Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

     

    Obama fails to inspire with his non-bipartisan speech.  The president ran down a list of his niche coalition members; those in need, the GLBT community, immigrants, gender pay equality, women’s health and continued his support for their needs and the solution was bigger government.  He stressed a collective effort as opposed to self reliance, individualism and entrepreneurism.  Collectivism a euphemism for European Democratic Socialism.  I’m less hopeful at the start of this term then I was at the start of his first term because now his intentions are clear about transforming this country into something I won’t recognize.   He’s trying to co-opt and redefine the American Dream into a redistribution of wealth through a fairness in taxation strategy in order to grow government into the provider as opposed to providing for yourself.

     

    If he’d just focus on the economy prosperity would once again allow the traditional American Dream to inspire our citizens to excel.

     

    From today’s Globe:

     

    http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2012/president/candidates/obama/2013/01/22/while-calling-for-unity-obama-lays-out-liberal-vision/6DIzISLa6WhdI2kJTJP8uK/story.html

      

    “Now, more than ever, we must do these things together, as one nation, and one people,” Obama told an estimated one million revelers gathered on the National Mall on a sunny, brisk morning to hear him repeat the oath of office.

    The dichotomy of Obama’s speech, with its calls for cooperation between the parties and its tilt toward traditional Democratic priorities, marked the entry point for his second term. The president repeatedly made clear he will fight for a strong role for the federal government in the face of opposition from Republicans who want to reduce its role in addressing the nation’s ills.

    Speaking on the federal holiday commemorating civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr., the nation’s first black president returned several times to the theme that the country from its founding has embarked on “a never-ending journey” to advance the rights and opportunities of the less fortunate and disenfranchised.

     

    Obama Inauguration speech 2013

    President Barack Obama delivered his second inaugural address Monday to a packed crowd on the National Mall. Here’s POLITICO’s list of the 10 most memorable quotes from the 18-minute speech:

      

    1. “We recall that what binds this nation together is not the colors of our skin or the tenets of our faith or the origins of our names. What makes us exceptional — what makes us American — is our allegiance to an idea, articulated in a declaration made more than two centuries ago.”

     

     2. “For now decisions are upon us, and we cannot afford delay. We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate.”

     

    3. “We do not believe that in this country, freedom is reserved for the lucky, or happiness for the few.”

     

    4. “My fellow Americans, we are made for this moment, and we will seize it — so long as we seize it together.”

     

    5. “But we have always understood that when times change, so must we; that fidelity to our founding principles requires new responses to new challenges; that preserving our individual freedoms ultimately requires collective action.”

     

    6. We will support democracy from Asia to Africa; from the Americas to the Middle East, because our interests and our conscience compel us to act on behalf of those who long for freedom.

     

    7. “But while the means will change, our purpose endures: a nation that rewards the effort and determination of every single American. That is what this moment requires. That is what will give real meaning to our creed.”

     

    8. “Our journey is not complete until our gay brothers and sisters are treated like anyone else under the law — for if we are truly created equal, then surely the love we commit to one another must be equal as well.”

     

    9. “We will respond to the threat of climate change, knowing that the failure to do so would betray our children and future generations.”

     

    10. “You and I, as citizens, have the obligation to shape the debates of our time — not only with the votes we cast, but with the voices we lift in defense of our most ancient values and enduring ideals.”


    I felt most concerned about the Obama’s collective action “central government” but heartened by the last one that speaks to me as the value of individual responsibility and self reliance.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    Inauguration speech:  "We cannot .....treat name-calling as reasoned debate.”

    Are you listening, 12-angry-men?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    You need a combination of these two principles.  The "versus" part is simply wrong.  We are individuals that are part of a collective.  Finding the right balance is the issue.  They are not two ideas against each other.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    those in need, the GLBT community, immigrants, gender pay equality, women’s health and continued his support for their needs and the solution was bigger government



    Yeah. F**k those people. Why don't we just kill them?

     

     

    Also, nice red baiting.



    Really, the president goes out of his way to push the agenda of his supporters and fails to inspire me because he's more interested in his progressive agenda and your answer is just kill them????????

    How about trying to unite versus a continued agenda of only being interested is his special interests.  I'm not against them but they're not my issues.  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    The social contract is broken and republicans won't admit it.  America has been betrayed by its financial elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when its pursuers are willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Republicans want personal freedom from government and freedom from responsibility to others. Democrats want freedom for all to thrive by society providing opportunity and freedom from avoidable risk and uncertainty.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    those in need, the GLBT community, immigrants, gender pay equality, women’s health and continued his support for their needs and the solution was bigger government



    Yeah. F**k those people. Why don't we just kill them?

     

     

    Also, nice red baiting.

     



    Really, the president goes out of his way to push the agenda of his supporters and fails to inspire me because he's more interested in his progressive agenda and your answer is just kill them????????

     

    How about trying to unite versus a continued agenda of only being interested is his special interests.  I'm not against them but they're not my issues.  



    He should push the things that he ran on.  Were you expecting him to abandon the people who got him elected?  That's a pretty unrealistic expectation.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    Commentary magazine:

    "In his inaugural speech he did what he seemingly cannot keep himself from doing: portraying himself and his followers as Children of Light and portraying his opponents as Children of Darkness.

    You are either with Obama–or you are with the forces of cruelty and bigotry. In Obama’s world, there is no middle ground. He is the Voice of Reason; those who oppose him are the voice of the mob. They are the ones who (to cite just one passage from his speech) mistake absolutism for principle, substitute spectacle for politics, and treat name-calling as reasoned debate.

    In that sense, Obama is the perfect president for our current political culture. And for all of his self-perceived similarities with Abraham Lincoln, he is the antithesis of Lincoln when it comes to grace, a charitable spirit and a commitment to genuine reconciliation. Mr. Obama is, at his core, a divider. He seems to relish it, even when the moment calls for a temporary truce in our political wars.

    Which leads me to my second point.

    Mr. Obama’s speech was not a call to unity; it was a summons to his liberal base to fight–on global warming, for gay rights, for gun control, for renewable energy, and for a diminished American role in world affairs. And the president’s speech also signaled that he will oppose, with passion and demagoguery, anyone who attempts to reform our entitlement programs. He is fully at peace with running trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. He not only won’t lift a finger to avoid America’s coming debt crisis; he will lacerate those who do."

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    Really, the president goes out of his way to push the agenda of his supporters and fails to inspire me because he's more interested in his progressive agenda and your answer is just kill them????????

     

    How about trying to unite versus a continued agenda of only being interested is his special interests.  I'm not against them but they're not my issues.




     

    Hey you're the one who equated merely talking about wanting to do things for: Immigrants, homosexuals, gender pay equality, women's health, and the poor...

    ...with Soviet Collectivism rather than Individualism.

     

    Don't insult us by pretending that actually you wanted a "united agenda". It's one of the most obnoxious things about conservatives. They say a series of things that boils down to "f**k all these groups who aren't middle class whie males," and when called on it, they say "oh no, I didn't mean that. I think something should be done for those people. I just won't say what it is, ever, and I will oppose everything your side offers to do for them. (As if merely saying I support doing things means ANYTHING in a vacuum).

    And how exactly do you want him to include "your issues"? YOUR issues are against most of what he said. You've made that perfectly clear with your other comments here.



    Your united approach is to ignore all the groups Obama talked about helping. That isn't "United". That's far right.



    I think you're boardering on bumping into Godwin's Law.  I talked about European Democratic Socialism, not Soviet collectivism,.......... so nice try at blue baiting.

    No I don't want to ignore the other groups; let's do away with DOMA, and work on immigration reform, but let's address the economy, jobs deficit first.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    Double entry...........

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    those in need, the GLBT community, immigrants, gender pay equality, women’s health and continued his support for their needs and the solution was bigger government



    Yeah. F**k those people. Why don't we just kill them?

     

     

    Also, nice red baiting.

     



    Really, the president goes out of his way to push the agenda of his supporters and fails to inspire me because he's more interested in his progressive agenda and your answer is just kill them????????

     

    How about trying to unite versus a continued agenda of only being interested is his special interests.  I'm not against them but they're not my issues.  

     



    He should push the things that he ran on.  Were you expecting him to abandon the people who got him elected?  That's a pretty unrealistic expectation.

     

     



    This radical summed it up very well, and if she's correct in her final statement we're good.

     

     

    Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) congratulated Obama on his second term, and she urged both parties to seek bipartisan solutions to the many problems facing the country.

     

    Yet as for Obama's speech, Collins — one of the few remaining GOP moderates in the Senate wasn't a fan. "The speech was more of a campaign-style speech than I expected," Collins said. "But he delivered it very well, and it certainly resonated with the people who came." 

     "Maybe it was just the final stage of the campaign, and now we can all get to governing," Collins added.



    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/republicans-fighting-words-from-obama-in-inaugural-speech-86514.html#ixzz2IiFpkqGY

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    The social contract is broken and republicans won't admit it.  America has been betrayed by its financial elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when its pursuers are willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Republicans want personal freedom from government and freedom from responsibility to others. Democrats want freedom for all to thrive by society providing opportunity and freedom from avoidable risk and uncertainty.



    The social contract is broken and politicians know it. America has been betrayed by its govt elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when their govt is willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Politicians want the populas to have personal dependence on government and for them to have freedom from responsibility to others. The people want freedom for all to thrive through  economic opportunity and freedom from govt risk and uncertainty.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    They are not two ideas against each other.

    For modern conservatievs, it would seem the opposite is true in just about every context.

    Oppose everything Obama does to break him. Not do whatever we can to help America succeed. Just plain OPPOSE OBAMA.




    You only know what you think you know from a partisan view point.

    The truth is if, Obama would follow in his predecessors leadership style that actually worked; and move to the center to find common ground the right would be pushed to meet him but, to continually push a far left agenda and refuse (with help from his party leaders) to even debate a center policy approach is reprehensible and will continue to be condusive to a country divided!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to DirtyWaterLover's comment:


    He should push the things that he ran on.  Were you expecting him to abandon the people who got him elected?  That's a pretty unrealistic expectation.




    He ran on legislative unity and a balanced (spending cuts and tax increases) economic policy.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:

    No I don't want to ignore the other groups; let's do away with DOMA, and work on immigration reform, but let's address the economy, jobs deficit first



    That's just an excuse for doing nothing until a Republican becomes President and proceeds to do nothing for them.

     


    There is absolutely no logical reason why those things can be tackled at the same time.

     

    There is, however, an illogical reason: A Republican House that intends to block everything Obama does to 'break' him, that doesn't trust him in the least on economic issues because they share your "he's a collectivist" (your word, not mine) opinion, that has no desire to help any of the groups he identified, and that is more than happy to hold his promises hostage for political points rather than working for the American people.

     

     

     

    Mitch McConnell stated that he hopes that he can work with the President and Dems with a new beginning.  Boehner is helping the president by kicking the can down the road for him.  That doesn't sound obstructionist; unless taking his excuses away makes them obstructionists.  Do you want to see action/results or just complain about the GOP blocking all of Obama's wicked good ideas?

    The real problem is that Obama has ADHD or worse he just lies.  

    Go back in time in 2008 he ran on the economy not ACA, and what did he burn is political capital on ACA

    In each subsequent year he promised at the state of the union that the economy was job #1

    in 2010 when his policies caused the Dems to get shellacked he said he listened and in the follow-on state of the union he said the economy was job one.

    In the 2012 cycle when the economy was the number 1 issue; he ran to deal with the deficit and the economy, besides helping the GOP look stupider then they were.

     

    I'd like to see him address the defict and then work on his legacy he'll be around 3 more years before he's a real lame duck.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:


    There is absolutely no logical reason why those things can be tackled at the same time. 




    Have you even paid attention to our govt's actions the last few years?

    No budget passed in the senate and no work on job creation except govt jobs!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    If the GOP was at all interested in anything like political unity, they would have demonstrated thus, and they would not have lost the electorate the way they did in November.

    Any attempt at reconciliation is excoriated in the right-wing press and radio, and accusations of "RINO!" fly like snowflakes, e.g. Chris Christie.  The kerfuffle over relief aid for Hurricane Sandy was just the latest example of the repubs' tin ear and conflicted heart.

    The speech yesterday was not divisive, though some on the right would doubtless see it that way...because why change now?? That's been their theme all along.  Its rhetoric was ultimately respectful of its audience and dedicated to empowering the people to take responsibility for their own destiny.  One commentator has called him the "liberal reagan", and that could end up being more true than anyone realizes.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    He ran on legislative unity


    Too bad Republican marching orders are to oppose everything he does to break him.

    [QUOTE]

    Do you ever get tired of blaming republicans when they only control half of one branch and that for only 2 of the last 4 years.

    You are as unaccountible as those you wish to defend when they refuse ANY responsibility.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    The social contract is broken and republicans won't admit it.  America has been betrayed by its financial elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when its pursuers are willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Republicans want personal freedom from government and freedom from responsibility to others. Democrats want freedom for all to thrive by society providing opportunity and freedom from avoidable risk and uncertainty.




     

    Well, partly true.  I would say it this way:

    Republicans want freedom from government, and provide most of the charity in this country to help those not as fortunate.

    Democrats want big government and submission of the individual to  the collective, and as studies have proven, would  risk being shot rather than part with one dime of their own to help those less fortunate.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to tvoter's comment:

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

    The social contract is broken and republicans won't admit it.  America has been betrayed by its financial elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when its pursuers are willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Republicans want personal freedom from government and freedom from responsibility to others. Democrats want freedom for all to thrive by society providing opportunity and freedom from avoidable risk and uncertainty.

     



     

    The social contract is broken and politicians know it. America has been betrayed by its govt elite over these past thirty years. Few Americans resent wealth when its tide raises all boats; but they resent it profoundly when their govt is willing to drown everyone else in order to acquire it.

    Politicians want the populas to have personal dependence on government and for them to have freedom from responsibility to others. The people want freedom for all to thrive through  economic opportunity and freedom from govt risk and uncertainty.



    Well said. We have become two americas:  Those who derive income from government, i.e. gov't employees, the less fortunate, those on social security and medicare/medicaid,

     

    -AND-

    Those who pay for it, i.e. the private sector.

    That's the two americas, and the side draining the blood out of the country are winning.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    If the GOP was at all interested in anything like political unity, they would have demonstrated thus, and they would not have lost the electorate the way they did in November.

    Any attempt at reconciliation is excoriated in the right-wing press and radio, and accusations of "RINO!" fly like snowflakes, e.g. Chris Christie.  The kerfuffle over relief aid for Hurricane Sandy was just the latest example of the repubs' tin ear and conflicted heart.

    The speech yesterday was not divisive, though some on the right would doubtless see it that way...because why change now?? That's been their theme all along.  Its rhetoric was ultimately respectful of its audience and dedicated to empowering the people to take responsibility for their own destiny.  One commentator has called him the "liberal reagan", and that could end up being more true than anyone realizes.

     



    The republicans have done so, and Obama rejected it.  Don't you remember the latest budget fiasco?  Bohner brought to Obama the very same plan Obama campaigned on, and Obama rejected it.

    Obama is a hyperpartisan ideolouge, not a hapless victim of partisanship.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to skeeter20's comment:



    Well said. We have become two americas:  Those who derive income from government, i.e. gov't employees, the less fortunate, those on social security and medicare/medicaid,

     

     

    -AND-

    Those who pay for it, i.e. the private sector.

    That's the two americas, and the side draining the blood out of the country are winning.



    File under:  Keep your government hands off my medicare and social security.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Collectivism vs.Self Reliance

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    That's the two americas, and the side draining the blood out of the country are winning.



    Of course you would think so.  The numbers don't bear that out. 

    And it doesn't explain the drastic change in wealth inequality over the past 25 years.  The "private sector" did not all of a sudden start working 50x and 100x more to warrant such a discrepancy.

    If govt has failed, it's failed in allowing the top to acquire so much in such a relatively short amount of time at the expense of the middle-class.  The wealthy have essentially cornered the market on being wealthy.

     

     

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