Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........
posted at 7/16/2010 2:40 PM EDT
In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........
In Response to Re: WAKE UP AMERICA, A 13 FLOOR MOSQUE 2 BLOCKS........ : But you are doing exactly what the OP is doing. You are focusing on the instances of abuse, and not placing any of that into any kind of context. In short, you are creating a caricature of Christianity, and ignoring the many people within the Church who actively promoted peace. You are just repeating the same old "the Christian west is always wrong" song we heard so often from far left academics. The fact is, you are talking about a brutal age. The Native americans weren't any more peaceful than the Christians who slaughtered them. There was plenty of violence to go around on both sides of the conflicts you describe. Why Islam itself was more actively spread through violence than was Christianity. You can always point to serious failings of the institutions Christianity produced. But those institutions always had to contend with the central message of Christianity which was peace, not war. And similar things can be said of Islam. Modern day terrorists have to contend with the fact that the Koran comes down against a tactic like terrorism. I am not an apologist for Christianity, nor am on the other side. My interest in history has always been to take an even-handed approach. To avoid a narrative that plays up one side against another. And to your point. One of the great benefits of the Church inserting itself was it helped produce more peace within Christendom (failing frequently when it came to dealing with those outside Christendom), and it created much stabliity. But even so, the Church produced champions of peace who took proselytizing seriously and weren't as jaded as many of their contemporaries. Particularly as you move more into the modern era, you start to see some real good come out of Christianity. The entire civil rights movement in the US was built on a religious foundation, mostly Christian. You can attack Christianity all you want, but the fact remains it played a vital role in the promotion of human rights, the abolition movement in the US, helping the poor and continues to do so today. I think your problem is you have a fundamentally negative attitude toward the western world. Just as the OPs problem is he has way too postitive an attitude of the western world and way too negative an attitude toward the remainder of the world. A good historian has no country. He does not allow his political beliefs or the concerns of his day, to interfere with his reading of history.
Posted by JaySev2010
You're going to posture as an even-minded neutral observer, and then personally attack me based on your claims that I am merely repeating what a far left person said, and that I hate the west?
1. You are absolutely an apologist for Christianity. Reread what you wrote: We can excuse Christian states who crusaded and conquered with ample Church support because it was generally a violent era and their "message" was peace.
Whatever, the old church was extremely cruel and violent, and the fact that some of its members weren't does not excuse or mitigate the cruelty or violence in any way shape or form.
2. Anything I've said was a counter-point to Bill's question. Reread the thread anyway to catch my drift.
3. You want to manufacture a debate about whether or not I hate the west, or whether or not I am a "far left academic" or about whether or not Christianity is bad. I want no part of any of the above.
4. It's the same as with the abortion debate. You don't like something, so you insult it. It's either that I'm making "ivory tower arguments" or that I "hate the West" (how you get that from a critique of Christianity 0-1800 A.D. is beyond me).
You don't know me or what I know. I'm not going to write a textbook on a BDC thread just to convince you that I know what I'm talking about.
And I'm not going to be lectured by someone posing as an expert based on .... college classes? (HAH! If you're going to refer to what was taught in school rather than personal research, you might not want to hang your hat on college. Grad. school is the first time study actually gets serious)
So from my heart and with all due respect, f*ck you.
You are just repeating the same old "the Christian west is always wrong" song we heard so often from far left academics...I think your problem is you have a fundamentally negative attitude toward the western world.
Posted by JaySev2010
I want a discussion with someone like that no more than I want it with Whatnow3, Hawkeye01, ItsATravesty, AZPAT, or OscarBozachT00.
LOL. As if someone with "Whatisitnow YOU S*CK" as their BDC picture is looking for an honest debate....