"DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : You are right.  However, it seems disingenous to claim such heartfelt support, but then not think that they are making the right call, the occasional dissenter notwithstanding.  So, what is the military objective achieved by permitting gay people to not only serve, but to do so in an overtly open manner?
    Posted by skeeter20


    How is it disengenous? One can support the military and disagree with one of its policies. Right now the problem is, gay people are being held to a different standard than straight people in the military, and many who don't "tell" are still being kicked out because others find out somehow. What is more, many military leaders and  many people in the military itself support changing the policy.
     
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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : 'it is my personal belief that allowing gays and lesbians to serve openly would be the right thing to do.  No matter how I look at the issue, I cannot escape being troubled by the fact that we have in place a policy which forces young men and women to lie about who they are in order to defend their fellow citizens.  For me, personally, it comes down to integrity -- theirs as individuals and ours as an institution" - Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff, and "occassional dissenter"
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Yes, that's one.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : How is it disengenous? One can support the military and disagree with one of its policies. Right now the problem is, gay people are being held to a different standard than straight people in the military, and many who don't "tell" are still being kicked out because others find out somehow. What is more, many military leaders and  many people in the military itself support changing the policy.
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    Gay people are not being held to a different standard, they are being held to the same standard, for anything that is related to the military.  Their sexual orientation is not a military imperative.
     
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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Gay people are not being held to a different standard, they are being held to the same standard, for anything that is related to the military.  Their sexual orientation is not a military imperative.
    Posted by skeeter20


    They are being held to a different standard, that is the point of don't ask don't tell. No one is going to get kicked out of the military for talking about their wife or husband, but a soldier who talks about his or her partner will be kicked out. And as I said, plenty who don't do anything overt have been kicked out for their sexual orientation. I would much rather have a policy that welcomes people regardless of sexual orientation, than one which makes sexual orientation a possible issue and grounds for being excluded or removed. And the military is, bya nd large, behind the policy shift. So what is the problem?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Gay people are not being held to a different standard, they are being held to the same standard, for anything that is related to the military.  Their sexual orientation is not a military imperative.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Separate is equal, eh skeeter?  Thanks for showing your colors :)
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : They are being held to a different standard, that is the point of don't ask don't tell. No one is going to get kicked out of the military for talking about their wife or husband, but a soldier who talks about his or her partner will be kicked out. And as I said, plenty who don't do anything overt have been kicked out for their sexual orientation. I would much rather have a policy that welcomes people regardless of sexual orientation, than one which makes sexual orientation a possible issue and grounds for being excluded or removed. And the military is, bya nd large, behind the policy shift. So what is the problem?
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    Same standard, no matter how you spin it.  Being of a different sexual persuasission creates the need for a different standard.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Separate is equal, eh skeeter?  Thanks for showing your colors :)
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    What on earth are you talking about?  How did you leap to that crazy conclusion?  Oh, I forgot, you're a liberal, who respects the military, as long as they are open and affirming of gays.

    What-a-tool.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Same standard, no matter how you spin it.  Being of a different sexual persuasission creates the need for a different standard.
    Posted by skeeter20


    It is absolutely a different standard. Homosexuals can be kicked out for their sexual orientation, heterosexuals cannot.

    I am sorry, you don't have me convinced at all.

    And by the way, disagreeing with a military policy, doesn't mean you don't have respect for the military. I have family members who serve, and they feel the same way I do. But one of the great things about military people, is they don't let their personal feelings on an issue like this interefere with their performance as a soldier.
     
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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Rather a BIG one.
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Not really.  It is the guy or gal on the front lines that re the big ones.  But, you progressives are reactive to authority:  When they agree with you , they are everything.  When they don't they are knuckle draggers like me.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Not really.  It is the guy or gal on the front lines that re the big ones.  But, you progressives are reactive to authority:  When they agree with you , they are everything.  When they don't they are knuckle draggers like me.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Well the military is pretty much going along with the transition away from the policy. So I don't really see the problem.
     
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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Well the military is pretty much going along with the transition away from the policy. So I don't really see the problem.
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    I agree, the military will plow forth, despite their being no military objective that is enhanced by such an idea.I'm actually glad they are doing so, and have no problem with it.  But, I find it interesting that no one has been able to articulate how this makes our military more able to meet its objective.  this is just progressive feel-good stuff.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    Skeeter: It will make our military more able to meet its objective by increasing the number of people willing to serve. But that isn't the point. We are terminating the policy, because the policy is wrong. The Military used to be segregated, and we desegregated it because the policy was morally wrong. One could have easily argued, as you are now, that it didn't serve any military objective (particularly since that was a time when there were very real tensions between blacks and whites), but we ended it on moral, not strategic, grounds.
     
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    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : I agree, the military will plow forth, despite their being no military objective that is enhanced by such an idea.I'm actually glad they are doing so, and have no problem with it.  But, I find it interesting that no one has been able to articulate how this makes our military more able to meet its objective.  this is just progressive feel-good stuff.
    Posted by skeeter20


    I guess desegregation was just more progressive feel-good stuff then as well. Sometimes we do things because they are the right thing to do, because we are a moral people. We don't limit ourselves to enacting policies and legislation based on practicality alone.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : I guess desegregation was just more progressive feel-good stuff then as well. Sometimes we do things because they are the right thing to do, because we are a moral people. We don't limit ourselves to enacting policies and legislation based on practicality alone.
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    Not the same thing.  Sexual preference is a choice.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Not the same thing.  Sexual preference is a choice.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Genetics belies you.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    Skeeter: It will make our military more able to meet its objective by increasing the number of people willing to serve. But that isn't the point. We are terminating the policy, because the policy is wrong. The Military used to be segregated, and we desegregated it because the policy was morally wrong. One could have easily argued, as you are now, that it didn't serve any military objective (particularly since that was a time when there were very real tensions between blacks and whites), but we ended it on moral, not strategic, grounds.
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    Progressives simply don't nderstand the role of the military.  I wantthe best peopl out there defending us, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or any other variable.  But, the push to repeal DADT simply is hubris.  It defocuses the military from its core objective, protecting us.  More ink is spilled on this worthless, useless issue than uparmoring HMV's, body armor, etc.  It seems it is more important to the progressives that the military be inclusive that darn good.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Genetics belies you.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    Riiight.  So, show me the science.

    You can't, because it doesn't exist.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : I choose sheep. Can I serve my country?
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    I hope so.  Sheep don't complain about the uniforms as much.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Not the same thing.  Sexual preference is a choice.
    Posted by skeeter20


    No it isn't. Read any of the research on the subject. It really isn't a choice. I mean, do you choose to be heterosexual? Because if you are actively making the decision to be straight, I would think that means you are actually gay or very confused about your sexuality. I know I don't choose to be straight. I just know what I like. It is like an instinct. The argument that you are choosing your orientation has no basis in science or peoples' personal experiences. What we choose is who we have sex with. We choose whether we act on our sexual orientations or not.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Progressives simply don't nderstand the role of the military.  I wantthe best peopl out there defending us, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or any other variable.  But, the push to repeal DADT simply is hubris.  It defocuses the military from its core objective, protecting us.  More ink is spilled on this worthless, useless issue than uparmoring HMV's, body armor, etc.  It seems it is more important to the progressives that the military be inclusive that darn good.
    Posted by skeeter20


    Progressives fully understand the role of the military. But it is also subject to the same morality we are all subject to. We don't allow the military to violate our notions of right and wrong, because it achieves a military objective. And we don't allow an immoral military policy to continue, because it doesn't achieve a specific military objective. As someone else pointed out, it didn't achieve a military objective to desegregate the military, and it in fact increased tension in the units. But they got over it, and in the long term it achieved an important moral (not military) objective.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : No it isn't. Read any of the research on the subject. It really isn't a choice. I mean, do you choose to be heterosexual? Because if you are actively making the decision to be straight, I would think that means you are actually gay or very confused about your sexuality. I know I don't choose to be straight. I just know what I like. It is like an instinct. The argument that you are choosing your orientation has no basis in science or peoples' personal experiences. What we choose is who we have sex with. We choose whether we act on our sexual orientations or not.
    Posted by ProfessorPain


    Well, I will concede the "choice" is not a great word to use here, but it is not genetic.  Perhaps it is environment?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Progressives fully understand the role of the military. But it is also subject to the same morality we are all subject to. We don't allow the military to violate our notions of right and wrong, because it achieves a military objective. And we don't allow an immoral military policy to continue, because it doesn't achieve a specific military objective. As someone else pointed out, it didn't achieve a military objective to desegregate the military, and it in fact increased tension in the units. But they got over it, and in the long term it achieved an important moral (not military) objective.

    I think you have done a fine job showing that progressives do not understand the mission and activities of the military.
    Posted by ProfessorPain

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Weiss101. Show Weiss101's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Well, I will concede the "choice" is not a great word to use here, but it is not genetic.  Perhaps it is environment?
    Posted by skeeter20


    There is absolutely no proof that it is or is not a choice, or that it is or is not environmental.  Likewise, there is absolutely no proof that being heterosexual is or is not a choice, or that it is or is not environmental. 

    It's one of the mysteries of life that have yet to be demystified.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    Let's repeal half of DADT, and see how it goes.  The only question is which half.  Should we repeal the Don't Ask?  Or should we repeal the Don't Tell?




     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ProfessorPain. Show ProfessorPain's posts

    Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!

    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment!:
    In Response to Re: "DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL" Our Brave and Honorable Service Members Deserve Better Treatment! : Well, I will concede the "choice" is not a great word to use here, but it is not genetic.  Perhaps it is environment?
    Posted by skeeter20


    I don't know what it is. I know that once sexual orientation is established, most people don't regard it as a choice. I am sure there are people out there who "go the other way" because of a trauma and therefore some choice is involved (the woman who was raped and wants nothing to do with men for example). But I think most of us, just recognize on a gut level, this is what I like.
     
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