What did they do?

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    What did they do?

    Yesterday, a gunman opened fire on a Sikh temple, killing 6 people, injuring 3 and terrorizing a community of people who were guilty of...well..nothing.

    On the face of it, it seems like this is just another mass shooting. But, what if it goes deeper? In the aftermath of 9/11, many in the Sikh community were targeted by ignorant bigots who thought they were Muslims..as if an entire religous community were responible for the reprehensible actions of a few.

    We are quickly coming to a time that we are going to have to engage in some serious dialogue about what it means to be American. It was quite an education watching the news reporters yesterday. It made me think that we really need to raise the education level of national news anchors. None of them had ever heard of the Sikh religion, even though it is the 5th largest in the world. One thing for sure, the US is not worldly. We, as a country are very self centered. Heck..our own news media didn't want to show us the tribute to the victims of London terrorism. NBC felt it wouldn't appeal to a US audience. It is as though they have determined that we lack the compassion to feel empathy for anyone other than ourselves. Could that be true?

    Regardless...as a country we can't keep going down this path. As a nation, we look upon certain cultures as inferior to us..as threats to our well-being. I suppose that in this day and age of the War on Terror that is to be expected. However, while we are fighting the War on Terror, we should look in the collective mirror and understand that there are more instances of domestic terrorism in this country than international terrorism. Our intolerance towards are own citizens has reached a breaking point. Our view of religious freedom needs to be called into question when people of other faiths feel threatened.

    So, I ask again, what did the members of this Sikh community do? A religion based on generosity, kindness, equality and community service. Yesterday, in the aftermath, while they were grieiving and their hearts were breaking..they provided food and drinks for law enforcement and other responders..because that is what they do. We should all feel humbled by their generosity. At a time when we should have been serving them, they served us.

     
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    Re: What did they do?

    The Colorado killings were the act of someone who, in my opinion, was crazy as in hearing voices and seeing stuff that's not there.

    The Sihk killings were motivate in part by hate and stupidity.

    Ever notice how liberals never flip out and kill white supremists. 

     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Pink..I'm trying to think of an argument to your point..but can't because at the end of the day..you're right. Murder is murder. The outcome and the penalties are still the same.
    Posted by miscricket


    Hate crimes have an added motivational element to the crime that makes them worse than the underlying crime.  We have often punished people in this fashion.  Kidnapping is bad, but kidnapping for ransom is worse. "Terrorism" is worse than the actual crime committed.  So is genocide.  But conservatives object because... of freedom of (hateful) speech issues?  Or is it because it is right wingers engage in this kind of speech that can progess into this kind of hateful action?
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Hate crimes have an added motivational element to the crime that makes them worse than the underlying crime.  We have often punished people in this fashion.  Kidnapping is bad, but kidnapping for ransom is worse. "Terrorism" is worse than the actual crime committed.  So is genocide.  But conservatives object because... of freedom of (hateful) speech issues?  Or is it because it is right wingers engage in this kind of speech that can progess into this kind of hateful action.
    Posted by Reubenhop


    Okay..thanks. That makes sense. When I was responding to pink earlier I hadn't thought of it that way. I was only thinking of the outcome..not the intent like WhatDoYouWantNow pointed out above. It seemed like hate crimes should be punished more severely but I didn't know enough about the law to know that intent was a big factor.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to What did they do? : Sadly, a quick glance at Politics:General demonstrates not only is that true, but that showing not even compassion - but the slightest bit of understanding - is viewed as contemptible, "unAmerican", and for some reason, "socialist."
    Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow

    I guess I was holding out for Skeeter to show some compassion or understanding..but I see that's not going to happen. It's sad that anyone would view feeling compassion and understanding..and dare I say..empathy ..as something negative. I guess that says more than anything else why our country is in the state it is.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : OUr country is in the state it is, because the left fails to see the rights views and right fails to see the lefts view. Then quickly blame the other side. Perhaps skeeter is busy and hasn't had time to jump back on today, I'm not going to assume that skeeter is uncompassionate until he has a chance to respond.
    Posted by msobstinate99

    Ummm...Skeeter has responded..a couple of times. Carry on...
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In response to "Re: What did they do?":
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Skeeter..stop being a moron. This is not a right/left thing. This is a US thing. This is our shared society issue. 6 innocent people are dead..they did nothing to deserve this..and all you can say is the left needs to calm down? I think in general, people need to be less accepting of incidents like this. Posted by miscricket
    Calm down, that's all I'm saying, and you are trying to turn my comment into a hate crime. Give it a rest.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In response to "Re: What did they do?":
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : For example, the above swine's view: Only the left cares about ethnicity-based and religious-based hate crimes. Because, of course, doing so is contemptible to him....it...whatever Posted by WhatDoYouWantNow
    I can't believe this. All I do is ask for calm, and I am being turned into some ogre. It is clear that I am just an unjustified target for all your hate, which is bubbling just below the surface, all the time.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In response to "Re: What did they do?":
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : I guess I was holding out for Skeeter to show some compassion or understanding..but I see that's not going to happen. It's sad that anyone would view feeling compassion and understanding..and dare I say..empathy ..as something negative. I guess that says more than anything else why our country is in the state it is. Posted by miscricket
    You some how get all that out of asking you to calm down? You obviously missed the part I my post where I expressed the thought that this was a terrible thing. You need to just calm down and stop tossing bombs.
     
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    In response to "Re: What did they do?":
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Ummm...Skeeter has responded..a couple of times. Carry on... Posted by miscricket
    Ummm, get the wax out of your ears. Skeeter has only asked that you calm down, and has expressed that the shooting was a terrible thing. You, on the other hand,care quick to judge me without evidence. Nice person. And, calm down.
     
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    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: What did they do?": Ummm, get the wax out of your ears. Skeeter has only asked that you calm down, and has expressed that the shooting was a terrible thing. You, on the other hand,care quick to judge me without evidence. Nice person. And, calm down.
    Posted by skeeter20[/QUOTE

    Funny..you asking people to not be outraged over a guy who is part of a white supremicist culture going into a temple and shooting a bunch of innocent people who didn't look like him. Funny..and sad.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : My belief is a crime is a crime. The killing of anyone is not ok or protected by any "freedoms of speech."  There is never any justification for killing innocent people, and I carry this over to the ongoing wars, IT IS NEVER OK TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE. Ever. To say that is all conservatives objective is well, hateful on your part.  
    Posted by msobstinate99


    Not all hate crimes involve murder.  Don't you think burning down someone's house because  they are gay or Black or Muslim is worse than just burning down a house because you like fires?  One is far more harmful to society than the other.

    And yes, a lot of conservatives have a real hard time with this issue.  And I don't think it is just about "freedom of speech".   They see these laws as aimed at their end of the political spectrum.  And they are pretty much right....  "traditional values" have been twisted by all kinds of groups and people into quite hateful beliefs (legal) and actions (illegal). And we need protection from these kinds of folks.
     
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    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Wow..so kidnapping "bad" but kidnapping for ransom is worse? In either scenario someone gets kidnapped correct? Why is one worse because someone asked for money?  To me, assault is wrong no matter what the reason. Kidnapping is wrong no matter what the reason. Killing is wrong no matter what the reason. Any act done on PURPOSE that is intent on harming someone is wrong no matter what the reason is for committing said act.  The gunman in CO had the intent to kill people in the theatre The gunman in WI had the intent to kill people in the Temple Why the need to label one a hate crime and the other just a crime? Both were heinous acts of senseless killing. Lock' em up and throw away the key so these two pieces of sh!t can rot in hell.
    Posted by WhichOnesPink2


    Look up the law. The penalty for kidnapping is enhanced if you do it for money. It's been that way for years and years. Get a clue and maybe a law book.  Specific intent is a focused criminal motivation that causes additional penalties. And not all hate crimes are murders. You can't enhance much on a premeditated case (except maybe as to the death penalty).  There are lots of other hate crimes out there too. Keeping those people off the streets should be a social imperative. They are worse than ordinary criminals because they are tearing at the fabric of our society as well as acting out against a particular individual. Get it?
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : If my house was burnt down, I wouldn't care about the reason. I'd be pissed my house was burned. Period. If someone killed a loved one of mine, I'd be pissed off and be wrapped up in grief to give a rats azz about the reasoning for the killing but that's just me.
    Posted by msobstinate99


    Sure.  You wouldn't care that you were targetted for crijminal behavior because you were part of a social subgroup.  And your friends/family of the same group would not care.  Sure.  A Gay or Black or Muslim group burns down your house because you are straight or white  or Christian and it would be just another crime to you.  Sure.
     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? :
    In response to "Re: What did they do?": Ummm, get the wax out of your ears. Skeeter has only asked that you calm down, and has expressed that the shooting was a terrible thing. You, on the other hand,care quick to judge me without evidence. Nice person. And, calm down. Posted by skeeter20[/QUOTE Funny..you asking people to not be outraged over a guy who is part of a white supremicist culture going into a temple and shooting a bunch of innocent people who didn't look like him. Funny..and sad.
    Posted by miscricket


    Well, it took long enough for you to get there.  When I didn't play your game, you needed to get to your real point, did you not?  Where do we go now?  Where do white supremacists fit in your view of the world?  Is there a call for more gun control?  Is there a philosophical point that you might have?  Might you reference Napolitano's report?  Just where are you going with this beyond the obvious, that this is a tragedy?  What are the conclusions you draw that you won't say?


     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Keeping those people off the streets should be a social imperative. They are worse than ordinary criminals because they are tearing at the fabric of our society as well as acting out against a particular individual. Right...someone assaults you because they are an a55hole is simply not as bad as someone who assaults you because you're gay. Either case you've been assaulted, but you need to label one worse than the other because one person is gay. I just don't see the need to differentiate. BOTH are bad. BOTH a55holes should go to jail.  So the person who beat up a gay person, that is imperative to get that person off the streets, but the person who assaults heteros well...that's just not so imperative. WOW!
    Posted by WhichOnesPink2


    It's because people are trying to change society for the better. By sending out a message that hating group X is wrong, people can consider the possibility that their own prejudices may be wrong. e.g. Unmarried couples, or inter-racial couples back in the 50s were despised. Utterly hated and spat upon. Even their own families disowned them. All because of a silly view society held. So then "re-education" happened gradually over time and now nobody cares. Win for society! I would then argue that it is entirely necessary to call out bigots in all forms to send a message to society that this is not only unacceptable but will be punished more severely than, say, a drunken bar-fight. 
    Same goes for womens lib. Positive discrimination by encouraging women to apply for jobs, and taking on a woman instead of a man when you have 2 candidates of equal quality applying, helps society see that women are just as good, and don't need to sit at home and squirt out babies. Once women are of equal standing then this positive discrimination can be removed and all people can be treated equally.
    It is a shame that the law needs to step in to force people to act civilly to one-another, but that is the country in which we live. It really is like the Wild West out there sometimes. Getting back to MisCrickets original question, why do these big shootings always happen in the USA? What is inherently wrong with americans?

     
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    Re: What did they do?

    In Response to Re: What did they do?:
    In Response to Re: What did they do? : Except that you can't legislate acceptance. People are taught bigotry. Putting on a harsher sentence isn't going to stop these ignorant a55holes from hating.  Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. Denis Leary
    Posted by WhichOnesPink2


    You can never legislate acceptance. What they have done though is legislate tolerance. Different concepts, the latter being to say nothing or do nothing to act on your bigotry. OR ELSE. 
    Harsher sentences also means these people are less likely to breed. 

     
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