AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to macnh1's comment:

    too many variables...

    Here's the one question that matters.....


    Sorry, but there are many questions that 'matter', as this and other research constantly prove over and over again the basic premise:

    We pay too much for too little health care compared with other wealthy nations.  

     

    Both empirically and in practice, the U.S. does NOT have the "best health care on earth".  Period.

    (Unless, of course, one can afford it.  Does that question "matter" to you, too...?)

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     Obamacare's most vocal critics admit as much when they argue that all the good doctors (providers) came here because of our health care system.

     




    And many will leave now after this ACA debacle.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Why?

    And where will they go?

    Most other wealthy nations already have universal health care....

     

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to macnh1's comment:

     

    So where would you take your critically ill family member if not Boston, MA..USA????  Best health care on the planet....

    Only if one can afford it.

    And that's the rub.

     

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     proof that "we have the best health care in the world" gibberish is just a sad, expensive lie.

     



     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     proof that "we have the best health care in the world" gibberish is just a sad, expensive lie.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     proof that "we have the best health care in the world" gibberish is just a sad, expensive lie.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     proof that "we have the best health care in the world" gibberish is just a sad, expensive lie.

     

    [/QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Response:

    Blank stare.

    Fifteen minutes pass.

    Eyes flutter.

    BUT OBAMACARE WILL MAKE IT WORSE! WHO CARES WHAT I SAID BEFORE!

    [/QUOTE]

    And, you think Obamacare will make this better?

    These studies, particularly one's from the uber liberal AMA, tend to have assumptions hidden  within them.  So, I'm suspect.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    You get shot, they take to the hospital. If you want to measure how well the health care system does you measure THE TREATMENT. That would be collecting data on how many survive, what the injury was, how long between the shooting and getting treatment, etc.  NOT collecting data on life expectancy and correlating that to what the health care system does.

    Let's say there are two hospitals, one in the US and another in the UK. In the US hospital, they get 100 visits to the ER by gunshot victims with an average age of 23. In the UK they get 4 with an average age of 30. In the US 20 die from their wounds, in the UK, they all die.

    Because the US has more deaths by gun violence that would drag down their life expectancy statistics. But does that mean the US has worse health care in this case?? No, it means more people get shot and die younger here. The same situation exists for deaths from car accidents, drug overdoses, obesity.

    You are concluding that the US Health Care system  is causing a lower life expectancy here when there is not even a correlation. 

    It is a completely bogus conclusion.

    If you can't figure it out then you are just an ideological wing nut.

     

     




     

    There's a BIG problem with your completely anecdotal and unsourced opinion... it runs head on into the actual data and makes you look stoopid.

    One of the categories measured is 'inter-personal violence' i.e. gunshots and such.

    The US ranks 33rd out of 34 countries.

    So just quit wasting pixels expousing on your alternate reality already, it's embarassing you.

    [/QUOTE]

    Really. How do they measure that? I guess we should drop all the angst about too many guns amongst libruls?

    I'll look it up. No doubt it is a biased as the rest of the BS.

    What about other categories like obesity, car accidents, drugs etc? 

    I guess we have that all under control??

    The net of it is that to measure a health care system is a collectivist perspective. To measure by what happens when an individual goes to the doctor/hospital for treament is an individual perspective.

    I am biased to individual rights versus collectivist nonsense. 

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

     

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Anecdotal, at best.  Speculative, at worst.

    The empirical data provided here shows what happens as a direct result of medical treatment.  Lacking other data to dispute its conclusions, the data stands.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to chiefhowie's comment:

    Just wondering why everyone comes to the USA for health care ?



    "Everyone" doesn't.

    We've shown the numbers here before how far more people travel FROM the U.S. for treatment in other countries than those who travel TO the U.S. for treatment.

    Believe it or don't, but it's a fact.

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to macnh1's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    So where would you take your critically ill family member if not Boston, MA..USA????  Best health care on the planet....

     

     

    Only if one can afford it.

    And that's the rub.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought ACA was going to help make it affordable? 

     
  11. This post has been removed.

     
  12. This post has been removed.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    You get shot, they take to the hospital. If you want to measure how well the health care system does you measure THE TREATMENT. That would be collecting data on how many survive, what the injury was, how long between the shooting and getting treatment, etc.  NOT collecting data on life expectancy and correlating that to what the health care system does.

    Let's say there are two hospitals, one in the US and another in the UK. In the US hospital, they get 100 visits to the ER by gunshot victims with an average age of 23. In the UK they get 4 with an average age of 30. In the US 20 die from their wounds, in the UK, they all die.

    Because the US has more deaths by gun violence that would drag down their life expectancy statistics. But does that mean the US has worse health care in this case?? No, it means more people get shot and die younger here. The same situation exists for deaths from car accidents, drug overdoses, obesity.

    You are concluding that the US Health Care system  is causing a lower life expectancy here when there is not even a correlation. 

    It is a completely bogus conclusion.

     



     

    No. You are making a logical mistake. You are assuming that the existence of self-harm and accidental harm means that the quality of the health care system has no effect on overall life expectancy.

    But it does, for obvious reasons. Two simple thought experiments.

     

    Accidental harm:

    1. Would you rather be shot in America or Zimbabwe?

     

    Self harm:

    2. Do you think you would have more or less chance of success quitting smoking if you had access to a doctor, advice on quitting methods/therapy, nicotine gum, etc., - all of which is present in our health care system.....

    ....or if you were in Zimbabwe?

     

    Preventative care


    3. Do you think checkups, advice, etc, are more likely to catch and counter your problems in America or Zimbabwe.

     

     

     

     

     

    Bottom line:

    You are acting like the quality of a health care system has nothing to do with the providers who are attracted to become part of it, and the care they therefore provide.

    A healthcare system is insurers, facilities, doctors, medicine, equipment: All of that together.

    Of course these things are connected. Obamacare's most vocal critics admit as much when they argue that all the good doctors (providers) came here because of our health care system.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, can't deep dive the data, but it is possible that shorter waits, better access, and more medical technology sin't having the positive impact on healthcare intheis country that it should.

    or-

    As tvoter states, it is about to get a lot worse.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     

     

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

     

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

     

     

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Anecdotal, at best.  Speculative, at worst.

     

    The empirical data provided here shows what happens as a direct result of medical treatment.  Lacking other data to dispute its conclusions, the data stands.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, no.  I disagree,  

    The only avenue left ot lefites is to control behaior in order to control healhtcare costs.  

    Do you think this no 16 oz sodas, Michelle Obama food plans, transfats being outlawed, all this is happening in a vacummn?

    Obamacare is one peice of a bigger puzzle, to control and modify your behavior, so you will respond " yes sir/No sir" when government asks you a question.

    The future progressive mantra is something like "eat a dougnut, got to jail".

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    You get shot, they take to the hospital. If you want to measure how well the health care system does you measure THE TREATMENT. That would be collecting data on how many survive, what the injury was, how long between the shooting and getting treatment, etc.  NOT collecting data on life expectancy and correlating that to what the health care system does.

    Let's say there are two hospitals, one in the US and another in the UK. In the US hospital, they get 100 visits to the ER by gunshot victims with an average age of 23. In the UK they get 4 with an average age of 30. In the US 20 die from their wounds, in the UK, they all die.

    Because the US has more deaths by gun violence that would drag down their life expectancy statistics. But does that mean the US has worse health care in this case?? No, it means more people get shot and die younger here. The same situation exists for deaths from car accidents, drug overdoses, obesity.

    You are concluding that the US Health Care system  is causing a lower life expectancy here when there is not even a correlation. 

    It is a completely bogus conclusion.

     



     

    No. You are making a logical mistake. You are assuming that the existence of self-harm and accidental harm means that the quality of the health care system has no effect on overall life expectancy.

    But it does, for obvious reasons. Two simple thought experiments.

     

    Accidental harm:

    1. Would you rather be shot in America or Zimbabwe?

     

    Self harm:

    2. Do you think you would have more or less chance of success quitting smoking if you had access to a doctor, advice on quitting methods/therapy, nicotine gum, etc., - all of which is present in our health care system.....

    ....or if you were in Zimbabwe?

     

    Preventative care


    3. Do you think checkups, advice, etc, are more likely to catch and counter your problems in America or Zimbabwe.

     

     

     

     

     

    Bottom line:

    You are acting like the quality of a health care system has nothing to do with the providers who are attracted to become part of it, and the care they therefore provide.

    A healthcare system is insurers, facilities, doctors, medicine, equipment: All of that together.

    Of course these things are connected. Obamacare's most vocal critics admit as much when they argue that all the good doctors (providers) came here because of our health care system.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I am not saying that. I am saying that because we have a higher percentage of people with unhealthy behaviors that drags down life expectancy stats. And it is not logical to measure a hospital by something it has no control over. 

     

    Where am I more likely to get shot, America or Iceland?

    Where am I more likely to be fat from a lousy diet, America or China?

    Where is it more likely to find people dying of drug overdoses?

    Where am I more likely to die in a car accident?

    Yes the health care system has a role in these incident - treatment. That is what should be measured. Even if we have better treament outcomes the bad behaviors are so much more prevalent it could outweigh treatment.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    You get shot, they take to the hospital. If you want to measure how well the health care system does you measure THE TREATMENT. That would be collecting data on how many survive, what the injury was, how long between the shooting and getting treatment, etc.  NOT collecting data on life expectancy and correlating that to what the health care system does.

    Let's say there are two hospitals, one in the US and another in the UK. In the US hospital, they get 100 visits to the ER by gunshot victims with an average age of 23. In the UK they get 4 with an average age of 30. In the US 20 die from their wounds, in the UK, they all die.

    Because the US has more deaths by gun violence that would drag down their life expectancy statistics. But does that mean the US has worse health care in this case?? No, it means more people get shot and die younger here. The same situation exists for deaths from car accidents, drug overdoses, obesity.

    You are concluding that the US Health Care system  is causing a lower life expectancy here when there is not even a correlation. 

    It is a completely bogus conclusion.

     

     



     

     

    No. You are making a logical mistake. You are assuming that the existence of self-harm and accidental harm means that the quality of the health care system has no effect on overall life expectancy.

    But it does, for obvious reasons. Two simple thought experiments.

     

    Accidental harm:

    1. Would you rather be shot in America or Zimbabwe?

     

    Self harm:

    2. Do you think you would have more or less chance of success quitting smoking if you had access to a doctor, advice on quitting methods/therapy, nicotine gum, etc., - all of which is present in our health care system.....

    ....or if you were in Zimbabwe?

     

    Preventative care


    3. Do you think checkups, advice, etc, are more likely to catch and counter your problems in America or Zimbabwe.

     

     

     

     

     

    Bottom line:

    You are acting like the quality of a health care system has nothing to do with the providers who are attracted to become part of it, and the care they therefore provide.

    A healthcare system is insurers, facilities, doctors, medicine, equipment: All of that together.

    Of course these things are connected. Obamacare's most vocal critics admit as much when they argue that all the good doctors (providers) came here because of our health care system.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    No, I am not saying that. I am saying that because we have a higher percentage of people with unhealthy behaviors that drags down life expectancy stats. And it is not logical to measure a hospital by something it has no control over. 

     

     

    Where am I more likely to get shot, America or Iceland?

    Where am I more likely to be fat from a lousy diet, America or China?

    Where is it more likely to find people dying of drug overdoses?

    Where am I more likely to die in a car accident?

    Yes the health care system has a role in these incident - treatment. That is what should be measured. Even if we have better treament outcomes the bad behaviors are so much more prevalent it could outweigh treatment.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly right. Our behaviors have a HUGE impact on our life expectancy. We have great doctors and hospitals here. But if I don't go to my doctor for regular checkups then there is only so much doctors and hospitals can do to save me when the pain I was ignoring all those years turned out to now be stage 4 cancer. Too late. People like Airborne feel it's ok to put blame on our health care system rather than putting the blame where it belongs...on me for not taking advantage of our health care early enough.

    Look at our obesity rate. We all know those who are obese have been instructed by their doctor to start exercising and eating healthier, yet our obesity rate keeps going up. Most aren't taking their doctors advice. Same goes for smoking. Drugs use. Alcohol abuse. 

    We also have too many morons who have zero commonsense who leave loaded guns around for kids to pick up and accidentally shoot themselves or their sibling. 

    We're all in such a fcking hurry that we drive too fast and reckless and as a result cause deaths

    We also have stress levels off the charts. No other country worries about work like we do here. So unhealthy and a killer for many

    We change our priorities and mindsets a bit and we would be that much healthier. But I won't hold my breath on that.

     

     
  17. This post has been removed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to macnh1's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    So where would you take your critically ill family member if not Boston, MA..USA????  Best health care on the planet....

     

     

     

     

    Only if one can afford it.

    And that's the rub.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought ACA was going to help make it affordable? 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    By shifting care models from the emergency room to the doctor's office?  It will absolutely be more affordable.

    Currently, ER care is as pricey as it gets.

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     

     

     

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

     

     

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

     

     

     

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Anecdotal, at best.  Speculative, at worst.

     

     

    The empirical data provided here shows what happens as a direct result of medical treatment.  Lacking other data to dispute its conclusions, the data stands.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, no.  I disagree,  

     

    The only avenue left ot lefites is to control behaior in order to control healhtcare costs.  

    Do you think this no 16 oz sodas, Michelle Obama food plans, transfats being outlawed, all this is happening in a vacummn?

    Obamacare is one peice of a bigger puzzle, to control and modify your behavior, so you will respond " yes sir/No sir" when government asks you a question.

    The future progressive mantra is something like "eat a dougnut, got to jail".

    [/QUOTE]

    Any health behaviors "controlled" will be under the supervision of a doctor in a preventative care model, as opposed to an emergency room, reactive care model.

    Any govt-imposed market restrictions - same as with cigarettes or alcohol - are incidental to the larger goal of more people within the health care system and thus a generally healthier population.

    The only "control" is to get more people with healthcare coverage...a "behavior" that even conservatives should view as the responsible thing to do.

     

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to macnh1's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    So where would you take your critically ill family member if not Boston, MA..USA????  Best health care on the planet....

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Only if one can afford it.

    And that's the rub.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought ACA was going to help make it affordable? 

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    By shifting care models from the emergency room to the doctor's office?  It will absolutely be more affordable.

     

    Currently, ER care is as pricey as it gets.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry but that alone will not cut costs enough to counter the costs associated with the likes of obesity and smoking as two examples.

     
  21. This post has been removed.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to macnh1's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

    So where would you take your critically ill family member if not Boston, MA..USA????  Best health care on the planet....

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Only if one can afford it.

    And that's the rub.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I thought ACA was going to help make it affordable? 

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    By shifting care models from the emergency room to the doctor's office?  It will absolutely be more affordable.

     

     

    Currently, ER care is as pricey as it gets.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Sorry but that alone will not cut costs enough to counter the costs associated with the likes of obesity and smoking as two examples.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I disagree.  Over time, that's precisely how the cost curve bends.

    Now, as you've suggested, will it totally prevent knuckleheads who choose to smoke, drink, or wave their guns like cowboys?  Of course not.  This is America, where public idiocy is a common pastime (and point of pride in some circles).

    But that was never the goal of the law, either.  (Saying it was is frankly dishonest.)  It addresses the systemic problems which inflates all the costs of health care into the inefficient morass we have now...

    ...and the inefficiency and less-than-stellar patient outcomes which are directly measured in this study.

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ppannos. Show ppannos's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     

     

     

     

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

     

     

     

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

     

     

     

     

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Anecdotal, at best.  Speculative, at worst.

     

     

     

    The empirical data provided here shows what happens as a direct result of medical treatment.  Lacking other data to dispute its conclusions, the data stands.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, no.  I disagree,  

     

     

    The only avenue left ot lefites is to control behaior in order to control healhtcare costs.  

    Do you think this no 16 oz sodas, Michelle Obama food plans, transfats being outlawed, all this is happening in a vacummn?

    Obamacare is one peice of a bigger puzzle, to control and modify your behavior, so you will respond " yes sir/No sir" when government asks you a question.

    The future progressive mantra is something like "eat a dougnut, got to jail".

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Any health behaviors "controlled" will be under the supervision of a doctor in a preventative care model, as opposed to an emergency room, reactive care model.

     

    Any govt-imposed market restrictions - same as with cigarettes or alcohol - are incidental to the larger goal of more people within the health care system and thus a generally healthier population.

    The only "control" is to get more people with healthcare coverage...a "behavior" that even conservatives should view as the responsible thing to do.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Who specifically 'benefits' from O-Care IF working people who have insurance will only pay more?

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    The only "control" is to get more people with healthcare coverage...a "behavior" that even conservatives should view as the responsible thing to do.

     




     

    They were for it, in fact they created the idea and test case for it, but then the Kenyan-muslim-communist-usurper latched onto it so naturally they had to eat their young in response.

    That's a nasty habit the wingnuts have, of turning on their own ideas, sometimes in mid-form and by filibustering their own bills.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's not just a habit.  It's pathological.

    Ask the gays, minorities, immigrants and women whom they've repelled en masse.

    Blame the dems for not being forthright enough to come up with the ideas in the first place or having the gonads to push them through.

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: AMA: U.S. Health Care is 28th in Health Outcomes

    In response to ppannos' comment:

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Somehow it is not surprising that an organization of doctors is doing a bogus analysis to unlock more money for them and their health care colleagues.

     

     

     

     

     

     



    How is it "bogus", exactly?

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Do you have data that conflicts with the AMA's findings...?  

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes.

     

     

     

     

     

    The evidence is that the health care "system" does not have the ability to control behaviors that cause pre-mature death in this country.   They can't force you to eat the right food, get exercise and maintain a healthy weight. They can't force you to drive safely or to avoid getting shot. THey can't force you not to take drugs.  All of these behaviors are more prevalent here than they are in most other developed countries, aren't they? So why would it be a surprise that our life expectancy would trend badly behind other countries that haven't learned how to kill themselves slowly as well as we have?

    All of these self-destructive behaviors are out of the reach of our health care system. To measure the effectiveness of our health care system based on life expectancy assumes they have control over these behaviors. It doesn't. So why would people measure our health care system in such a bogus fashion? 

    If you want to measure our health care system it should be by what happens when you go to it for help or treatment. If I am a drug adddles bum sitting in the gutter and I never go to the hospital/doctor/clinic and I die in the streets at 32, why should that pre-mature death be a measurement of our health care system that never had a chance to help him?

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Anecdotal, at best.  Speculative, at worst.

     

     

     

     

    The empirical data provided here shows what happens as a direct result of medical treatment.  Lacking other data to dispute its conclusions, the data stands.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, no.  I disagree,  

     

     

     

    The only avenue left ot lefites is to control behaior in order to control healhtcare costs.  

    Do you think this no 16 oz sodas, Michelle Obama food plans, transfats being outlawed, all this is happening in a vacummn?

    Obamacare is one peice of a bigger puzzle, to control and modify your behavior, so you will respond " yes sir/No sir" when government asks you a question.

    The future progressive mantra is something like "eat a dougnut, got to jail".

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Any health behaviors "controlled" will be under the supervision of a doctor in a preventative care model, as opposed to an emergency room, reactive care model.

     

     

    Any govt-imposed market restrictions - same as with cigarettes or alcohol - are incidental to the larger goal of more people within the health care system and thus a generally healthier population.

    The only "control" is to get more people with healthcare coverage...a "behavior" that even conservatives should view as the responsible thing to do.

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Who specifically 'benefits' from O-Care IF working people who have insurance will only pay more?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The people who didn't have insurance, for one...working or not.

    And with more people on the rolls getting better, more efficient care, both the costs and the premiums will go down.

     

     

Share