In response to DamainAllen's comment:

Very well said.

Way more words than skeeter is worth, and way more than he could understand even if he was willing to try.

Still, very well said.

 

 

In response to DamianAllen:

The issue isn't about whether you (or anyone else) agrees with me.  This is about level setting some basics and establishing a floor for discussion.  Abortion is legal, and opponents of abortion are entitled to their opinion regarding abortion. 

My anger has to do solely with the idea espoused by men like Todd Akin and this Mourdock fellow is the idea that the state has an obligation to adhere to an interpretation of christian faith and that the state as represented by these would be legislators could utlize its power to prevent a woman from obtaining a legal medical procedure even in the case of rape or incest.  I don't care about your or their religious underpinnings and morals and as far as I am concerned you all will sort out your successes and failings with your maker should you ever meet him/her/it.

But for the time being we all occupy a very tanglible hunk of rock and in our little subdivision of that hunk of rock, the people have set up standards to determine how society should behave and the consequences for behavior outside drifts outside of those norms.  Those standards are enforced by regular people, some who wear uniforms, some who wear robes, and some who sit in judgement of those who violate those standards.  Those judgments are made based on a very particular sets of "laws" that have been and continue to be written by people who in their infinite wisdom may have drawn a good deal of influence from whatever deity they worship on Sundays, but still had the foresight not to make the book of their faith the law of the land. 

Quibbling over whatever it is you think I beleive about the origins of life, or when life begins...thats hiding behind your morality.  Well, your morality means nothing to me, so why not instead of distorting, obsfuscating, and trying to make it seem like you have no choice but to carry a value system that more is line with nomadic tribesmen or violent woman subjugating cultures, why don't you just come out and argue the logical conclusion to your line of reasoning with respect to womens reproductive rights?   You don't believe in womens reproductive rights.  The woman's womb is subject to the laws of god, the state, and whatever the whims are of the legislative body that happens to be in power at that moment.  That's basically what this boils down to isn't it?  In a perfect conservative world there is no abortion issue because abortion doesn't exist.  Rape may very well be legitimate so why make an exception for abortion?  A father raping his daughter?  Who cares!  Women have special powers in their hootnannies that can kill off any invading swimmers!  But most importantly...and don't forget this one...its the will of god when a man takes a woman against her will and forcibily rapes her. 

I mean, why even have laws against rape?  And I don't care if I am strawmanning this argument to death.  These are the things your fellow conservatives are saying.  These are the platforms they are running on.  Its 2012, in America, and this is the best we got in terms candidates to run our country?  These are the people you will vote for? 

We should all be outraged.  And you are fraud for continuing to bob and weave and duck the issue being discussed. 

This is the best response I've read to date on the issue. In fact..in the future..I am going to save my breath where Skeeter is concerned and just refer him back to this post. I agree 1000%  with everything you've written and could not have said it better.

As far as Skeeter's ludicrous assertion that he "hasn't heard from any women who have been raped"..I'll just say this. First Skeeter..no one knows what personal experiences a person brings to anonymous discussion forums..so I would not assume that we haven't heard from someone in that situation..no doubt someone who disagrees strongly with your position.

Second...and I'll type this slowly so you can understand it....it   is    none   of   your   business. A woman doesn't have to talk about the traumatic events in her life in order to have an opinion. If you are interested in learning how women who have been victimized by rape feel about this issue..I suggest you visit an online support group for such a thing...or even do some reading beyond the obviously limited sources you already glean your information from.

Sad Choice , Gone but never forgotten

In response to miscricket's comment:

 

I haven't heard from any women who have been raped, and are pregnant IN THIS FORUM.  You are distoriting things just like your hero Obama.

You are welcome to your opinion,  as I am mine.  Sorry I err on the side of thinking things through versus jumping right into the liberal lie "our bodies, ourselves".  They are treating you, as women, like animals.

I am glad you typed slowly.  Maybe it gave you time to think about the other life in this nasty problem, the unborn.  I am simply asking for that life to be considered as well, and to not expect that life to pay for the sins of the father, and to be offered as a sacrifice for the mother.  Not such an unreasonable position to consider, to consider, outside of massachusetts.  Only asking that you consider it, and you paint me as a an ogre.  I'll take it that as evidence that you haven't (or won't) consider other opinions generated outside of the Planned Parenthood thought bubble.

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In response to skeeter20's comment:

[/QUOTE]

 

I haven't heard from any women who have been raped, and are pregnant IN THIS FORUM.  You are distoriting things just like your hero Obama.

You are welcome to your opinion,  as I am mine.  Sorry I err on the side of thinking things through versus jumping right into the liberal lie "our bodies, ourselves".  They are treating you, as women, like animals.

I am glad you typed slowly.  Maybe it gave you time to think about the other life in this nasty problem, the unborn.  I am simply asking for that life to be considered as well, and to not expect that life to pay for the sins of the father, and to be offered as a sacrifice for the mother.  Not such an unreasonable position to consider, to consider, outside of massachusetts.  Only asking that you consider it, and you paint me as a an ogre.  I'll take it that as evidence that you haven't (or won't) consider other opinions generated outside of the Planned Parenthood thought bubble.

[/QUOTE]

How do you know that..? Do you really think a woman would broadcast such a personal thing on an anonymous political discussion forum..?? Do you really need her to?? Do you know any women at all skeeter...any..?

You are correct that you are entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to is to push your opinion on others ..especially women..as the law of the land. If you don't understand how hurtful and insulting Mourdock's comments are to women who have been raped..then you are more ignorant than I could have imagined.

The decision whether to go through with any pregnancy resulting from a rape is personal, painful and none of ANYONE'S business..especially the government.

In response to miscricket's comment:

 

I haven't heard from any women who have been raped, and are pregnant IN THIS FORUM.  You are distoriting things just like your hero Obama.

You are welcome to your opinion,  as I am mine.  Sorry I err on the side of thinking things through versus jumping right into the liberal lie "our bodies, ourselves".  They are treating you, as women, like animals.

I am glad you typed slowly.  Maybe it gave you time to think about the other life in this nasty problem, the unborn.  I am simply asking for that life to be considered as well, and to not expect that life to pay for the sins of the father, and to be offered as a sacrifice for the mother.  Not such an unreasonable position to consider, to consider, outside of massachusetts.  Only asking that you consider it, and you paint me as a an ogre.  I'll take it that as evidence that you haven't (or won't) consider other opinions generated outside of the Planned Parenthood thought bubble.

[/QUOTE]

How do you know that..? Do you really think a woman would broadcast such a personal thing on an anonymous political discussion forum..?? Do you really need her to?? Do you know any women at all skeeter...any..?

You are correct that you are entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to is to push your opinion on others ..especially women..as the law of the land. If you don't understand how hurtful and insulting Mourdock's comments are to women who have been raped..then you are more ignorant than I could have imagined.

The decision whether to go through with any pregnancy resulting from a rape is personal, painful and none of ANYONE'S business..especially the government.

[/QUOTE]

How am I pushing my opinion on others? Someone puts forth the opinion that the unborn should be killed in the case of rape, I say perhaps, perhaps they should not.  How is that pushing my opinion on others?

this is the problem with the left.  Only your opinions are valid, only your opinions count. All other opinions are pushing opinions on others, as if your opinions don't do the same thing.

 

I have yet to see you respond to the opionion of the woman I did post, a survivor of the attempt to eliminate her inconvenient life.  Can you reconcile her life, that she lives and breathes, walks amoung us, with your militant view that the unborn as a product of rape need to be killed?

I ask you to examine her testimony not becasue I think it will change your mind, I have no illusions about that, but to get you to at least consider the consequences of your philosophy.  here is someone who triumphed, personally, against your philosophy.  so, I ask you, seeing she escaped your radical proposition, theat the unbornas aproduct of rape shoudl be killed,  what should we do with her now?

I will tell you this:  The decision is very perosnal to her, as you claim the same for the mother.  Just asking that you consider their may be another valid opinion on this.

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In response to chiefhowie's comment:

The meaning of the event is what is important.  You have apparently forgotten that.  Smart people differ on the issue.  Why don't you respect the beliefs of others?

In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:

Do you want to kill innocent children, yes or no?

In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:

The answer is obvious, Skeeter and other social concservatives want to impose their religious beliefs on others through the power of the government.  At the very least this includes outlawing abortion and prosecuting those that use it.  And what is truly disgusting is that they pretend to support the concept of individual rights... apparently this is true ONLY if they get to define those rights.

In response to Reubenhop's comment:

Excellent comment !

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In response to Reubenhop's comment:

Why son't I respect the beliefts of oythers?  Why don't you respect my beleifs?  This is the problem:  liberals think they have conrnered the market on valid opinions.

No doubt the event is important.  Events have consequences.  Consequences are not as cleanly defined as liberals would like.

Look, rail against me all you want.  What you are doing is denying that there is another opinion in this matter.  you dismiss it out of hand.  Because, everyone knows that the unborn child is evil, not worthy of life, right?  Afterall, the child must be made to pay for the crime of the father, right? 

Read the testimony I posted, expand your mind, and understand that ths is not as clear cut of an abortion issue that you would like to make it.

In response to skeeter20's comment:

Oh. You think you are entitled to demand that? Do yourself a favor and drown in a bucket of water.

Skeeter20 - Is it your world view that a woman who becomes pregnant as the result of a rape should then have to bear the emotional and financial cost of the result of that rape? In addition, never being free from the rapist/biological father? Bottom line is the victim should have the choice.

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In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:

No.  My view is that this is not a clean issue at all.  Why, for example, do some conservatives hold the opinion that Abortion is wrong, except in the case of rape and incest?  Now, the precipitating act is obviously wrong, but the issue of abortion doesn't change at all.  in both cases there is the life of the mother and the life of the unborn child to consider.

There is also the issue of the unborn child paying the price with their life, for the sin of the father.  Do you see that as a slam dunk issue?  If you do, then you have no heart.  You have alos sacrified the baby as an attonment for the victim.  You have created another victim, the unborn chld,  in the process.  Who attones for that victim?

Life is full of consequences.  I don't think we should draw a big circle around abortion and call it consequence free, or beyond discussion.  It is simply intellectually dishonest to do so.

In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:

So killing a child is preferable in order to allow the mother to do what, exactly?

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