Australia's Living Wage

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    Unemployment rate = 5.6%

    http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/Pages/default.aspx

    National minimum wage for adults

    Currently the full-time minimum wage is $16.37 per hour or $622.20 per week. This means that most employees in the national system shouldn't get less than this.

    Casuals covered by the national minimum wage get an extra 24% ($20.30 per hour).

    National minimum wages for apprentices, juniors & trainees

    There are special national minimum wages for trainees, apprentices and juniors who don’t have an award or agreement. From 1 July 2013 these are:

    Juniors:

    Age % of national minimum wage Minimum hourly rate Under 16 36.8% $6.03 16 47.3% $7.74 17 57.8% $9.46 18 68.3% $11.18 19 82.5% $13.51 20 97.7% $16.00

    Apprentices

    Apprentices who aren’t covered by an award or agreement are entitled to the relevant rates in the Miscellaneous Award 2010.

      Year of apprenticeship % of the level 3 adult hourly rate ($19.07) Minimum hourly rate 1 55% $10.49 2 65% $12.39 3 80% $15.25 4 95%

    $18.11       

    Only about 2 percent of Australians, however, are covered by the minimum wage. The rest are covered by industry-wide agreements that are negotiated by the government on behalf of workers. The minimum wage in most of these agreements (including, for example, for adult fast food workers) is $17.03 an hour.

    But wait, there's more: full-time permanent employees in Australia, from toilet cleaners to chief executives, get at least ten sick days, 20 vacation days and (depending on the state) ten or more paid holidays every year. Everyone. All over Australia.

    Of course, there is a catch. Part-time and temp workers don't get these benefits. Instead, they get paid an extra 20 percent to 25 percent in cash compensation. As a result, a part-time, entry-level adult fast food worker in Australia makes a minimum of $21.25 an hour. Oh, plus health insurance. That's universal in Australia.

    Of course, exchange rates go up and down over time. But at $21.25 Australian dollars an hour, it doesn't matter what exchange rate you use or how you adjust for cost of living. The simple fact is that an Australian entry-level fast food worker makes more than the average American worker. An absolute majority of Americans would increase their income if they moved to Australia and got fast food jobs.

    All Australian workers are entitled to benefits that are extended only to the richest Americans: parental leave, caregiver's leave, extra vacation for shift workers etc. And when Australians are called for jury duty, their employers must give them the time off - and must make up the difference in pay between the jury duty rate and their normal pay rate. In short, working-class Australians get the same kinds of benefits as investment bankers and top corporate lawyers.

    Then, there's the final benefit that sets Australia (and New Zealand) apart from the rest of the world: long service leave. People don't have to work their entire careers without a break. After their first ten years with a company, they get two months off (with pay). It's another month every five years after that.

    In other words, if you go to work in fast food straight out of high school, you can take a two-month paid honeymoon when you get married in your late twenties - and still have your regular four weeks vacation time to spend with the family.

    more at:

    http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/5601

     



    Have we given you enough info yet?

     

    do you now realize that there is no real comparison between the two markets (U.S. and Aus), and that even here this inane notion that flipping burgers needs to provide a living wage is nonsense?

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]
    And, they have incredibly strick immigration laws.  And a very difficult guest worker hurdle.

     

    Also need to take into account the exchangee rate in order to get an apples to apples comparison, or do you think username99 thinks that australia uses 'merican dollars?

     



    None of which has to do with the effect of absolute population on employment rate.

     

    Try to stay on topic.

    [/QUOTE]


    Actually..in a round about Skeeter way he is actually onto something with the first part of his comment.

    Consider this: In the US there is strong support for strict immigration laws and most people want the goverment to crack down on illegal immigration.

    Care to guess who doesn't support tougher immigration law? Yep..you guessed it - businesses.  Businesses don't support strict immigration enforcement because then they lose their low wage ( often below minimum wage) workers. If we had an immigration policy as strict as Australia's then US businesses by default would have to pay more to the average worker. Don't forget illegal immigrants take the lowest paying jobs..jobs most citizens would not take because they couldn't survive on the pay. Take the illegal immigrants out of the picture and suddenly there are more jobs than there are workers..and business would have to compete. Competition for workers is good for workers..bad for business because such competition means competitive wages.

    As far as his argument over the exchange rate..the difference is minimal..very minimal so it is not a valid point.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hansoribrother. Show Hansoribrother's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to Hansoribrother's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

    Interesting article on Forbes.com - how much would a Big Mac cost if the min wage was $15.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2013/07/30/how-much-would-a-big-mac-cost-if-mcdonalds-workers-were-paid-15-per-hour/

    I am of two minds about this. There are studies that show higher min wage means fewer jobs, but a higher minimum wage would allow some people to afford more consumption too.

    Minimum wage is for the youth and people starting out in work - entry level jobs. A Living Wage? We need to fix other things that might enable people to earn a higher wage rather than be given it for nothing.

    Seems odd that thos pushing for the higher minimum wage don't seem to give a bleep about the staggering cost of college tuition, but that is another topic.

     

     


    Again, people are just ignoring the facts.

     

    It's a fact that more than just 'entry-level job' people work at Walmart et al. For some it's the only job they may qualify for due to circumstance beyond their control. That is born out by the fact that in CA alone 44,000 people qualify for, and receive, gov't assistance. I don't know many entry-level youths who get public assistance while living at home.

    It's also a fact that the wingnuts wish for a race-to-the-bottom in wages and benefits. It's as if they are looking to punish these people, who've they've never met nor know their circumstance of their job choice. In this 'race', they will ignore the fact that they, and all taxpayers, subsidize a form of corporate welfare whereby we pick up the tab for basic necessisities of their workers so that the corporations can pad their bottom line.

    It's also a fact that there are real-world examples of companies in the retail market who not only pay good wages and benefits, but do it while beating their competitors who pay unlivable wages. See : Costco.

     

    Finally, can anyone make the case why people, even in entry level jobs, must be paid unlivable wages?

    It seems to directly contradict the "rising tide lifts all boats" meme the Reaganites are so fond of repeating.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Well it could be a fact that people are trying to make a living off minimum wage jobs but I doubt that is anything that anyone would want to live off. Really, if someone is trying to raise a family, do you think that their problem is that the minimum wage isn't high enough or that there might be some dysfunction somewhere? 

    Is that what you would like to have  your children aspire to? Dad, aren't you proud of me that I make $15/hr at some job that requires no skill or thinking!

    Oh, and living off minimum wage is great if you want to send your kids to college.

    It is not just Repbulicans and their corporate friends that want to depress wages, it is also Democrats who are more than willing to depress wages in return for votes through immigration amnesty. I am sure it would shock you that Democrats also have their corporate friends that appreciate their willingness to keep wages down.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to miscricket's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]
    And, they have incredibly strick immigration laws.  And a very difficult guest worker hurdle.

     

     

    Also need to take into account the exchangee rate in order to get an apples to apples comparison, or do you think username99 thinks that australia uses 'merican dollars?

     

     



    None of which has to do with the effect of absolute population on employment rate.

     

     

    Try to stay on topic.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Actually..in a round about Skeeter way he is actually onto something with the first part of his comment.

     

    Consider this: In the US there is strong support for strict immigration laws and most people want the goverment to crack down on illegal immigration.

    Care to guess who doesn't support tougher immigration law? Yep..you guessed it - businesses.  Businesses don't support strict immigration enforcement because then they lose their low wage ( often below minimum wage) workers. If we had an immigration policy as strict as Australia's then US businesses by default would have to pay more to the average worker. Don't forget illegal immigrants take the lowest paying jobs..jobs most citizens would not take because they couldn't survive on the pay. Take the illegal immigrants out of the picture and suddenly there are more jobs than there are workers..and business would have to compete. Competition for workers is good for workers..bad for business because such competition means competitive wages.

    As far as his argument over the exchange rate..the difference is minimal..very minimal so it is not a valid point.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not so round about.  you are dead on. Can't help it if many of the peole here have no clue as to how businesses run.

    Difference on the exhange is currently minimal.  However, I bet many here think that the australian dollar and the U.S. dollar are the same.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Patron Saint of the job creator party, H.Ford:

     

    What good is industry if it be so unskillfully managed as not to return a living to everyone concerned? No question is more important than that of wages — most of the people of the country live on wages. The scale of their living — the rate of their wages — determines the prosperity of the country.

    If we can distribute high wages, then that money is going to be spent and it will serve to make storekeepers and distributors and manufacturers and workers in other lines more prosperous and their prosperity will be reflected in our sales. Country-wide high wages spell country-wide prosperity, provided, however, the higher wages are paid for higher production.

    The kind of workman who gives the business the best that is in him is the best kind of workman a business can have. ...[I]f a man feels that his day's work is not only supplying his basic need, but is also giving him a margin of comfort and enabling him to give his boys and girls their opportunity and his wife some pleasure in life, then his job looks good to him and he is free to give it of his best. This is a good thing for him and a good thing for the business.

    What do we mean by high wages, anyway? We mean a higher wage than was paid ten months or ten years ago. We do not mean a higher wage than ought to be paid. Our high wages of to-day may be low wages ten years from now. If it is right for the manager of a business to try to make it pay larger dividends, it is quite as right that he should try to make it pay higher wages.

     

    ______________________________________________________________

    For a visualization of what has happened on this front in the past half century, check out a graph of corporate profits relative to GDP versus employee compensation relative to GDP:

    fredgraph-69_1

    While corporate profits relative to GDP are soaring, employee compensation relative to GDP has steadily decline.

    And it's not just a case of rising tides: median U.S. income in 2012 fell to levels not seen since 1995

    ______________________________________________________________

     



    What's behind this?  Well, several factors, but I would suspect that some are the factors are too many people chasing too few jobs.  Technology has changed the landscape dramatically.  One of the largest impacts that no one wants to talk about is the elimination of jobs due to technology.

    Governments response to this has been pathetic.  instead of growinng the economy, they have created featherbeds for the disenfranchised worker, repeatedly, and have discouraged business investment.  Many companies are awash with money, which they wisely do not re-invest in the current political climate.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to bigdog2's comment:

    [QUOTE]Checking history, raising the min wage has never hurt like the "doom and gloom" that was promised.  But, that was raising it, not doubling it.



    I wouldn't advocate for outright doubling it in one fell swoop.

     

    But at the very least, I would like to see it scaled up to its peak real dollar value in US history - something like 10 or 11 in today's dollar. 

    It could go up X amount over Y years...     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    How about doing a salary survey, take the lower 10% of hourly wages, weight average them, and use that to set the rate?

    It reflects both the reality of the market and stifles wage gougers.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Skeeter: The people working minimum wage jobs aren't going to be moving up ladders any time soon.

    They are high school kids trying to make a buck (and won't be moving up any rungs until they complete the education, funding for which you want slashed), college kids trying to pay at least part of their way through school.

    They are ex-cons trying to go straight (who won't be moving up any rungs for quite a while).

    They are single mothers whose husbands abandoned them or were jailed for years in the War on Drugs.

    They are under-educated poor people.

     

     

    And the question you need to ask yourself is not "what moral failings can I heap on those I deem unworthy?"

    The question you need to ask yourself is: Do you want businesses to take advantage of their plight and leave you to pick up the tab? Or do you want businesses to pay a wage that at least lets these people put a roof over their head and food on their plate?

     

     

     



    I just think you see this all wrong.  Why is there such high unemployment amoung the youth?  What is going wrong in our economy, peoples lives that cause non-youth to be in minimum wage jobs?

    No simple answer here, but what it is not is the fault of business (most, some are crooks).  They are simply paying what the market will bear.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    ______________________________________________________________

     

    What's behind this?  Well, several factors, but I would suspect that some are the factors are too many people chasing too few jobs.  Technology has changed the landscape dramatically.  One of the largest impacts that no one wants to talk about is the elimination of jobs due to technology.




    I agree, and I don't think we're very far away from the day where you go into a fast-food place that has no employees preparing the food, serving the food, or ringing you up for the food.  These jobs will eventually be automated.  These places will operate with a technician behind a computer, a couple janitors, and a security guard.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    i do not expect such work to provide a living wage

    I don't want the government to give businesses corporate welfare to make up for their failure to pay a living wage.

     

     


    Our economy was at its very best when minimum wage was at its highest in real dollar terms. That isn't necessarily because of the high wage, but it at least shows higher minimum wages aren't the business death knell you think they are.

    The real question is why you object to single mothers getting help from welfare/food stamps, but have no problem with the reason this happens: minimum wage isn't a living wage.

     

     

     



    Again, In my opinion, you have this all wrong.  It is government, not businesses, that are the problem in people's financial lives.  Nor is it the responsibility for business to guarrantee living wages, particularly for part time, entry level work, or for the government to enforce such a wrong-headed idea.

     

    Look, the value of work is directly related to the skill required for the work.  your supposition, that the pay of the job is directly related to the need of the worker, and that only, is moral and economic folly.  It is not a bad sentiment, however.  We should care for people, and our government should foster an environment where people are better off.  How does government do that?  by demanding a living wage for flipping burgers, or by stopping corporate welfare, and creating incentives for growth?

    Here's a real-world example of a barrier for growth from government:  Obamacare.  let me break that down further.  

    *  The medical device tax.  This tax disincentivizes companies to invest in jobs and development by at least the rate of the tax.

    *  Penalties for not offering coverage.  You think this was slid out a year because government was not able to implement, or because even Obama began to understand the negative consequences of these faculty lounge room ideas? They just don't work in the real world.

    In each of these cases, businesses are being forced to divert funds to things other than their business. This is in addition to any corporate taxes, property taxes, etc. a company may pay.

    This means less growth, fewer jobs created.

    Obama want's a jobs program?  Repeal Obamacare, and make a speech about: as altrustic the idea was, it was wrong to force it on the nation.  He would not only stimulate the economy, he would win the respect of many.

    One thing the left was upset about is how they could never get Bush to admit he was wrong on the Iraq war.  Obama is squandering the same type of opportunity, to admit he was wrong, and grow in strength and stature.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]i do not expect such work to provide a living wage



    I don't want the government to give businesses corporate welfare to make up for their failure to pay a living wage.

     


    Our economy was at its very best when minimum wage was at its highest in real dollar terms. That isn't necessarily because of the high wage, but it at least shows higher minimum wages aren't the business death knell you think they are.

    The real question is why you object to single mothers getting help from welfare/food stamps, but have no problem with the reason this happens: minimum wage isn't a living wage.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Last point:  I do't object to single mothers getting food stamps at all.  I have a problem with your analysis, that it is minimum wage that is the problem.  The problem is being a single mother.  For some, this is an unfortunate reality.  For way too many, this is simply a bad choice.  

    Don't have kids out of wedlock, and if you are single with children, do what you can to get married.

    Sorry for the tough love, but you can't pin this one on low wages.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedwardnicky. Show jedwardnicky's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to bigdog2's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to bigdog2's comment:

    Lying Loser! Aren`t you sick of getting spanked?



    How old are you?

     


    Anyway, goodbye. You are just trying to provoke me. Not interested in your childish games.

     




     

    Tried to have a discussion with you (have tried many times).  Your first post is always a demeaning, disgusting, know-it-all-snipe.

    Ask anyone here.  Better yet, go look (honestly) at your own posts and any of the responses from any of the posters, in any of the ohhhh......I don`t know........20-25 threads you`re currently in.  

    You`re a joke man.  Give it up.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    We've secretly replaced the normal crazy Bidgdog2 comments served on BDC with Folgers Decaffeinated Coffee Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices the difference.......

    "Mmm.... it's bitter.....really bitter."

    "I guess you could call it coffee. If you've never had coffee"

    "I know it's decaffeinated, but it'll keep me awake at night thinking 'where does he get off?'"

    "This is why I drink tea."

    "Could I get a glass of water and something to spit into?

    "Check please."

     

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]Look, the value of work is directly related to the skill required for the work.  your supposition, that the pay of the job is directly related to the need of the worker, and that only, is moral and economic folly.

     


    The first part of this is not true, the second part is a misstatement.

    Employers pay the bare minimum they can get away with. As we saw a century ago - when we didn't have any labor-protection laws -  this means a starvation wage, 12-16 hour shifts, children included. Etc. That's your glorious true "free market" in action.

    The employers made a killing. They were paying well below the actual value of the work.

     

    Second, I am only arguing for a living wage that keeps employees off government assistance, and unlike you I do not approve of doing away with the safety net.

    I am not saying that it should relate 'directly to the need of the worker'. Why do you find it necessary to twist my words?

     

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]Obamacare.[/QUOTE]

     

    Now that really is way off topic and does not link up with the minimum wage issue.

    [/QUOTE]

    Wrong, and wrong.

    i guess you bringing up corporate welfare is right on target?

    open your eyes, the problem is government, not the free market or what is left of it.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    [QUOTE]Look, the value of work is directly related to the skill required for the work.  your supposition, that the pay of the job is directly related to the need of the worker, and that only, is moral and economic folly.

     


    The first part of this is not true, the second part is a misstatement.

    Employers pay the bare minimum they can get away with. As we saw a century ago - when we didn't have any labor-protection laws -  this means a starvation wage, 12-16 hour shifts, children included. Etc. That's your glorious true "free market" in action.

    The employers made a killing. They were paying well below the actual value of the work.

     

    Second, I am only arguing for a living wage that keeps employees off government assistance, and unlike you I do not approve of doing away with the safety net.

    I am not saying that it should relate 'directly to the need of the worker'. Why do you find it necessary to twist my words?

     

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]Obamacare.[/QUOTE]

     

    Now that really is way off topic and does not link up with the minimum wage issue.

    [/QUOTE]

    Actually, right on topic. It is a jobs killer. I demonstrated it.

    look, you think joverment can simply demand a living wage, whatever that isis the market for jobs and your skill level, determine what you get paid. That's just the economics of demo if government tries to determine a living wage, as wrong as that is, it will simply distort the market, with the impact felt elsewhere.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    Again: it doesn't need to be doubled and it doesn't need to happen in one fell swoop.

    Again: The doom and gloom scenarios are proven false by American history - Australia doesn't even need to be a part of this.

    Again: The question you need to ask yourself is whether you like picking up these supposed "job creators" tab. Should your tax dollars subsidize McDonald's 99 cent menu?

     

     

    Most of these people are working more than one job. McDonald's knows it. And as you can see from their Candyland planning booklet, even someone working two minimum wage jobs as they expect can't make ends meet.

     

     

     

     

     

    [QUOTE]we would see small business hurt bad, younger workers unemployment rate sky-rocket (worse than it already is), and massive job loss.

     

     No, we wouldn't. The Economy was stellar when minimum wage was at its highest real dollar value.

    You can't just make things up and expect it to win an argument.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The old two factor argument.  Strong economies support higher wages and higher prices, weak economies don't we are in an incredibly weak economy.

    so, remove the impediments to job growth, like Obamacare and other impediments, and wages will rise.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Australia's Living Wage

    In response to bigdog2's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to bigdog2's comment:

    Lying Loser! Aren`t you sick of getting spanked?



    How old are you?

     


    Anyway, goodbye. You are just trying to provoke me. Not interested in your childish games.

     




     

    Tried to have a discussion with you (have tried many times).  Your first post is always a demeaning, disgusting, know-it-all-snipe.

    Ask anyone here.  Better yet, go look (honestly) at your own posts and any of the responses from any of the posters, in any of the ohhhh......I don`t know........20-25 threads you`re currently in.  

    You`re a joke man.  Give it up.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You don't understsand...there are different rules for WDYWN. It's ok when HE snipes. It's ok when HE'S demeaning. He knows all and we should all just be grateful for being in his presence. And remember...never and I mean never ever question him. 

     

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