1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to babytut's comment:
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    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
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    In response to babytut's comment:
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    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     [/QUOTE]

    "Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square"

    Kind of strange to say that, since the progressive view is that religion doesnt belong in the political realm at all, and religious belief doesnt have a political "rightful say"....is there a general "non-religious" atheist viewpoint? What political beliefs does it entail?

    Having it both ways here, arent we?

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the title of this thread is "1 In 5  Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them".

    You too get a participation ribbon.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm actually surprised it's not higher.

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:
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    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the title of this thread is "1 In 5  Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them".

    You too get a participation ribbon.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm actually surprised it's not higher.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm curious.  Why do you say that?

    Everyone has a crisis of faith in their lives; it's part of what makes us human, to doubt our instincts now and then.

    I would also wager the term "religion" vs. "spirituality" might distort the stats somewhat.

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    There are so many variations of Christianity in the US that in my opinion the overall message and tenets of the faith have been too diluted and watered down and people are drifting away from the faith.  

    We have everything from the tent revivalists (including odd offshoots like the snake handlers) to the somewhat strange Jehovah's Witnesses, to closed cultish sects like Westboro Baptist, churches that cater exclusively to bigots, black churches, white churches, churches that are nondenominational, Christian Scientists, Catholics, and the list goes on and on.  Add to that the political appropriation of Christianity in general by craven scoundrels running for office, church leadership that turned a blind eye to sexual abuse of children, church leaers who have built multi million dollar empires on the backs of their congregations, and the church acting as a political social entity and the whole thing begins to lose appeal.   There are too many mixed messages, too much hypocrisy, too much greed and intolerance, and so its not surprising that people are finding that faith and religion are unnecessary.  

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There are so many variations of Christianity in the US that in my opinion the overall message and tenets of the faith have been too diluted and watered down and people are drifting away from the faith.  

    We have everything from the tent revivalists (including odd offshoots like the snake handlers) to the somewhat strange Jehovah's Witnesses, to closed cultish sects like Westboro Baptist, churches that cater exclusively to bigots, black churches, white churches, churches that are nondenominational, Christian Scientists, Catholics, and the list goes on and on.  Add to that the political appropriation of Christianity in general by craven scoundrels running for office, church leadership that turned a blind eye to sexual abuse of children, church leaers who have built multi million dollar empires on the backs of their congregations, and the church acting as a political social entity and the whole thing begins to lose appeal.   There are too many mixed messages, too much hypocrisy, too much greed and intolerance, and so its not surprising that people are finding that faith and religion are unnecessary.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Good points.

    Often, the phrase I hear is, "I didn't leave the church; the church left me."

    Catholicism, especially, has been hemhorraging parishoners these past few decades.

    Pope Francis seems to be trying to change that.

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from babytut. Show babytut's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    one poster here said that

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    [QUOTE]Remember, the vast majority of religious people had religion seared into their brain as intellectually defenseless children under the undue influence of parents, grandparents and extended family.

    Remember, before you hand your children off to be conditioned by your local school systems, that this is exactly how liberals think.

    [/QUOTE]

    SB,

    You wrote, "...that this is exactly how liberals think.'.

    Did you ever ever consider it might be better to be a liberal than be a conservative?

    Have you thought very much about why basicly decent people who are liberal and conservative when they try to debate the important topics of the day, often end up going around and around and around in belligerent circles?

    Below, I have printed part of an article which i believe is worth considering. It looks at the fact that though liberals and conservatives share core ethical values, they priortize differently.

    Liberals put fairness and harm at the top of their list while conservitives tend to put authority, loyalty and purity at the top of their list. Hence, we often cannot come to agreement because our core values are at odds. 

    Of course this is not the only factors involved but I believe it explains quite a lot.

     

    You may have heard about this. It's been in the news and the blogosphere, and has been making the rounds at the nerdier water coolers and cocktail parties. A number of researchers are coming to the conclusion that ethics and values aren't entirely relative, and aren't solely derived from particular cultures. Human beings, across cultures and throughout history, seem to share a few core ethical values, hard-wired into our brains by millions of years of evolution as a social species. Those values: Fairness, harm and the avoidance thereof, loyalty, authority and purity. (Some think there may be one or two others, including liberty and honesty; but those aren't yet as well-substantiated, or as well-studied.)

    Different people prioritize different values over others, of course. And of course, different individuals and different cultures come to different conclusions about the right ethical choice in any particular situation: based on our cultural biases, as well as on our own personal observations and experiences. But according to this research, these basic values -- fairness, harm, loyalty, authority and purity -- exist in all of us, at least to some degree, in every non-sociopathic human being.

    "Fascinating," I hear you cry. "But what does that have to do with politics?" Well, what researchers are finding is that liberals prioritize very different values from conservatives. When asked a series of questions about different ethical situations, self-described liberals strongly tend to prioritize fairness and harm as the most important of these core values -- while self-described conservatives are more likely to prioritize authority, loyalty and purity.

    As a dyed-in-the-wool liberal -- the offspring of a union organizer and an early-adopter feminist, taken to peace marches and McGovern rallies at a tender age -- this idea instantly made sense to me. It illuminates a lot of weird dark corners about politics, particularly the rancorous and apparently unsolvable nature of many political conflicts. When liberals and conservatives debate the burning issues of the day -- whether it's immigration or marriage equality, global warming or health care reform -- we often wind up talking at cross-purposes, and the conversations go around in increasingly belligerent circles ... because we're not starting with the same ethical foundations. We assume that we have the same core values, and are simply debating the best way to apply those values in the world. We're not. We're debating -- not very effectively or coherently most of the time -- the core values themselves.

    And of course, when I heard about this research, my instant reaction was to say, "But fairness and harm are more important! We were right all along! This proves it -- liberal values are better!"

    But, being someone who places a strong ethical value on fairness -- I realize that of course I'm going to say that. After all, those are my values. Of course I think they're better. And -- again, being someone who highly values fairness -- I realize that conservatives are going to say the exact same thing. "But authority and loyalty are more important! This proves it! Conservative values are better!"

    http://www.alternet.org/story/146930/why_being_liberal_really_is_better_than_being_conservative

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 



    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the title of this thread is "1 In 5  Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them".

    You too get a participation ribbon.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm actually surprised it's not higher.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm curious.  Why do you say that?

    Everyone has a crisis of faith in their lives; it's part of what makes us human, to doubt our instincts now and then.

    I would also wager the term "religion" vs. "spirituality" might distort the stats somewhat.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I wasn't cueing in so much on "religion" vs. "spirituality", that's an interesting point.  I guess I was thinking of it somewhat parochial:  We live in a christain-dominated country where the key tenets of christianity are not really followed.  I guess that's why I said what I said.  Not saying I am right, just explaining why the number surprised me.

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jedwardnicky's comment:
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    In response to babytut's comment:
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    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

     

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the title of this thread is "1 In 5  Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them".

    You too get a participation ribbon.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm actually surprised it's not higher.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm curious.  Why do you say that?

    Everyone has a crisis of faith in their lives; it's part of what makes us human, to doubt our instincts now and then.

    I would also wager the term "religion" vs. "spirituality" might distort the stats somewhat.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I wasn't cueing in so much on "religion" vs. "spirituality", that's an interesting point.  I guess I was thinking of it somewhat parochial:  We live in a christain-dominated country where the key tenets of christianity are not really followed.  I guess that's why I said what I said.  Not saying I am right, just explaining why the number surprised me.

    [/QUOTE]

    And yet there is certainly much debate over exactly what the 'key tenets of christianity' are and how they should be followed.  Best as I can tell, there are no direct answers, and dogma fills in the gaps between scripture and doctrine.

    The nature of parochialism is that it emphasizes the local over the regional or national, so by those terms, there exists a wide variation of christian identity even within a given denomination.

    Of course, when people say something like religion is 'not that important' to them, their perceptions are entirely relative.

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    The below article digs further into Americans beliefs on God and religion. 

    For instance, of the developed counties, most agree you do not need religion to be moral. America is a major exception. 

    Americans have some very stong negative feelings on both agnostics and atheists.

    Furthur, religion is very much connected to the rates of poverty in our country.

    These are some of the bullet points regarding religion right now in America.

     

     

     

     

    No, You Don't Need God to be a Good Person — Why Don't Many Americans Get This? Most of the developed world agrees that you don't need religion to be moral.  

     

       

      March 13, 2014  |          

    This week, Pew Research Center published the results of a survey conducted among 40,080 people in 40 countries between 2011 and 2013. The survey asked a simple question: is belief in God essential to morality? While clear majorities say it is necessary, the U.S. continues to be an outlier.

    In 22 of the 40 countries surveyed, the majority says it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person. “This position is highly prevalent, if not universal, in Africa and the Middle East,” says the report. No surprise there, but Asian and Latin countries such as Indonesia (99%), Malaysia (89%), the Philippines (99%), El Salvador (93%), and Brazil (86%) all fell in the highest percentile of respondents believing belief in a god (small G) is central to having good values.

    >Interestingly, clear majorities in all highly developed countries do not think belief in god to be necessary for morality, with one exception only: the U.S.A.

    Only 15 percent of the French population answered in the affirmative. Spain: 19%. Australia: 23%. Britain: 20%. Italy: 27%. Canada: 31%. Germany 33%. Israel: 37%.

    So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population.

    With the exception of the U.S. and China, the survey finds that those “in richer nations tend to place less emphasis on the need to believe in God to have good values than people in poorer countries do.” The chart below illustrates this point:

    Staying with the U.S., this correlation between a high rate of poverty and high degree of religiosity is supported by a 2009 Pew Forum “Importance of Religion” study that determined the degree of religious fervor in all 50 states. The study measured a number of variables including frequency of prayer, absolute belief in God, and so forth. Led by Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas, nine of the top 10 most religious states were southern. Oklahoma ruined the South’s clean sweep by sneaking in at number seven.

    Not coincidentally, led again by Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas, nine of the top 10 poorest states are also found in the South, while northern and pacific states such as Wisconsin, Washington, California, New York, New Hampshire, and Vermont are among the least religious and the most economically prosperous.

    Drilling down further, a 2011 Barna Group study titled "Diversity of Faith in Various U.S. Cities" found that “the cities with the highest proportion of residents who describe themselves as Christian are all in the South.” Leaders are Shreveport (98%), Birmingham (96%), Charlotte (96%), and Greenville (94%). The cities with the lowest percentage of religiosity include New York, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. David Kinnaman, who authored the Barna study, said the research “confirmed many spiritual assumptions about various regions of the country. The South hosts many of the nation’s Christians, while the West and Northeast play to more secular stereotypes.”

    In an earlier piece, I wrote that the primary reason for abject child poverty in these Southern states is that more than a third of children have parents who lack secure employment, decent wages and healthcare. But thanks to religion, these poor saps vote for the party that rejects Medicaid expansion, opposes early education expansion, legislates larger cuts to education, and slashes food stamps to make room for oil and agriculture subsidies on top of tax cuts and loopholes for corporations and the wealthy. Essentially, the Republican Party has convinced tens of millions of Southerners that a vote for a public display of the Ten Commandments is more important to a Christian’s needs than a vote against cuts in education spending, food stamp reductions, the elimination of school lunches and the abolition of healthcare programs.

    Isn’t it time to save the South from itself, and/or to save America from the South? These studies and the current political zeitgeist remind us that it’s the religious South which continues to hold the country in some kind of 1860s time-warp. While the more secular America is trying to deal intelligently with real problems—taxes, spending, environment, healthcare, education, inequality, and poverty– the South is rooted in religious fanaticism, ancient grudges and demagoguery.

    While the Republican Party retains its monolithic hold on the South, the rest of America remains deprived of universal healthcare, electric cars, sensible gun control laws, carbon emission bans, a progressive tax structure that underpins massive public investment, and collective bargaining laws that would compress the income inequality gap. In other words, without the South’s religiosity, "America" would again look like a developed, secular country, a country where it’s probable for an atheist to be elected into public office, and where the other 50 million law-abiding atheists wouldn’t be looked upon as rapists, thieves and murders.

     

     

     

     

     

    http://www.alternet.org/belief/no-you-dont-need-god-be-good-person

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    Well I hate to be construed as a contrarian but in my optimistic view point is that based on the poll that the remainder or 79% feel that religion is important in their lives.

     
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    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
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    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

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    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
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    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
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    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

     

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, the title of this thread is "1 In 5  Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them".

    You too get a participation ribbon.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm actually surprised it's not higher.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm curious.  Why do you say that?

    Everyone has a crisis of faith in their lives; it's part of what makes us human, to doubt our instincts now and then.

    I would also wager the term "religion" vs. "spirituality" might distort the stats somewhat.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I wasn't cueing in so much on "religion" vs. "spirituality", that's an interesting point.  I guess I was thinking of it somewhat parochial:  We live in a christain-dominated country where the key tenets of christianity are not really followed.  I guess that's why I said what I said.  Not saying I am right, just explaining why the number surprised me.

    [/QUOTE]

    And yet there is certainly much debate over exactly what the 'key tenets of christianity' are and how they should be followed.  Best as I can tell, there are no direct answers, and dogma fills in the gaps between scripture and doctrine.

    The nature of parochialism is that it emphasizes the local over the regional or national, so by those terms, there exists a wide variation of christian identity even within a given denomination.

    Of course, when people say something like religion is 'not that important' to them, their perceptions are entirely relative.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure, plenty of debate over what the some non-key tenets of Christianity are.  However, the fathers of the faith are probably not that much in disagreement on the key tenets, such as there being only one God.  You can believe in many Gods, but by doing so, you fall outside a belief system that can be defined as Christian.  I'm not saying there is absolute conformity on every issue, just that it is more nailed down than you probably think.

    I take the original statement to be more about people running away from whatever tenets they are exposed to, as in people just going all new age, or just read the newspaper in a coffee shop on Sundays, rather than engage in a church worship experience.

    However, most people don't engage in Christian worship.  Part of the same survey say that about half regularly go to church.  I find even that hard to believe.  Not enough churches to account for half of the population going to church any given Sunday.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well I hate to be construed as a contrarian but in my optimistic view point is that based on the poll that the remainder or 79% feel that religion is important in their lives.

    [/QUOTE]

    mmj,

    You are not being a contrarian. That is what the data does show.

    Looking even closer at religion in America, you also have to look at the degree of religious fervor in the 50 states. Below paragraph is from my post above.

     

    Staying with the U.S., this correlation between a high rate of poverty and high degree of religiosity is supported by a 2009 Pew Forum “Importance of Religion” study that determined the degree of religious fervor in all 50 states. The study measured a number of variables including frequency of prayer, absolute belief in God, and so forth. Led by Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas, nine of the top 10 most religious states were southern. Oklahoma ruined the South’s clean sweep by sneaking in at number seven."

     

    I also find, from the same article, the following facts concerning religion in America to be interesting.

     

    "Drilling down further, a 2011 Barna Group study titled "Diversity of Faith in Various U.S. Cities" found that “the cities with the highest proportion of residents who describe themselves as Christian are all in the South.” Leaders are Shreveport (98%), Birmingham (96%), Charlotte (96%), and Greenville (94%). The cities with the lowest percentage of religiosity include New York, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Seattle. David Kinnaman, who authored the Barna study, said the research “confirmed many spiritual assumptions about various regions of the country. The South hosts many of the nation’s Christians, while the West and Northeast play to more secular stereotypes.”

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to WhatNowDoYouWant's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Was the question phrased as just religion...or belief in God?

     

    Because there are people for whom religion, as in organized religion, plays a role who do not necessarily have some absolute faith in God or any particular deity.

    (ie, AA - surrender yourself to a "higher power" because for some people, convincing themselves they're being helped by a magical being is the only way to trick themselves into exercising their own very real will power; etc.)

     One could even imagine an old lonely person who would say "yes, religion is important" when they're thinking of how church events are their only remaining social gatherings - and yet maybe they don't believe in a God.

     

    Etc.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.  I think we all bring our bias to this survey question, which is not specific enough to make any real conclusions.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I am glad you enjoyed the article.

    One reason I believe being an open agnostic or atheist is political suicide comes right from that article.

     

    "So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population."

     

    With research numbers like the above I cannot think of many political positions one could attain right now.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I am glad you enjoyed the article.

    One reason I believe being an open agnostic or atheist is political suicide comes right from that article.

     

    "So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population."

     

    With research numbers like the above I cannot think of many political positions one could attain right now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting, the athiest stat.  Good for them.

    You would think athiests would be less tied to some sense of moral standards.  Not poking fun, but it just doesn't make sense. I would have to ask:  Where do they think morality comes from?

    Maybe the prison population is not resepctive of religion.  Or athiests are better at not getting caught!

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I am glad you enjoyed the article.

    One reason I believe being an open agnostic or atheist is political suicide comes right from that article.

     

    "So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population."

     

    With research numbers like the above I cannot think of many political positions one could attain right now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting, the athiest stat.  Good for them.

    You would think athiests would be less tied to some sense of moral standards.  Not poking fun, but it just doesn't make sense. I would have to ask:  Where do they think morality comes from?

    Maybe the prison population is not resepctive of religion.  Or athiests are better at not getting caught!

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I do not know if your last sentence is an example of your wit or not. Still trying to catch on to that.

    A short answer is since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they put an even stronger emphasis on their morality in this life...the only life they believe in. So atheists are in fact more tied to moral standards than less so.

    As for where do they think morality comes from...people, including atheists, do not need a god or religion to know what core values are. Fairness, avoidnes of harm, loyalty, honesty, authority, etc.

    Since they do not have a god to fall back on and say it was god's will when bad things happen, they do not have a god to square things with. They take on the bad directly all the while leaving people of faith free to lean on their faith in the bad times.

    I believe atheists are very moral people...often more moral than those who follow one religion or not. Atheists usually have given much more thought to arriving at the decision to be an athesist while many who follow a religion are simply following whatever religion they were born into.

    That is my short answer to your question ron. 

     
  23. This post has been removed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ronreganfan. Show ronreganfan's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I am glad you enjoyed the article.

    One reason I believe being an open agnostic or atheist is political suicide comes right from that article.

     

    "So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population."

     

    With research numbers like the above I cannot think of many political positions one could attain right now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting, the athiest stat.  Good for them.

    You would think athiests would be less tied to some sense of moral standards.  Not poking fun, but it just doesn't make sense. I would have to ask:  Where do they think morality comes from?

    Maybe the prison population is not resepctive of religion.  Or athiests are better at not getting caught!

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I do not know if your last sentence is an example of your wit or not. Still trying to catch on to that.

    A short answer is since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they put an even stronger emphasis on their morality in this life...the only life they believe in. So atheists are in fact more tied to moral standards than less so.

    As for where do they think morality comes from...people, including atheists, do not need a god or religion to know what core values are. Fairness, avoidnes of harm, loyalty, honesty, authority, etc.

    Since they do not have a god to fall back on and say it was god's will when bad things happen, they do not have a god to square things with. They take on the bad directly all the while leaving people of faith free to lean on their faith in the bad times.

    I believe atheists are very moral people...often more moral than those who follow one religion or not. Atheists usually have given much more thought to arriving at the decision to be an athesist while many who follow a religion are simply following whatever religion they were born into.

    That is my short answer to your question ron. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, I beleive athiests can be moral people as well, thoughtful, and intelligent.  Wouldn't want to suggest otherwise.  I am just curious how they arrive, philosophically, at moral positions, i.e. how to they arrive at do no harm, be good to others.  Is the athiest position thatthese are the result of the randomness that lead totheir life to begin with?  That's where I'm heading.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: 1 In 5 Americans Say Religion Is 'Not That Important' To Them

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ronreganfan's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to andiejen's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to babytut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    85% of the world has religion. 



    Indeed, they have it.

    But maybe some of them don't want it (or want another flavor).  In many places, that's simply not allowed.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    if you read the polling, the data, and the factual information available, you will find that religious beliefs worldwide and belief in god is going no where.  in fact, the available data shows only a tiny drop off in belief over the last 50 years.

    i agree that some faiths are hoist upon people with death as a penalty for non belief or blasphemy but the numbers still have changed less than 1% approximately since 1940.

    religion is not going away as was suggested. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Who suggested that?

    Again, the point is in allowing the at-least 15% of non-believers to have their rightful say in the public square.  That some believers feel so mortally threatened by this is telling.

    No doubt, the U.S. is much more lenient on this score, and yet very few american politicians are openly non-theist; indeed, such a view would be political suicide in large swaths of the country. (to say nothing of believing in a god other than the christian one)

    My view is that religion is not a prerequisite for moral authority, much less sage political leadership.  Nor should it be.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In other words, you do not need god to be a good person. 

    But given the most recent polls on religion in America, you are correct. It is indeed political suicide to be an open agnostic or athesist.

    In my post above are the details of how this breaks down in America.

    [/QUOTE]

    Depends on what you mean by good.  I don't think Christianity is about being or doing good, per se.  It is about getting real with our relationship with God.

    i don't know about being agnostic or atheist as political suicide.  Sure, many politicians talk a good game on faith, but their actions generally indicate that they are just talk.  People put blinders on.  Example, Biden and Pelosi being pro abortion and claiming to be good Catholics.  That doesn't work, but their supporters and the press let them get away with it.

    i enjoyed the article above, BTW.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I am glad you enjoyed the article.

    One reason I believe being an open agnostic or atheist is political suicide comes right from that article.

     

    "So what of the U.S.? A comparatively eye-popping 53 percent of Americans essentially believe atheists and agnostics are living in sin. Despite the fact that a research analyst at the Federal Bureau of Prisons determined that atheists are thoroughly under-represented in the places where rapists, thieves and murders invariably end up: prisons. While atheists make upward of 15 percent of the U.S. population, they only make up 0.2 percent of the prison population."

     

    With research numbers like the above I cannot think of many political positions one could attain right now.

    [/QUOTE]

    Interesting, the athiest stat.  Good for them.

    You would think athiests would be less tied to some sense of moral standards.  Not poking fun, but it just doesn't make sense. I would have to ask:  Where do they think morality comes from?

    Maybe the prison population is not resepctive of religion.  Or athiests are better at not getting caught!

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    I do not know if your last sentence is an example of your wit or not. Still trying to catch on to that.

    A short answer is since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they put an even stronger emphasis on their morality in this life...the only life they believe in. So atheists are in fact more tied to moral standards than less so.

    As for where do they think morality comes from...people, including atheists, do not need a god or religion to know what core values are. Fairness, avoidnes of harm, loyalty, honesty, authority, etc.

    Since they do not have a god to fall back on and say it was god's will when bad things happen, they do not have a god to square things with. They take on the bad directly all the while leaving people of faith free to lean on their faith in the bad times.

    I believe atheists are very moral people...often more moral than those who follow one religion or not. Atheists usually have given much more thought to arriving at the decision to be an athesist while many who follow a religion are simply following whatever religion they were born into.

    That is my short answer to your question ron. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, I beleive athiests can be moral people as well, thoughtful, and intelligent.  Wouldn't want to suggest otherwise.  I am just curious how they arrive, philosophically, at moral positions, i.e. how to they arrive at do no harm, be good to others.  Is the athiest position thatthese are the result of the randomness that lead totheir life to begin with?  That's where I'm heading.

    [/QUOTE]

    ron,

    Scientists believe that human beings...other than sociopathetic human beings... are hard-wired with all of these core values and have been for millions of years...athetists included.

    People do priortize these values differently. Some put fairness and do no harm at the top of their list. Others tend to put authority and loyalty at the top of their lists.

    Hence one of the reasons when we debate the important issues of the day, we cannot seem to come to agreement, but go around in ever increasing belligerent circles. Our different core values are really being debated...not the nominal issue such as health care, immigration, etc.

    Yet another succcinct answer to one of your questions. 

    Cannot accuse me of TL/DR...at least in these last 2 posts.

     
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