WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

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    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : I've responded before.  Build it.  Freedom of religion is something cowards like bin Laden will never be able to even grasp.  It sends a message, and that message is F U.
    Posted by GreginMeffa


    Exactly.
     
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    In Response to WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
      FROM GROUND ZERO ........  HAVE WE GONE "SOFT" OR JUST PLAIN "STUPID" ?????    WAKE UP AMERICA !!!!    WHAT SAY YOU ?????
    Posted by Bill-806


    What say I?

    It's called freedom of Religion.  TRUE AMERICANS, believe in this right and don't have a problem with it.

    Grow up.  You're a cowardly, yellow racist.

    YOu're posts remind me of Daniel Carver on the Howard Stern SHow. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : No, I studied mostly medieval Christianity. Please don't make assumptions about me based on one post. The problem with your analysis is you confound christianity with civilizations and countries that happen to be Christian. Just as the OP is doing with Islam. To blame Christianity for the slaughter of indiginous peoples is simply unfair. What you had in these instances was people violating the tenets of Christianity in order to achieve political and economic aims. But for all the harm you can point to, you can also point to a great deal of good that was done in the name of Jesus. This is pretty much true of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths. They've all been used to justify bad and good things. Another thing to keep in mind is many of the great leaders who converted to christianity, only did so because it was politically useful. So you had an awful lot of giving lip service to Christianity, and using Christian teachings to justify conquest and slaughter. And yes, you did have serious mistreatment of Jews, and rampant anti semitism. These things cannot be denied. But you also had the growth of universities, just war theory, etc. The history of Christianity is marked by frequent tension between the peaceful teachings of the new testament, and the violent expansion of Christian civilization.  Keep in mind, I don't disagree with you that bad things occured in the name of Christianity. I just think it is a gross oversimplification to focus only on the bad. There was also plenty of good. One of the acheivments of Christianity was a cutlural unification of Europe that it could be argued greatly mitigated internal conflict.
    Posted by JaySev2010



    In very very brief....


    Well the Church increasingly inserted itself into politics as the Roman empire declined and exercised great power through the so-called "Dark Ages."  And it had great influence over rulers in medieval times.  I think it's fair to attribute a lot of the suffering dealt out in the name of Christianity  by Christian rulers, given the church's very ambitious insertion of itself into politics and power.
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : In very very brief.... Well the Church increasingly inserted itself into politics as the Roman empire declined and exercised great power through the so-called "Dark Ages."  And it had great influence over rulers in medieval times.  I think it's fair to attribute a lot of the suffering dealt out in the name of Christianity  by Christian rulers, given the church's very ambitious insertion of itself into politics and power.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    But you are doing exactly what the OP is doing. You are focusing on the instances of abuse, and not placing any of that into any kind of context. In short, you are creating a caricature of Christianity, and ignoring the many people within the Church who actively promoted peace. You are just repeating the same old "the Christian west is always wrong" song we heard so often from far left academics. The fact is, you are talking about a brutal age. The Native americans weren't any more peaceful than the Christians who slaughtered them. There was plenty of violence to go around on both sides of the conflicts you describe. Why Islam itself was more actively spread through violence than was Christianity. You can always point to serious failings of the institutions Christianity produced. But those institutions always had to contend with the central message of Christianity which was peace, not war. And similar things can be said of Islam. Modern day terrorists have to contend with the fact that the Koran comes down against a tactic like terrorism. I am not an apologist for Christianity, nor am on the other side. My interest in history has always been to take an even-handed approach. To avoid a narrative that plays up one side against another.

    And to your point. One of the great benefits of the Church inserting itself was it helped produce more peace within Christendom (failing frequently when it came to dealing with those outside Christendom), and it created much stabliity. But even so, the Church produced champions of peace who took proselytizing seriously and weren't as jaded as many of their contemporaries. Particularly as you move more into the modern era, you start to see some real good come out of Christianity. The entire civil rights movement in the US was built on a religious foundation, mostly Christian.

    You can attack Christianity all you want, but the fact remains it played a vital role in the promotion of human rights, the abolition movement in the US, helping the poor and continues to do so today.

    I think your problem is you have a fundamentally negative attitude toward the western world. Just as the OPs problem is he has way too postitive an attitude of the western world and way too negative an attitude toward the remainder of the world. A good historian has no country. He does not allow his political beliefs or the concerns of his day, to interfere with his reading of history.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JaySev2010. Show JaySev2010's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    Whatisnow, I have to ask you what you studied in school because it obviously wasn't history.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : But you are doing exactly what the OP is doing. You are focusing on the instances of abuse, and not placing any of that into any kind of context. In short, you are creating a caricature of Christianity, and ignoring the many people within the Church who actively promoted peace. You are just repeating the same old "the Christian west is always wrong" song we heard so often from far left academics. The fact is, you are talking about a brutal age. The Native americans weren't any more peaceful than the Christians who slaughtered them. There was plenty of violence to go around on both sides of the conflicts you describe. Why Islam itself was more actively spread through violence than was Christianity. You can always point to serious failings of the institutions Christianity produced. But those institutions always had to contend with the central message of Christianity which was peace, not war. And similar things can be said of Islam. Modern day terrorists have to contend with the fact that the Koran comes down against a tactic like terrorism. I am not an apologist for Christianity, nor am on the other side. My interest in history has always been to take an even-handed approach. To avoid a narrative that plays up one side against another. And to your point. One of the great benefits of the Church inserting itself was it helped produce more peace within Christendom (failing frequently when it came to dealing with those outside Christendom), and it created much stabliity. But even so, the Church produced champions of peace who took proselytizing seriously and weren't as jaded as many of their contemporaries. Particularly as you move more into the modern era, you start to see some real good come out of Christianity. The entire civil rights movement in the US was built on a religious foundation, mostly Christian. You can attack Christianity all you want, but the fact remains it played a vital role in the promotion of human rights, the abolition movement in the US, helping the poor and continues to do so today. I think your problem is you have a fundamentally negative attitude toward the western world. Just as the OPs problem is he has way too postitive an attitude of the western world and way too negative an attitude toward the remainder of the world. A good historian has no country. He does not allow his political beliefs or the concerns of his day, to interfere with his reading of history.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    You're going to posture as an even-minded neutral observer, and then personally attack me based on your claims that I am merely repeating what a far left person said, and that I hate the west? 

    1.  You are absolutely an apologist for Christianity.  Reread what you wrote:  We can excuse Christian states who crusaded and conquered with ample Church support because it was generally a violent era and their "message" was peace. 

    Whatever, the old church was extremely cruel and violent, and the fact that some of its members weren't does not excuse or mitigate the cruelty or violence in any way shape or form.

    2.    Anything I've said was a counter-point to Bill's question.  Reread the thread anyway to catch my drift.

    3.  You want to manufacture a debate about whether or not I hate the west, or whether or not I am a "far left academic" or about whether or not Christianity is bad.  I want no part of any of the above.

    4.  It's the same  as with the abortion debate.  You don't like something, so you insult it.  It's either that I'm making "ivory tower arguments" or that I "hate the West" (how you get that from a critique of Christianity 0-1800 A.D. is beyond me). 


    You don't know me or what I know.  I'm not going to write a textbook on a BDC thread just to convince you that I know what I'm talking about.

     And I'm not going to be lectured by someone posing as an expert based on .... college classes?  (HAH!  If you're going to refer to what was taught in school rather than personal research, you might not want to hang your hat on college.  Grad. school is the first time study actually gets serious)

    So from my heart and with all due respect, f*ck you. 



    [QUOTE]
     You are just repeating the same old "the Christian west is always wrong" song we heard so often from far left academics...I think your problem is you have a fundamentally negative attitude toward the western world.
    Posted by JaySev2010[/QUOTE]


    I want a discussion with someone like that no more than I want it with Whatnow3, Hawkeye01, ItsATravesty, AZPAT, or OscarBozachT00.

    LOL.  As if someone with "Whatisitnow YOU S*CK" as their BDC picture is looking for an honest debate....
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
      FROM GROUND ZERO ........  HAVE WE GONE "SOFT" OR JUST PLAIN "STUPID" ?????    WAKE UP AMERICA !!!!    WHAT SAY YOU ?????
    Posted by Bill-806


    Muslims didn't perpetrate 911, the neo-cons did. The proof is overwhelming. But as long as the sheep get their "news" from the proven liars in the media, they'll continue to take it up the buttt.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

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    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : Muslims didn't perpetrate 911, the neo-cons did. The proof is overwhelming. But as long as the sheep get their "news" from the proven liars in the media, they'll continue to take it up the buttt.
    Posted by SpankUveryMuch


    Same old Sheepy.  Stll chasing his tail.  How is WWIII progressing?   Any day now....
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

       "LET ME BE CLEAR"........  JUST FOR THE RECORD, IM NOT AGAINST FREEDOM OF ANY AND ALL RELIGIONS, IT'S JUST THE KNOWN FACT OF THE "SLEEPERS" THAT COMES ALONG WITH IT !!!    "SLEEPERS" TWO BLOCKS FROM GROUND ZERO IS SOME WHAT "FROSTING" !!!!
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
       "LET ME BE CLEAR"........  JUST FOR THE RECORD, IM NOT AGAINST FREEDOM OF ANY AND ALL RELIGIONS, IT'S JUST THE KNOWN FACT OF THE "SLEEPERS" THAT COMES ALONG WITH IT !!!    "SLEEPERS" TWO BLOCKS FROM GROUND ZERO IS SOME WHAT "FROSTING" !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    You`re wasting your time Bill. I`m guessing that these liberal clowns probably support amnesty and opening the borders.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    Since when do we prevent people from constructing religious structures? It is a free country, and freedom of religion is part of that. If you don't like people building a mosque in NY, then you should move to Denmark or Switzerland.
    Posted by JaySev2010


    The location is not the result of some radom " let's see what land is available" thought process.  It is deliberate, and it is evil.

    The point you are missingis that radical islamists always build mosques on top of their conquests.  In the age of terrorism, the world towers was a conquest.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : The location is not the result of some radom " let's see what land is available" thought process.  It is deliberate, and it is evil. The point you are missingis that radical islamists always build mosques on top of their conquests.  In the age of terrorism, the world towers was a conquest.
    Posted by skeeter20
      THANK YOU SKEETER.....WELL SAID !!!!
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : The location is not the result of some radom " let's see what land is available" thought process.  It is deliberate, and it is evil. The point you are missingis that radical islamists always build mosques on top of their conquests.  In the age of terrorism, the world towers was a conquest.
    Posted by skeeter20


    You are just making stuff up.  No facts, just your own bias at work.  Any proof these people are "radical Islamists" intent on building a mosque on a conquest?  No. 
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ :   THANK YOU SKEETER.....WELL SAID !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    Skeeter: you are in trouble if an unthinking gasbag supports your ideas. 

    Still waiting on that legal argument to stop the mosque...  You all probably think that First Amendment is some liberal concoction to subvert the nation.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from taxmeintooblivion. Show taxmeintooblivion's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    My my.. someone is feeling holier that others.

    Quote all the laws you want.. that doesn't make it right.
    Yeah.. the law obviously has no morals, only a diminishing number of people do. 
     
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    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : Skeeter: you are in trouble if an unthinking gasbag supports your ideas.  Still waiting on that legal argument to stop the mosque...  You all probably think that First Amendment is some liberal concoction to subvert the nation.
    Posted by Reubenhop



    Come on, Ruben.  You seem to be a student of history.  You know what I say is true.

     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : The religion is not at fault, the people who committed the crime are at fault.  Basic.  Now give us the legal reason as to how you can stop this mosque.  You are not just venting from pure emotion and irrationality are you?
    Posted by Reubenhop


    The religion is at fault, it teaches world domination by force.

    Legally, I don't see any argument to stop the building, but that is not the point, it is the only way you know how to argue.

    What is being argued here is a matter of the heart.  the muslims building that mosque do not have love for us  in their heart over this.  This is a victory mosque.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : The religion is at fault, it teaches world domination by force. Legally, I don't see any argument to stop the building, but that is not the point, it is the only way you know how to argue. What is being argued here is a matter of the heart.  the muslims building that mosque do not have love for us  in their heart over this.  This is a victory mosque.
    Posted by skeeter20
     SKEETER........  TALKING TO REUBY  ("REUBY DON'T TAKE YOUR LOVE TO TOWN" )  IS LIKE DICK WILLIAMS TALKING TO  GEORGE SCOTT IN 1967 !!!!
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    My my.. someone is feeling holier that others. Quote all the laws you want.. that doesn't make it right. Yeah.. the law obviously has no morals, only a diminishing number of people do. 
    Posted by taxmeintooblivion


    There is nothing moral in trying to shut down a mosque.  Nothing legal either.  Prejudice is immoral.
     
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    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : Come on, Ruben.  You seem to be a student of history.  You know what I say is true.
    Posted by skeeter20


    I am a student of history.  Obviously you do not know it. 
     
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    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ :  SKEETER........  TALKING TO REUBY  ("REUBY DON'T TAKE YOUR LOVE TO TOWN" )  IS LIKE DICK WILLIAMS TALKING TO  GEORGE SCOTT IN 1967 !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    Ha Ha.  Do you have a legal reason to shut down the mosque?  Or are you empty of actual facts and ideas?
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : The religion is at fault, it teaches world domination by force. Legally, I don't see any argument to stop the building, but that is not the point, it is the only way you know how to argue. What is being argued here is a matter of the heart.  the muslims building that mosque do not have love for us  in their heart over this.  This is a victory mosque.
    Posted by skeeter20


    You don't know the religion either.  Prejudice stells you to stop the mosque.  That is not in your "heart", not at all.  Try your irrational fears, wherever they may be based.
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : Ha Ha.  Do you have a legal reason to shut down the mosque?  Or are you empty of actual facts and ideas?
    Posted by Reubenhop
      YES I DO...............  BECAUSE, "THEY" KILLED OVER 3000 PEOPLE ON 9/11, AND DON'T FORGET THE PLANE THAT HIT THE PENTAGON, AS WELL AS THE ONE THAT WAS GOING TO HIT THE WHITE HOUSE !!!........ IS THAT LEGAL ENOUGH FOR YOU AND YOUR LIBERAL WAYS ???  THE ACTUAL REASON IS THAT THE BUILDING THEY ARE LOOKING AT IS "HISTORICAL" AND WATCH & SEE IF THAT BUILDING GETS LISTED TO BE "PRESERVED", THUS THE MOSQUE WILL NOT BE LOCATED IN THE SHADOWS OF GROUND ZERO. AS SKEETER SAID,  "THEY" JUST WANT THAT LOCATION TO RUB OUR NOSES IN IT !!!!!
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : I am a student of history.  Obviously you do not know it. 
    Posted by Reubenhop


    You are right, I didn't know you were a student of history.  Maybe you have not had any exposure to the middle east, or depend on socialst perspectives like that of Melissa Rossi.

     But, OK big guy, three significant mosques built upon conquered sanctuaries/places of worship:

    The mosque in Jerusalem (Al Agsa)
    The mosque in Bethlehem (Omar)
    The mosque Constantinople (Hagia Sophia)

    All built upon the conquered ruins of jewish and christian churches, purposefully, after victories of conquest in those areas.

    The point is, that culturally, religiously, how ever you want to look at it, this is their reason for selecting this location.  And, you call us the hateful ones.

    But, I could give you a thousand examples, but you would just ignore the evidence or change the subject.
     
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    Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........

    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........:
    In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : You don't know the religion either.  Prejudice stells you to stop the mosque.  That is not in your "heart", not at all.  Try your irrational fears, wherever they may be based.
    Posted by Reubenhop


    Oh, Ruben, it is not fear, trust me on that.  It is having dealt with people in /from the middle east for most of my career, I can tell you most westerners do not get them at a pycological level.  I don't think you do either.

    Legally, nothing that can or should be done.

    Morally, this is an outrage, and shows the true heart of Islam.
     

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