Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    — Courts must take a skeptical look at affirmative-action programs at public colleges and universities, the Supreme Court ruled Monday, in a decision that is likely to set off a wave of challenges to race-conscious admissions policies nationwide.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    Race should never play a role...in anything. Shouldn't matter what ones race is. If you have the grades and the scores then you should be admitted. If you don't have the grades and the scores then too bad so sad...swing a hammer.

     

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    We can only hope it opens up real and candid dialog about the supposed pro's and con's of the  affirmative action law.

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/06/24/supreme-court-ways-to-read-punt-column/2453901/


    The Supreme Court's narrow decision Monday keeping alive a challenge to racial preferences in admissions at the University of Texas may open the way for a healthy shift in the debate from legal abstractions to whether these preferences are working as advertised.

    That should bring attention to the growing body of evidence that large preferences harm many intended beneficiaries and reduce socioeconomic diversity.

    The seeds of a potentially rich debate in future lawsuits and around the country about how racial preferences operate in practice and their effects on students can be found in Justice Anthony Kennedy's spare opinion for himself and six other justices.

    They overturned the decisions of two lower courts for having upheld the university's heavy reliance on race in pursuit of diversity "without closely examining how the process works in practice."

    The Constitution, the justices held, requires that universities bear "the burden of demonstrating, before turning to racial classifications, that available, race-neutral alternatives do not suffice."

    The most obvious race-neutral alternative, although Kennedy's vague opinion didn't discuss it, is to try harder to bring in working-class and poor kids of all races -- a form of diversity to which most universities have given short shrift -- while reducing the weight given to race.

    Under the current racial-preference regime, Texas and other universities routinely admit many wealthy and middle class (and a few poor) black and Hispanic kids while rejecting Asians and whites who are (in many cases) both less affluent and better-prepared.

    More broadly, the logic of Kennedy's opinion implies that courts should focus less on abstract, all-or-nothing constitutional and moral arguments about whether race can be considered at all and more on whether racial preferences are working as advertised.

    If such evidence becomes the focus, courts and policymakers will have to confront an outpouring of studies showing that large racial preferences set up many black and Hispanic intended beneficiaries for academic frustration.

    These students are brought without warning into highly competitive settings where they are likely to struggle academically, become demoralized, abandon any aspirations to major in the rigorous courses necessary to become doctors, scientists or other professionals, and barely squeak by or even fail.

    These students are victims of what we call academic "mismatch." Many or most would do much better academically, and perhaps in their careers, if they attended somewhat less selective but still very good schools for which they are well prepared.

    An outpouring of studies show that many students admitted via large preferences, after being assured that they are well-qualified, end up abandoning science and other tough courses in highly disproportionate numbers; getting low grades, with half of black students ranking in the bottom 20 percent of their classes in college and the bottom 10% in law school; and that more than half of black law students (the best data suggest) never become lawyers because they cannot pass the bar exam.

    Careful surveys and other evidence show that all this takes a heavy toll on the self-confidence of many of these students. Large racial preferences also stigmatize even the most capable black and Hispanic students by fostering the stereotype that all of them are academically sub-par "affirmative action admits."

    We hope that evidence like this will be given due attention in future litigation over racial preferences, and will force universities to reduce the size and scope of racial preferences while seeking more socioeconomic diversity and making their highly secretive racial-preference regimes more transparent.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     



    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     



    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     



    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     

     



    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Isn't that what financial aid and scholarships are for??? I know tons of poor people who've gone to college. Hell, one I coached grew up in the projects. Family didn't have a pot to pi55 in. He busted his a55 applying to every scholarship he could get his hands on. It paid off...literally, as he got a scholarship and was able to go to Cornell. That's just one of many examples. The key though is hard work. Again, he busted his a55...not only to get good grades but to also obtain a scholarship that would allow his to be able to go to a school his family would have never been able to afford. 

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rushfan2112. Show Rushfan2112's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

     


    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with you that anyone who is willing to work hard should be paid a wage on which they can live.  I don't think $12 an hour is enough, not in the greater Boston area anyway.

    Regarding the educational playing field?  That's a difficult one to address.  You seem to imply that some children cannot succeed because their educational system is inferior to some other systems.  If that is the case, I emphatically disagree.  My wife and I both grew up in a rural area, with low SES, and an educational system that certainly would not meet the standards of some communities around Boston.  We both went through that system, made great sacrifices, worked really hard, took a few chances, and along the way earned the right to put a few letters after our names that some might consider impressive.  Irrespective of the educational system or socioeconomic class in which you grow up, it's not impossible to succeed.  

    My experience would suggest that there are educational opportunities available, the student and guidance office must be the ones responsible to go after those opportunities.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to Rushfan2112's comment:

     


    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 



    I agree with you that anyone who is willing to work hard should be paid a wage on which they can live.  I don't think $12 an hour is enough, not in the greater Boston area anyway.

    Regarding the educational playing field?  That's a difficult one to address.  You seem to imply that some children cannot succeed because their educational system is inferior to some other systems.  If that is the case, I emphatically disagree.  My wife and I both grew up in a rural area, with low SES, and an educational system that certainly would not meet the standards of some communities around Boston.  We both went through that system, made great sacrifices, worked really hard, took a few chances, and along the way earned the right to put a few letters after our names that some might consider impressive.  Irrespective of the educational system or socioeconomic class in which you grow up, it's not impossible to succeed.  

    My experience would suggest that there are educational opportunities available, the student and guidance office must be the ones responsible to go after those opportunities.

    [/QUOTE]


    I didn't say its impossible to make it, but the odds are stacked against many kids, and they are getting worse, not better.

    I realize not every kid is going to get Montessori pre school, or private SAT tutors, trips abroad to learn a foreign languarge, or summer enrichment programs.  But better government sponsored child care, or even stipends for stay at home parents with young children; universal health care; readily available youth/young adult vocational training programs, cheap/free higher education are things we should be investing in....but thats socialism.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andiejen. Show andiejen's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

    Kicking it back to the Appellate court is pretty wishy washy.  I am more interested in the DOMA ruling.



    Gregin,

    The DOMA ruling as well as the ruling on a case involving Prop. 8 are both coming out tomorrow.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    Affirmative action is a racist practice but because it's pushed by the government and colleges its somehow OK.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PetesCall. Show PetesCall's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to UserName99's comment: If we end the "Nanny State" that the Left-Wing-Nuts have put in place, we can incentivize some of these people to want out. Jobs are out there, but work is hard and Not fun most of the time.  Life is rough...they need help, but not Government or State freebies all the time. We may also solve some of the insane inner-city gang murders and crimes that no-one can stop. To end the cycle, we need to end the Government largesse that buys nothing but votes.

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     



    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     

     

     



    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Isn't that what financial aid and scholarships are for??? I know tons of poor people who've gone to college. Hell, one I coached grew up in the projects. Family didn't have a pot to pi55 in. He busted his a55 applying to every scholarship he could get his hands on. It paid off...literally, as he got a scholarship and was able to go to Cornell. That's just one of many examples. The key though is hard work. Again, he busted his a55...not only to get good grades but to also obtain a scholarship that would allow his to be able to go to a school his family would have never been able to afford. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well..yes. However there is what you could call a donut hole in this philosophy. Someone who is very poor and also very smart will get a lot of financial aid.  The working poor for the most part get left out of this equation and that's who we should be concerned about. There are only so many scholarships to go around..and one should not have to rely on the "luck of the draw" in order to pursue higher education. College costs are so high now that there really isn't any "working your way through college". Most kids graduate with astromical amounts of debt that far exceed what can be afforded on today's lowered wages.

    In my humble opinion ..the real means of helping people afford college..is to make college more affordable. Look at the budgets and compensations of many 4 years schools these days and it's no wonder why tuition is unaffordable without going into debt.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     



    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     

     

     

     



    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

     

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Isn't that what financial aid and scholarships are for??? I know tons of poor people who've gone to college. Hell, one I coached grew up in the projects. Family didn't have a pot to pi55 in. He busted his a55 applying to every scholarship he could get his hands on. It paid off...literally, as he got a scholarship and was able to go to Cornell. That's just one of many examples. The key though is hard work. Again, he busted his a55...not only to get good grades but to also obtain a scholarship that would allow his to be able to go to a school his family would have never been able to afford. 

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well..yes. However there is what you could call a donut hole in this philosophy. Someone who is very poor and also very smart will get a lot of financial aid.  The working poor for the most part get left out of this equation and that's who we should be concerned about. There are only so many scholarships to go around..and one should not have to rely on the "luck of the draw" in order to pursue higher education. College costs are so high now that there really isn't any "working your way through college". Most kids graduate with astromical amounts of debt that far exceed what can be afforded on today's lowered wages.

     

    In my humble opinion ..the real means of helping people afford college..is to make college more affordable. Look at the budgets and compensations of many 4 years schools these days and it's no wonder why tuition is unaffordable without going into debt.

    [/QUOTE]

    Making college affordable is a nice idea but no one seems to be able to give any examples of how that could be done. I'm all ears for legitimate ideas of how to make college more affordable.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Affirmative Action: Should Race Still Play a Role in College Admissions Decisions?

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

     

    It's been fifty years since the civil right act from the sixties.  After two generations have experienced the corrective benefits its time to ensure protections remain but race based affirmative action must end.  If we need some sort of affirmative action it should it should be tied to socio-economic issues not race based.

    ...the man who really counts in the world is the doer,...  TR 1891

     

     



    100% agree.  Gaping income inequality is by far the predominant form of discrimination in this country now.  Its gone too far and corrections need to be made.

     

     



    So if a person has no marketable skills and can only work as a cashier, what yearly salary do you think that person deserves to make?

     

     

     

     

     



    I think anyone who is willing to roll-up their sleeves and work should be paid a living wage that provides dignity.  I'd say thats somewhere around $12 an hour nowadays.

     

     

     

     

    But that wasn't really my point.  The focus should be on leveling the educational playing field for children.  The educational opportunities are vastly different for the poor and the well to do. 

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Isn't that what financial aid and scholarships are for??? I know tons of poor people who've gone to college. Hell, one I coached grew up in the projects. Family didn't have a pot to pi55 in. He busted his a55 applying to every scholarship he could get his hands on. It paid off...literally, as he got a scholarship and was able to go to Cornell. That's just one of many examples. The key though is hard work. Again, he busted his a55...not only to get good grades but to also obtain a scholarship that would allow his to be able to go to a school his family would have never been able to afford. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Well..yes. However there is what you could call a donut hole in this philosophy. Someone who is very poor and also very smart will get a lot of financial aid.  The working poor for the most part get left out of this equation and that's who we should be concerned about. There are only so many scholarships to go around..and one should not have to rely on the "luck of the draw" in order to pursue higher education. College costs are so high now that there really isn't any "working your way through college". Most kids graduate with astromical amounts of debt that far exceed what can be afforded on today's lowered wages.

     

     

    In my humble opinion ..the real means of helping people afford college..is to make college more affordable. Look at the budgets and compensations of many 4 years schools these days and it's no wonder why tuition is unaffordable without going into debt.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Making college affordable is a nice idea but no one seems to be able to give any examples of how that could be done. I'm all ears for legitimate ideas of how to make college more affordable.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sadly..I agree. Perhaps re-examining the non profit and in many cases..tax exempt status that most private colleges and universities enjoy would be a place to start...given what they charge for tuition..and what they pay their administrative staff.

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share