested it). Also, the people handling the intelligence at the top level would have been appointed by Gore, and not Bush. Which I think would have impacted how the intelligence was filtered to the president. I do think Bush was a good guy, but I still tend to believe he was fishing for a reason to go to Iraq. Especially since our stated purpose shifted a number of times after the initial invasion (I think even Karl Rove basically said another reason would have been put forward if there was no intelligence on the WMDs).
     
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    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    Still it required Bush leading the charge to get congress to act (he specifically requested it). -------------------- Which was more than his predecessor did, and I supported that action - particularly the part where he gave the UN the finger.
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Oh, please!
    Shrub and Cheney concoct a scheme to invade Iraq ... remember that little Downing Street memo thingy? ... they insult and threaten the international community in the process ... they are found to be complete liars who have squandered thousands of lives and a trillion bucks ... they then run to the same U.N. they heretofore considered "insignificant" and whine because they can't get the international cooperation they feel they need!
    While I feel GW is basically a decent man, I cannot forgive or forget the heinous schemes of Cheney, Rove, Condi, Gonzalez and the rest of that nest of scum who nearly ruined this country!
     
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush : Yes, but he ran as a compassionate conservative. He still wasn't a democrat in that regard. But I think Bush was concerned more about social programs than many other republicans. I don't know much about the compassionate conservative movement. But many of the religiously motivated conservatives I've met (including my old logic professor), tend to be fiscally liberal and socially conservative. Not all of them mind you. But most of the ones I've met. I have to disagree that we would have been in Iraq if Gore was president. Even when the intel was out, there were plenty of people challenging it. But no one wanted to be the guy who voted against a popular war to stop Iraq from getting weapons of mass destruction. Still it required Bush leading the charge to get congress to act (he specifically requested it). Also, the people handling the intelligence at the top level would have been appointed by Gore, and not Bush. Which I think would have impacted how the intelligence was filtered to the president. I do think Bush was a good guy, but I still tend to believe he was fishing for a reason to go to Iraq. Especially since our stated purpose shifted a number of times after the initial invasion (I think even Karl Rove basically said another reason would have been put forward if there was no intelligence on the WMDs).
    Posted by ProfessorPain

    Gore begged Clinton to go into Iraq in 1999-2000 to shore up his strong on defense side.
    The intel was handled by Clinton appointees Tenent was CIA director from 1997-2004.
    Bob Woodward, in his book Plan of Attack,[33] wrote that Tenet privately lent his personal authority to the intelligence reports about weapons of mass destructionIraq. At a meeting on December 12, 2002, he assured Bush that the evidence against Saddam Hussein amounted to a "slam dunk case." (WMDs) in
    Freeh was the FBI Director until the summer of 2001 (1993-2001).
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush

    In Response to Re: " Decision Points " - by George W. Bush:
    The intel was handled by Clinton appointees Tenent was CIA director from 1997-2004. Bob Woodward , in his book Plan of Attack , [ 33 ] wrote that Tenet privately lent his personal authority to the intelligence reports about weapons of mass destruction Iraq ..
    Posted by brat13


    I stand corrected.
     
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