Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?


    I don't care if you want to call it torture or patty-cake. If we catch Al-Zwalaki (spelling?) I don't care what they do to him. Torture him, rip his finger nails out etc. I don't see him as a human. A human doesn't kill someone because they are Americans. A human doesn't kill women and children because they are Americans. In short, I don't see them as human never mind as soldiers. The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them and never shoul
    Posted by brat13 (in National News: Bush Indictment for Convention Against Torture Signatory States)


    One of you admitted what lurked in the depths of your heart.

    In that thread, I asked whether anyone wanted to drop this "waterboarding isn't torture" lie, and get to the heart of it:  Is it ever acceptable to torture to increase the probability of saving lives?

    If so, what torture?  How much?  How many lives is it to be balanced against?  In short...what guiding principles could justify the practice?

    The answer I got obviously went a lot farther: If a foreigner kills an American, we should torture the foreigner for the sake of revenge.

    Well why keep that distinction.  On brat's logic, all murderers should be tortured.


    Does anyone else think we should torture murderers?
    Or only enemey soldiers?
    Or only admitted terrorists?


    Does anyone think we should torture suspected terrorists to increase the probability of saving lives - why and what rules?

    If you think we should do that, why not torture any suspected criminal to discover future plots and colleagues?




    How low can we sink?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    Frankly, I am abhorred by the concept of torturing for revenge.  I am, quite literally, shocked.  This is not hyperbole.

    Torture is barbarism. Torture for safety is grosteque enough, but we will be no better than Stalin, if we start torturing for punishment.

    Sub-human.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    And perpetrated by our government...possibly from the highest levels.

    Shameful.  A national disgrace.

    And now whenever any other government (or enemy combatant) tortures anyone, especially Americans, they can just point to the Bush Administration and say, "Look, they did it, so why can't we?"

    Now Bush is afraid to travel to europe...like a deadbeat dad who's skipped out on his obligation.

    Turns out that some of us critics turned out to be right after all.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    Even Bush and Cheney do not advocate torturing simply for revenge.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from RevWright. Show RevWright's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    Sounds reasonable.

    They kill AND torture.. non combatants..

    We give them lawyers, their religion, their food, and a very easy life.

    Yep.. fair and balanced.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobinVa. Show BobinVa's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    To express joy at the possible arrest of our President overseas,  by radical Marxist dirtbags, based on lying scum terrorists who were trained to falsely claim torture, makes me ill.
    And you wonder why Leftists are accused of not being patriotic. You moonbats are a disgrace, with your phony outrage at those who risked their lives for our country. 
    The interrogation methods on these terrorists were reviewed ad nauseum by lawyers, there was consultation with Congress.
    Torture involves intentional infliction of severe pain and permanent scars and injuries.  This was not torture. 

     
    Tiger Express:
    " Coercive interrogation methods save lives. Stress positions, altering room temperatures, sleep deprivation, and playing loud music are not torture.

    As for waterboarding, the United States has never killed anybody using this method. It was only been used on three people, one of them being 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. This broke him, and led to the disruption of major mass terror plots.  Lives were saved.

    The occurrences such as Abu Gharaib were less serious than what kids suffer at various Summer camps, and college students suffer at fraternities. Our soldiers gave the prisoners the equivalent of “wet willies” or “zerberts.” Nevertheless, we conducted an investigation, and the people responsible were punished. We also apologized. I am still waiting for the murderers of Daniel Pearl to apologize.


    We are nothing like our enemies. We are not even close. We do not torture. We do use coercive interrogation methods."

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    One of you admitted what lurked in the depths of your heart. In that thread, I asked whether anyone wanted to drop this "waterboarding isn't torture" lie, and get to the heart of it:  Is it ever acceptable to torture to increase the probability of saving lives? If so, what torture?  How much?  How many lives is it to be balanced against?  In short...what guiding principles could justify the practice? The answer I got obviously went a lot farther: If a foreigner kills an American, we should torture the foreigner for the sake of revenge. Well why keep that distinction.  On brat's logic, all murderers should be tortured. Does anyone else think we should torture murderers? Or only enemey soldiers? Or only admitted terrorists? Does anyone think we should torture suspected terrorists to increase the probability of saving lives - why and what rules? If you think we should do that, why not torture any suspected criminal to discover future plots and colleagues? How low can we sink?
    Posted by WhatIsItNow

    LOL, you chastise me about lying then type this crap? Show me ONE place I said "if a foreigner kills an American we should torture them". Just one place!
    What I said is terrorists are not humans. They are animals and if captured we should do whatever is needed to get whatever information from them we can. Again you try to spin the words. Nice try!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BobinVa. Show BobinVa's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    NY Times:
    "according to many Bush administration officials, including former Vice President Dick Cheney and some intelligence officers who are critics of the coercive methods, the C.I.A. program would also produce an invaluable trove of information on Al Qaeda, including leads on the whereabouts of important operatives and on terror schemes discussed by Al Qaeda. Whether the same information could have been acquired using the traditional, noncoercive methods that the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the military have long used is impossible to say, and former Bush administration officials say they did not have the luxury of time to develop a more patient approach, given that they had intelligence warnings of further attacks."

    If the US had been hit with another attack, the Bush administration would have been savaged for letting it happen, and not using coercive interrogation. 
    They made the best decision under the circumstances, and they prevented mass terror attacks.
    And now American leftists want Bush subject to arrest overseas; that is nauseating. 
    Obama's missile attacks incinerating terror 'suspects' in Pakistan is a lot worse torture than capture, isnt it? Will he be arrested, too?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    Frankly, I am abhorred by the concept of torturing for revenge.  I am, quite literally, shocked.  This is not hyperbole. Torture is barbarism. Torture for safety is grosteque enough, but we will be no better than Stalin, if we start torturing for punishment. Sub-human.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow

    Are you Mike Dukakis? If someone raped your wife you would lower your eyes and ask the court for leniency!
    No, we will always be better than Stalin, Hussein and Bin Laden for one very simple reason that you seem to not be able to grasp. We don't torture journalists and women and children and kill them because they are an ethnic group. We don't torture soldiers of a national military standing against us on a battle field. We don't even torture terrorists, that is in your mind. I know you and Matty can't see the difference but that is not my issue or concern.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    Frankly, I am abhorred by the concept of torturing for revenge.  I am, quite literally, shocked.  This is not hyperbole. Torture is barbarism. Torture for safety is grosteque enough, but we will be no better than Stalin, if we start torturing for punishment. Sub-human.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow

    At least now I understand why you have this uncontrollable urge to lie. You are a defense lawyer and it is what you do! You can't control it! Good for you!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from beKool. Show beKool's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    Even Bush and Cheney do not advocate torturing simply for revenge.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    Yea its just to bad they did torture while making those claims huh ? Iraq was all about revenge for daddy .
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    To express joy at the possible arrest of our President overseas,  by radical Marxist dirtbags, based on lying scum terrorists who were trained to falsely claim torture, makes me ill. And you wonder why Leftists are accused of not being patriotic. You moonbats are a disgrace, with your phony outrage at those who risked their lives for our country.  The interrogation methods on these terrorists were reviewed ad nauseum by lawyers, there was consultation with Congress. Torture involves intentional infliction of severe pain and permanent scars and injuries.  This was not torture.    Tiger Express: " Coercive interrogation methods save lives. Stress positions, altering room temperatures, sleep deprivation, and playing loud music are not torture. As for waterboarding, the United States has never killed anybody using this method. It was only been used on three people, one of them being 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. This broke him, and led to the disruption of major mass terror plots.  Lives were saved. The occurrences such as Abu Gharaib were less serious than what kids suffer at various Summer camps, and college students suffer at fraternities. Our soldiers gave the prisoners the equivalent of “wet willies” or “zerberts.” Nevertheless, we conducted an investigation, and the people responsible were punished. We also apologized. I am still waiting for the murderers of Daniel Pearl to apologize. We are nothing like our enemies. We are not even close. We do not torture. We do use coercive interrogation methods."
    Posted by BobinVa



    Right, I know.  Cheney told you that waterboarding isn't torture, and Gonzalez drafted a memo as commanded.  You believed it.

    Been through this a million times.  You don't have to listen to terrorists' descriptions of waterboarding.  There are accounts from victims regarding just about every permutation of the practice. I've posted them many times here.  They're all awful.

    Torturing because you are afraid?  You disgust me. 

    Only a subhuman coward would advocate that; sounds like you are afraid that the "leftists" you hate so much outman you.


    (You also didn't exactly follow the thread, which was aimed at brat's desire to rip fingernails out, and do anything else, for revenge....  )
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen? : Are you Mike Dukakis? If someone raped your wife you would lower your eyes and ask the court for leniency! No, we will always be better than Stalin, Hussein and Bin Laden for one very simple reason that you seem to not be able to grasp.
    Posted by brat13


    So government should do whatever an individual might do in a moment of profound rage and human weakness? 

    I might act in rage and weakness, killing the man who raped my wife, and therefore you think I should agree that the government should torture terrorists for revenge?

    Hey, it's like Jesus said: Rip your enemies fingernails out and burn them at the stake!

    ________________________________________________________________

    Permit me to address your desparate back-pedaling.


    Show me ONE place I said "if a foreigner kills an American we should torture them". Just one place!
    Posted by brat13

    I don't care if you want to call it torture or patty-cake. If we catch Al-Zwalaki (spelling?) I don't care what they do to him. Torture him, rip his finger nails out etc.  I don't see him as a human. A human doesn't kill someone because they are Americans. A human doesn't kill women and children because they are Americans. In short, I don't see them as human never mind as soldiers. The Geneva Convention doesn't apply to them and never should.
    Posted by brat13

    It advocates torturing a TERRORIST! PERIOD!

    Posted by brat13

     

    Hard to un-say things, eh?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    If some expert says that it is something less than that, ok, fine with me.
    Posted by Newtster


    I take it this means you ignored all the experts who said that "something less than that", aka normal interrogation, worked perfectly well?

    I take it this means you ignored all the experts who said that torture or waterboarding produces whatever the victim thinks will make the pain stop? 

    Again, where are you getting that waterboarding ever saved a life?  The only people saying that are the waterboarders. But they won't tell you whose lives, what plots, or how.

    In every other instance, you suspect government is conspiring against you, or at the very least will completely screw up everything it does.  But, you trust the government to torture.

    We used to hang people, we used to shoot them.  We did not torture them.  Every civilized nation and person recognizes it as barabarism, a throwback to when mankind grasped at the roots of consciousness.

    But, as an armchair tough-guy would say, "shiite happens"...   unbelievable.


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    Navy seals have been waterboarding recruits for years as part of the routine training program so, every Commander in Chief since the 50's has condoned torture in this manner!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    In Response to Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen? : LOL, you chastise me about lying then type this crap? Show me ONE place I said "if a foreigner kills an American we should torture them". Just one place! What I said is terrorists are not humans. They are animals and if captured we should do whatever is needed to get whatever information from them we can. Again you try to spin the words. Nice try!
    Posted by brat13


    Terrorists are not human?  There is a long tradition of dehumanizing the enemy so you can brutalize them in turn.  It is understandable on an emotional level, but when you speak with cool rationality it is a dreadful display of unethical and inhumane practice.  You will become the enemy with this kind of thinking.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    Navy seals have been waterboarding recruits for years as part of the routine training program so, every Commander in Chief since the 50's has condoned torture in this manner!
    Posted by sk8ter2008


    We've been over this!  You know perfectly damn well that even the government acknolwedges that SERE is completely different from what they do to detainees.

    But, repeat lies to justify evil. 
    _______________________________________________________________
    according to a declassified Justice Department memo attempting to justify torture which references a still-classified report of the CIA Inspector General on the CIA's use of waterboarding, among other "enhanced" interrogation techniques, the CIA applied waterboarding to detainees "in a different manner" than the technique used in SERE training:

    The difference was in the manner in which the detainees' breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychiatrist / interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is 'for real' and is more poignant and convincing.\

    According to the DOJ memo, the IG Report observed that the CIA's Office of Medical Services (OMS) stated that "the experience of the SERE psychologist / interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant" and that "[c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-huffingtonpost.com-125

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-worthington/release-of-the-holy-grail_b_224447.html


    _______________________________________________________________
    Of course it doesn't really matter how many links are gathered and how many reports there are.

    You will still support it because you are scared.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThinkSnow99. Show ThinkSnow99's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    wet willies and zerberts......lol, now thats funny.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from WhatIsItNow. Show WhatIsItNow's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?


    Also it is the policy of our own government to let 400,000 people die every year from lung cancer caused by cigarette smoking. And for cigarette smoking we get what in return? Do we get drunk, high or a few calories? No. Nothing. There is no healthy use of a cigarette. So spare me the tears over a mistake done trying to defend people who risk their lives for the country.
    Posted by Newtster


    What?  Torture is OK because people give themselves cancer with cigarettes?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dazydo. Show dazydo's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    One of you admitted what lurked in the depths of your heart. In that thread, I asked whether anyone wanted to drop this "waterboarding isn't torture" lie, and get to the heart of it:  Is it ever acceptable to torture to increase the probability of saving lives? If so, what torture?  How much?  How many lives is it to be balanced against?  In short...what guiding principles could justify the practice? The answer I got obviously went a lot farther: If a foreigner kills an American, we should torture the foreigner for the sake of revenge. Well why keep that distinction.  On brat's logic, all murderers should be tortured. Does anyone else think we should torture murderers? Or only enemey soldiers? Or only admitted terrorists? Does anyone think we should torture suspected terrorists to increase the probability of saving lives - why and what rules? If you think we should do that, why not torture any suspected criminal to discover future plots and colleagues? How low can we sink?
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    Um, do you really believe that there is "no torture" by any American forces at this very moment?

    Or did only "Bush and Cheney" allow torture?  Are you out of your mind?  Never mind, silly question when it comes to your posts.

    Your President has two wars currently under his watch, plus countless secret operations all around the world, gimme a break.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen? : We've been over this!  You know perfectly damn well that even the government acknolwedges that SERE is completely different from what they do to detainees. But, repeat lies to justify evil.  _______________________________________________________________ according to a declassified Justice Department memo attempting to justify torture which references a still-classified report of the CIA Inspector General on the CIA's use of waterboarding, among other "enhanced" interrogation techniques, the CIA applied waterboarding to detainees "in a different manner" than the technique used in SERE training: The difference was in the manner in which the detainees' breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject's airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator ... applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee's mouth and nose. One of the psychiatrist / interrogators acknowledged that the Agency's use of the technique is different from that used in SERE training because it is 'for real' and is more poignant and convincing. \ According to the DOJ memo, the IG Report observed that the CIA's Office of Medical Services (OMS) stated that "the experience of the SERE psychologist / interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant" and that "[c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#cite_note-huffingtonpost.com-125 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-worthington/release-of-the-holy-grail_b_224447.html _______________________________________________________________ Of course it doesn't really matter how many links are gathered and how many reports there are. You will still support it because you are scared.
    Posted by WhatIsItNow


    Believe what you want but, I was in the USN for 6 years and I have seen what they do and did you really expect them to say "hell yea; we hold'em down and make them pukes think they are dying over and over"?

    kind of niave ain't cha.

    How many terrorist were confirmed killed by waterboarding?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from sk8ter2008. Show sk8ter2008's posts

    Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?

    In Response to Re: Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen?:
    In Response to Armchair Despots: Dime a dozen? : Um, do you really believe that there is "no torture" by any American forces at this very moment? Or did only "Bush and Cheney" allow torture?  Are you out of your mind?  Never mind, silly question when it comes to your posts. Your President has two wars currently under his watch, plus countless secret operations all around the world, gimme a break.
    Posted by dazydo


    I know he claims to be a lawyer and smart guy but, he thinks a President is going to just take office and stop practices that have been working in other countries for years without a serious rebellion in the intelligence community and the pentagon? Get real.

    The thing is in alot of cases (especially in certain coutries) when guys get caught they know whats going to happen and will try to kill thmselves before getting caught because they know once caught there are no secrets they will be able to keep. Therefore they spare themselves the senseless torture and tell everything they know. Why go through it when you know they will bring you to the gates of hell as many times as it takes in ways that are unimaginable until they know they have everything they need to know. It's not like once they start torturing you they are gonna stop just because you start talking. You get one chance to give credible/verifiable info upfront if, you decline then it's over and you are in "intense" interrogations for months regardless of what you start saying after it starts.
     
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