CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to kelldog1's comment:
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           There are days.... when this world we live in really sucks!!

     

    [/QUOTE]


    It is not the world. It is us and our indifference in allowing a lobbying group for gun manufacturers whose sole purpose is to increase gun sales to dictate our policy. We have more gun deaths by the thousands than any other country in the modern world.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    How is this a liberal versus conservative argument? How about - We are all to blame by our indifference. How about the time to have this conversation was before we allowed one of the worst days in our US modern history to happen. The rest of the world shakes their heads at our culture of violance and we just allow ourselves to be led like sheep by lobbyists and special interests.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How is this a liberal versus conservative argument? How about - We are all to blame by our indifference. How about the time to have this conversation was before we allowed one of the worst days in our US modern history to happen. The rest of the world shakes their heads at our culture of violance and we just allow ourselves to be led like sheep by lobbyists and special interests.

    [/QUOTE]

    What does lobbyists and special interests have to do with somone killing innocent men, women and children? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Do you need me to explain it to you? They created the culture with the help of congressional weakness. They created a culture where people think the only way to counter gun violence is by adding more guns to the equation. Look at the shooters mother. She was a doomsday prepper with an arsenal and a mentally ill son. Recipe for disaster. She bought into the NRA end of society garbage.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
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    [/QUOTE]

    Comments are violent?  How about policies that condone violence.  Isn't that much more dangerous?  We lost 10,000 people to guns last year.  Britain lost 8. And as if conservatives don't engage in violent imagery...  try posting a liberal idea on a Tea Party blog.  Watch as you are insulted and even threatened with harm.  You get off easy here.

    [/QUOTE]

    How many lost to drugs  that other liberal/legalization totem.You seriously don't see the connection between the hate and anger spilling out from the liberals in their posts and their actions?  Do you hold to the same standard for angry conservatives?

    BTW:  TEA party violence never materialized.  Occupy violence everywhere.  Face it, the left has a violent agenda, infact, DEPENDS on it, as their ideas do not sell to sane people, (i.e. gotta get a little bloody sometimes), this truth is simply not accepted by people like you.

    [/QUOTE]

    There is much, much more hate coming from the conservative ranks.  "Gays are a cancer."  That's hateful.  "Hitler is a liberal (so liberals are Nazis)."  That's hateful.  "The word "love" appears no where in the Koran." That's hateful.  And that is just you. Many conservatives routinely question the patriotism of liberals and yes, they use threatening language in this regard.  They even question if the president is an American and whether he is part of that "suspect faith" of Islam.  That's hateful.  Maintaining assault weapons in our society is an actual conservative policy that produces horrific violence.  That's real violence for no good purpose. That's the truth.  You just can't handle it.

    [/QUOTE]

    That's not hate, that's opinion, in some cases fact.  You are stretching.

    You take a tragedy like this and go on a full out hate campaign, smearing every conservative, every gun owner.  That's hate.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How is this a liberal versus conservative argument? How about - We are all to blame by our indifference. How about the time to have this conversation was before we allowed one of the worst days in our US modern history to happen. The rest of the world shakes their heads at our culture of violance and we just allow ourselves to be led like sheep by lobbyists and special interests.

    [/QUOTE]

    What does lobbyists and special interests have to do with somone killing innocent men, women and children? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Do you need me to explain it to you? They created the culture with the help of congressional weakness. They created a culture where people think the only way to counter gun violence is by adding more guns to the equation. Look at the shooters mother. She was a doomsday prepper with an arsenal and a mentally ill son. Recipe for disaster. She bought into the NRA end of society garbage.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not all gun owners belong to the NRA or associate themselves with the NRA. Before you start shooting of your mouth about gun owners and what they believe, go spend a day at a local shooting range. I assure you, it will be an eye opening experience. All walks of life are members. Old, young, men, woman, even old grannies. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Where did I say that all gun owners belong to the NRA? I said the NRA is part of the problem. I don't know a single responsible gun owner who belongs to the NRA or agrees with its militant stance.

    BTW, I belong to a local gun club. I know the culture. It has nothing to do with the NRA culture of fear.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    You take a tragedy like this and go on a full out hate campaign, smearing every conservative, every gun owner.  That's hate.

     


    Well said.

    [/QUOTE]


    Not well said. It is justifiable anger on behalf of the victims. When do you want to talk? When Auroroa happened the NRA subject said Now is not the time. When OK happened they said Now is not the time. They NRA lobby has historically counted on people to wait, let their anger subside, get distracted and fall back into line. Ain't gonna happen this time. If your not angry then you not clued in.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How is this a liberal versus conservative argument? How about - We are all to blame by our indifference. How about the time to have this conversation was before we allowed one of the worst days in our US modern history to happen. The rest of the world shakes their heads at our culture of violance and we just allow ourselves to be led like sheep by lobbyists and special interests.

    [/QUOTE]

    What does lobbyists and special interests have to do with somone killing innocent men, women and children? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Do you need me to explain it to you? They created the culture with the help of congressional weakness. They created a culture where people think the only way to counter gun violence is by adding more guns to the equation. Look at the shooters mother. She was a doomsday prepper with an arsenal and a mentally ill son. Recipe for disaster. She bought into the NRA end of society garbage.

    [/QUOTE]

    I guess you  think making schools a "gun free zone" was effective.

    Liberals will never understand that there is evil in the world, that even in the best of times we live in a dangerous world.  Government, police, cannot protect everyone everywhere everytime.  A well armed citizenry is not a perfect solution, but better than disarming the citizenry, creating gun-free zones, whihc generally only create undefended weak zones that evil exploits.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WhichOnesPink2's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FaolanofEssex's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    How is this a liberal versus conservative argument? How about - We are all to blame by our indifference. How about the time to have this conversation was before we allowed one of the worst days in our US modern history to happen. The rest of the world shakes their heads at our culture of violance and we just allow ourselves to be led like sheep by lobbyists and special interests.

    [/QUOTE]

    What does lobbyists and special interests have to do with somone killing innocent men, women and children? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Do you need me to explain it to you? They created the culture with the help of congressional weakness. They created a culture where people think the only way to counter gun violence is by adding more guns to the equation. Look at the shooters mother. She was a doomsday prepper with an arsenal and a mentally ill son. Recipe for disaster. She bought into the NRA end of society garbage.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not all gun owners belong to the NRA or associate themselves with the NRA. Before you start shooting of your mouth about gun owners and what they believe, go spend a day at a local shooting range. I assure you, it will be an eye opening experience. All walks of life are members. Old, young, men, woman, even old grannies. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Where did I say that all gun owners belong to the NRA? I said the NRA is part of the problem. I don't know a single responsible gun owner who belongs to the NRA or agrees with its militant stance.

    BTW, I belong to a local gun club. I know the culture. It has nothing to do with the NRA culture of fear.

    [/QUOTE]

    So where do you get off saying the dead mom bought into the NRA spin? Do you have inside information? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Did you miss the term Doomsday prepper?  NRA's number one spin.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to TFefio's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I disagree. I see way more hateful speech and actions in the forms of demostration coming from the left than the right. That's just a fact that you can't handle obviously. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Conveniently, you and skeeter see what you choose to see.  Neither the facts nor pathology bear out your claim.

    For example, violent religious fundamentalism is heavily weighed to the right.  Jihadism is a reaction to the liberalization of rigidly doctrined societies.

    For the most part, liberals are not the ones stockpiling weapons for fear of the govt taking them away.

    Et tu, "don't tread on me"...?

     

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    dupe.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    dupe.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    I attended a business mtg in southern CT on Friday and didn't hear about the horrific events in Newtown until I was travelling home as a watched a number of Boston News vans head south on I-84.  Iistened to NPR and WBZ as information was slowly coming out to the magnitude of the evilness of the event.  It was truly a depressing 3 hr ride home and I was wondering how the gun debate was going to enter into this.  Well as the weekend rolled on we've learned a lot and there is still a lot we don't know.

    The shooter followed a script of arming up, high volume magazines, kevlar vest and an assault rifle.

    He chose a soft target with no defenses; a school similar to a theatre or meet and greet with a politician

    The shooter had some type of autism which seems to follow a trend.

    Child was from a broken home.

    CT has strong gun laws so how did this happen, well as we found out he stole them from his mother an avid collector after he killed her.

    The guns laws worked as the shooter was unable to obtain his own gun last week from Dick's sporting goods.

    So how do we fix this?  This appears to be more of a mental health issue and some how the shooters dangerous decline in rational functioning wasn't noticed.  The loaner, anti-social behavior and purported heavy involvement in fast paced violent video games seems to be a constant thread for many of these killing sprees.  The damaged but highly functioning indivdual appears to begin a slow decline of more anti-social behavior that at some point quickly devolves to completely illogical violent behavior.  These are smart individuals who appear to cover up the warning signs very well, as they go over the edge.  A few days had passed from the Tuesday attempt to buy a gun and his killing his mother to get her guns.  During this time no one noticed enough to intervene.  

    So how do we fix this?  Outlaw guns; I don't think so, but it does fall right in line with the liberal anti-gun crowd.  If its not assualt rifles like the Bushmaster or AR-47 then it would be hand guns.  If not 15 to 30 round magazines like the Giffords shooter had then it could be the 10 round clips that some legislators want to make the new limit.

    Do we outlaw violent video games; sure we limit them to minors but this kid was an "adult".  Are violent video games bad for someone in terms of desensitizing them from violence and leading up to them performing atrocities,...sure seems logical; but how do we limit it.

    This is a mental health issue; the blame goes to failing to manage it and diagnose it at a much earlier stage.  I think the these kids really need help and they need separate help from kids with traditional learning disabilities.  At one time we institutioalized the violent anti-social kids at an early age.  Some belonged there and that is why these horrific events weren't happening with the frequency that they have been over the last 20 - 30 years.  Unfortunately advocates wanted the institutionlizing to be dramaticallycurtailed and pushed to save all the kids; well all of them can't be saved.

    To what side of the spectrum do we error on, institutionalizing too many or not enough kids.  That is the real problem here and I don't have an answer.  But some where we collectively fail to see the problem and that kid the later life shooter becomes lost until they have a mental break.

     

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I attended a business mtg in southern CT on Friday and didn't hear about the horrific events in Newtown until I was travelling home as a watched a number of Boston News vans head south on I-84.  Iistened to NPR and WBZ as information was slowly coming out to the magnitude of the evilness of the event.  It was truly a depressing 3 hr ride home and I was wondering how the gun debate was going to enter into this.  Well as the weekend rolled on we've learned a lot and there is still a lot we don't know.

    The shooter followed a script of arming up, high volume magazines, kevlar vest and an assault rifle.

    He chose a soft target with no defenses; a school similar to a theatre or meet and greet with a politician

    The shooter had some type of autism which seems to follow a trend.

    Child was from a broken home.

    CT has strong gun laws so how did this happen, well as we found out he stole them from his mother an avid collector after he killed her.

    The guns laws worked as the shooter was unable to obtain his own gun last week from Dick's sporting goods.

    So how do we fix this?  This appears to be more of a mental health issue and some how the shooters dangerous decline in rational functioning wasn't noticed.  The loaner, anti-social behavior and purported heavy involvement in fast paced violent video games seems to be a constant thread for many of these killing sprees.  The damaged but highly functioning indivdual appears to begin a slow decline of more anti-social behavior that at some point quickly devolves to completely illogical violent behavior.  These are smart individuals who appear to cover up the warning signs very well, as they go over the edge.  A few days had passed from the Tuesday attempt to buy a gun and his killing his mother to get her guns.  During this time no one noticed enough to intervene.  

    So how do we fix this?  Outlaw guns; I don't think so, but it does fall right in line with the liberal anti-gun crowd.  If its not assualt rifles like the Bushmaster or AR-47 then it would be hand guns.  If not 15 to 30 round magazines like the Giffords shooter had then it could be the 10 round clips that some legislators want to make the new limit.

    Do we outlaw violent video games; sure we limit them to minors but this kid was an "adult".  Are violent video games bad for someone in terms of desensitizing them from violence and leading up to them performing atrocities,...sure seems logical; but how do we limit it.

    This is a mental health issue; the blame goes to failing to manage it and diagnose it at a much earlier stage.  I think the these kids really need help and they need separate help from kids with traditional learning disabilities.  At one time we institutioalized the violent anti-social kids at an early age.  Some belonged there and that is why these horrific events weren't happening with the frequency that they have been over the last 20 - 30 years.  Unfortunately advocates wanted the institutionlizing to be dramaticallycurtailed and pushed to save all the kids; well all of them can't be saved.

    To what side of the spectrum do we error on, institutionalizing too many or not enough kids.  That is the real problem here and I don't have an answer.  But some where we collectively fail to see the problem and that kid the later life shooter becomes lost until they have a mental break.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Good post.

    I think the mental health implications are worth their own thread.  A thorough, qualified diagnosis would have exposed the fact that guns were in the home and/or part of of the shooter's home environment.

    This is when mental health identification and treatment protocols become a public health issue.  Institutionalization is only a part of the equation.

    Ergo, the old saw of "it's the quiet ones you've got to watch" is a poor substitute for clinical determination.

     

     

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to msobstinate99's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I honestly cannot imagine how someone can say "it's not the gun, it's the person" and then talk about video games as if they were the cause.

    I've played "violent" video games since I was a kid. I still, from time to time, log in to a game like Quake 4 and hop around, shooting people with rockets.

    I have never had the slightest desire to do that in real life.

    It's the mental illness or evil in the person, not a video game, that causes this.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree it is crazy to blame vidoe games. If you do that, where does it end? Movies, music, MSM? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Agreed.

    I forget...which violent video games were David Berkowitz and Charles Whitman playing? 

    (natch... serial killer vs. mass murderer = pedantry)

     

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I honestly cannot imagine how someone can say "it's not the gun, it's the person" and then talk about video games as if they were the cause.

    I've played "violent" video games since I was a kid. I still, from time to time, log in to a game like Quake 4 and hop around, shooting people with rockets.

    I have never had the slightest desire to do that in real life.

    It's the mental illness or evil in the person, not a video game, that causes this.

     

     

     

     

    Outlawing guns is not a subject for pragmatic discussion, not unless the Supreme Court does a 180 on the issue. As to whether in the abstract it would work, all you have to do is look at the chart from the other thread:

     

    I don't know how anyone in their right mind can look at figures like that and then argue that the U.S. is so vastly different from the rest of the world that tight arms control wouldn't  work. Unfortunately, it's not really worth talking about because the Supreme Court would never go along with the sort of restrictions in those countries.

     

     

     

    What the Supreme Court would probably tolerate is a ban on assault weapons, a ban on high capacity magazines, and a ban on military-grade body armor.

    At last less people will die during these events.

     

    And maybe, just maybe, some will simply not happen. This, because the shooters usually intend to commit suicide. They do not want to spend their life in jail. So, they armor up and arm themselves to the teeth to ensure that nobody with a handgun incapacitates them until they are caught by the police.

     

     

     One other thing worth considering is whether we should have less privacy in the mental health arenas.

    It is a tricky notion. If your psychiatrist might pass on troubling things you say to authorities, you might not seek the treatment in the first place. But if the psychiatrist (or, sayl, college professor who notices you behaving oddly) cannot say anything to anyone or do anything, then, there are missed chances to prevent this sort of thing.

    There's something off with the nation's psyche. (And no, it's not a rise of atheism or "the gays", as Huckabee would have it).

    It is worth keeping in mind that while this type of violence is increasing, other types of senseless violence have petered out. Lynchings. Death-by-beatings in labor protests.

    And so on. So there always have been things wrong that lead people to evil and senseless violence. I'm not sure what can be done on that particular front.

     

     

    I think part of what's going on is that there is no an established pattern of what you do if you are a sick twisted individual who is not incompetent, but who clearly has mental issues, and you want to kill yourself. But, you're angry at the world and have a score to settle. So what do you do? The paradigm now, apparently, is kill a bunch of innocents and then shoot yourself.

    Video games didn't implant this idea. The first few mass shootings did.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree video games didn't create the problem but at the same time they obsessive involvement seem to be part of what is going on with an individual who is going through some type of mental break as they hed down the rabiit hole of destruction.  Most likley these kids also have a history of animal torure in their background.

     
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    Re: CT elemetary school shooting; praying all my BDC friends and family are ok!

    We're not going to stamp out mental illness, so if there's a solution it has to be through gun control.

    I think we should tackle the issue through the ammunition.  Make non-lethal ammunition (rubber bullets and shock rounds) readily available but require lethal ammo to jump through hoops, particularly if ordered in large quantities.  Put the burden of the background checks on the manufacturer, and require it be traceable, so if there are any incidents that can be traced back to inadequate background checks, the manufacturer is opened up to wrongful death suits.

    The guns themselves would not be affected, so collectors and sportsmen should still be happy, and non-lethal ammunition provides plenty of self-defense.  Hunters and ranchers may still need lethal ammo, but shotguns and hunting rifles are a very small part of the problem, compared to handguns.

     

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