Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to miscricket's comment:

     

    In response to tvoter's comment:

     

     

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

     

     

     

    He just runs his mouth for a reaction.

     

     

     



    Exactly the same as EVERY poster on here!

     

     

     

     




    Not really....some of us actually enjoy having intelligent discussions about the issues of the day...in spite of all the background noise from those just here for a reaction. 

     

     

     

    I can only speak for myself...but I've already invested enough time in trying to convince skeeter to display a modicum of intellectual honesty in this thread. He is content simply repeating the anti obamacare, anti-government talking points. 



    What I am pointing out is that the complaints and charges about the issues with Obamacare, based on this case, appear to be true.

     

    as far as anti-government, you can't be serious. Here we sit knee-deep in government scandals, and you are trying to make it sound like the anti-government talking points are the issue.  Simply astounding.

    i think the progressives here could use your advice about showing some intellectual honesty.

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

     

     

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    In response to MattyScornD's comment:

     

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    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    "A federal judge on Wednesday ordered HHS Secretary Kathleen Sebelius to allow 10-year-old Sarah Murnaghan to be moved to the adult lung transplant list, giving her a better chance of receiving a potentially life-saving transplant."


    Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/06/sarah-murnaghan-lung-transplant-ruling-kathleen-sebelius-92299.html#ixzz2VS0BNrm0

    Aparently, Sebelius is the final say in life or death issues, and it took a judge to make here act.

    What do we do when she goes off the reservation on something, like the IRS?  What do we do when those with an "R" on their voting roll needs a transplant?  Do they get moved down the list?  Does it take a judge or a politician to get you moved up or down a government managed list?

    WDYWN is trying to distract us into a personal attack.  What I am pointing out is that the government now has power of whether you live or die, as this case shows.

    Obamacare needs to be stopped.

     

     

     

     



    You have it backward, as usual.

     

     

     

     

    Sebelius had no authority to change the rule without the judge's order.

    This case shows nothing of the kind.

     

    But even a little cognitive dissonance would show you that more people who can't afford transplants will be able to get them once the ACA is implemented, because more people will be covered.

    At up to $500,000 per transplant, that's not nothing.

     

     

     

     

     



    Sure.  that's why they went to Sebelius first.

     

     

     

    Why should they go to Sebelius at all?  Why should Sebelius need a court order?

    Shouldn't the doctor's say so be good enough to get her on the list?

     

    You are so wrapped up in government controlling healthcare, you don't even see the absurdity of Sebelius being involved AT ALL, judge or not.

     

     



    And you clearly are too wrapped up in hatred to understand the rules which necessarily cover this area of healthcare.  Do some research to understand why you're a bit mixed up here.

     

     

     

     



    Matty, my dear friend.  Don't decend into charges of hate.  Just face the facts.  This is a canary in the coal mine for Obamacare.  It does none of the things you say or think.

     

     

    Here are the facts:

    *  The girl needed to be on the list.

    *  They asked Sebelius, as Sebelius is the keeper of the rules.

    *  Sebelius said "Some live, some die".  The rules are the rules.

    *  A judge overruled Sebelius.

    *  the girl is on the list.

    Tell me.  Where is the Doctor in this process flow?

    Where is the benevolence of caring government workers?

    Where is the personalized focus on individual needs?

    None of those things are part of the system.  It took a good lawyer and an honest judge to un-do the harm Obamacare was doing to this yourng girl.  How's that going to work when you or I need the same?

    Your inconvient truth is that you are fine with government making health care decisions for individuals, or, put more plainly, individuals be d@mned.  In fact, you prefer government over the insurance companies you hate, and the doctors you claim have authority but don't.  You probably don't trust doctors either.  

    You trust government.

     

     

     



    I'm not your friend.

     

     

     

    It's your hatred of anything in relation to the president (or your twisted view of progressive policy) that blinds you to the fact that govt-run medicare places restrictions on coverage and care just like private insurance companies do...and often the doctor can do nothing about it...short of ponying up the money or working pro bono.

    Nor do you see that the entire health care system makes these life-death decisions every day...and often based solely upon the bottom line.  You only care about this case because you think it makes the most significant health insurance reform in 45 years look bad.  Before, you complained about too many people getting care, and now you complain because you think one case makes your point??  Please...

    Count yourself among those americans who have no idea what the ACA does or the myriad problems it attempts to fix.  If the choice were yours, you would keep the status quo, and the lives of that girl and more like her would be even more at risk.  In the end, the ACA will end up saving more lives for less cost - to everyone's benefit.  Even yours.

     

     

     


     

     

     

    You failed to answer my questions, which were based on your claims, so I'll take that as admission that I am, once again, right on the facts. 

    No, you're still wrong (on most everything)...whether I answered your inane, irrelevant questions or not.

    You, on the other hand, ignore the piling evidence that OBamacare is a train wreck, as you claim things that are demonstrably wrong.

    And you ignore the fact that this case has NOTHING to do with Obamacare.  Period.  You only think it does, and once again, it's obscuring your judgment.

    If you want to argue about how organ donations are set up in this country, you can look to the existing laws and the many, many deficits in the existing (before the ACA) health care system that you want to return to.

    Think about that, my friend.

    And I'm still not your friend.

     

     

     

    You are being intellectually dishonest if you say this has nothing to do with Obamacare.  If it has nothing to do with Obamacare, why did the judge have to order the head of Obamacare to add the girl thesis list?

    you won't answer that, will you?

     

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    It is sad to see the liberals claim that I am being intellectually dishonest by claiming this case is an example of what happens Under Obamacare.  Yet not a one of them will address the facts right in front of their face: the judge ordered he head of Obamacare to add this girl to the list.

    that makes this an issue with Obamacare, and puts a lie to their intellectual dishonesty.

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

     

     

    It is sad to see the liberals claim that I am being intellectually dishonest by claiming this case is an example of what happens Under Obamacare.  Yet not a one of them will address the facts right in front of their face: the judge ordered he head of Obamacare to add this girl to the list.

    that makes this an issue with Obamacare, and puts a lie to their intellectual dishonesty.

     

     




    Keep tilting at those imaginary windmills skeeter....

     

     

     

     



    Care to answer the question?

     

    i didn't think so.

    The progressive sacrament of Obamacare has been found wanting.  Tis case proves it, and the progressives are in denial.

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     


    Care to answer the question?

     




     

    No problem: The Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network is a private organization that was created by law in 1984, well before ACA was a glimmer in Obama's eye.

    Oh wait, I know, Obama has been using his time machine again.

    Well ya got me there.

    That whackjob wingnut conspiracy theory defies logic, much less an explanation.



    That's not the question.  But, you knew that, you are dodging.

     

    The question is, why did a judge have to order the head of Obamacare to add her to the list? Is this not proof that the list is controlled by those responsible for Obamacare?

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?


    The progressives are unwilling to stand up and accept this canary in the coal mine.  Obamacare means you, and your doctor, are no longer in control of your healthcare.  The government is.

    I guess the answer for them is, yes, they want government making these decisions.

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to GreginMeffa's comment:

     

     

    The parents brought it to court, and you blame the GOP.  You have know idea what the parents affiliation is.  Add this to the two republican war threads and you get a three-fer.

     




    Are you really that much of an idiot? Seriously?

     

    If you weren't such a smug horse's backside, I'd feel sorry for you.

     

    Not only were you morons on these boards pushing for it, there is this:

     

    Republicans urge Sebelius to intervene to save 10-year-old girl's life

    WASHINGTON, June 4 (UPI) -- Kathleen Sebelius came under attack Tuesday from U.S. House Republicans who want her to get a lung transplant for a 10-year-old Pennsylvania girl.

    "It simply takes your signature," Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., told Sebelius, the head of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services who appeared before the House Committee on Education and the Workforce.

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/06/04/Republicans-urge-Sebelius-to-intervene-to-save-10-year-old-girls-life/UPI-61981370396462/

     

    Congressional Republicans have been pressing Sebelius to intervene in Sarah Murnaghan's case since last week. Sebelius has declined, saying she would review the policies on transplants for children but that making a one-time exception for Murnaghan would deny a transplant to another young child.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/legal-challenges/303797-judge-intervenes-in-transplant-case

    Just shut up already.



    In other words only conservatives care about this girl living. Ok, thanks!

     

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    Ya, that's what I thought..... crickets.

     



    So, you do admit Sebelius, the head of implementing Obamacare, is the one making the decsion?  Why else would Republicans URGE her to add this girl to the list?

    The left gets hung with its own logic.  I like it!

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    In response to A_Concerned_Citizen's comment:

     

    Ya, that's what I thought..... crickets.

     



    So, you do admit Sebelius, the head of implementing Obamacare, is the one making the decsion?  Why else would Republicans URGE her to add this girl to the list?

    The left gets hung with its own logic.  I like it!

     




    Heh, ya okay, you got me.

     

    It was Obama stepping into his way-back machine and affecting a law that would consolidate all transplant stuff under HHS so that in the future he could add to that consolidation with his own ACA, thus making the Sec HHS the most powerful position in America.

    Ya gotta admit the guy is a mad genius for pulling it off.



    You keep going for the "way back machine" thing.  It's not working, as your point is meaningless.  But, glad you admit that it has all been consolidated under Obamacare.So, by admitting such, you see that I am correct.  

    Good work figuring that all out by yourself.

     
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    Re: Do We Really Want Government Making These Decisions?

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:

     

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

     

    Sebelius, the head of implementing Obamacare, is the one making the decsion?

    There are a few problems with your position.

     

     

     

    1. According to all the information in this thread, before there was a HHS, nobody could have intervened. The decision would have been made automatically by the rules of a private organization. That Sebelius could intervene is a new thing. You are demanding she must intervene whenever someone asks her to.

    Your complaint is that Obamacare means government can now intervene, and you are complaining that government is not intervening.

    2. Your are raping a tregedy for internets points.

    3. There is no right answer here. There are less lungs available than there are people who will die soon without a lung. You are therefore taking a decision to not kill one child in order to save another child (the one whose parents are asking for intervention), and using it to suggest that Sebelius is heartless or that Obamacare is somehow at fault for a lack of organs in general.

     

     


    Possible scenarios:

    * No intervention. This girl dies, another child lives.

    * No intervension. This girl dies, another child rejects implant and dies.

    * Intervention. This girl lives, another child dies.

    * Intervention. This girl rejects implant and dies, another child dies.


    I've seen some serious lows on these boards, but that someone would play politics with this one is a bit of a shocker.

     



    "That Sebelius could intervene is a new thing. You are demanding she must intervene whenever someone asks her to"

     

    Not me asking, this is the new process.   I was fine with the old system, which was managed by a private company.

    But, thanks for makig my point that under OBamacare, healthcare is controlled by government:  Who gets it, who doesn't.  As you so accurately stated, before Obamacare, that was not the case.

     

    As far as your second point:  I am doing nothing of the sort.  You are simply throwing mud because you know my central point is correct., and that is inconvient for you, as you want everyone to just shut up and live with Obamacare.

    I am pointing out what you Obamacare supporters refuse to admit, that the medical system under Obamacare, medical care has become politized.  If you don't have the ear of a politician, or, as in this case, the media and a judge, you will not get care.

    As far as your third point:  Absolutely correct, sort of.  There are actually more of organs for  transplant available than the current system manages to "find" available.  

    What has happened is that the law to which others refer came out of a desire to stifle competition, and keep the pool of available organs limited to the rules established by the OPA's.  Example:  Kidneys are good for transplantation here in the U.S. , under the rules set up by OPA's for 48 hours, then it is illegal to use them.  What happens to those "illegal" kidneys?  They are send overseas where they are successfully used for patients in need.

    This ties to this point , whihc you are trying to make by reading my mind, or something:

    "and using it to suggest that Sebelius is heartless or that Obamacare is somehow at fault for a lack of organs in general."

    I am not saying Sebelius is hearless. she may or may not be.  What I am saying, despite your attempts to twist it, is that GOVERNMENT IS NOW MAKING THE DECISION that previously was in the hands of doctors via the organ database.  Do you really argue that point?  your own post supports that view.  You might say that is good.  I say it is bad.

    As far as Obamacare being at fault for a lack of organs in general:  When did I say that?  I am only saying the person with the best lawyer, access to a judge or politician, is goiing to "magically" appear at the top of the list, or get on a list they should not be on for medical reasons.  THAT is where we are heading.  I know it, you know it, and the Merican people know it.

    This is an example of where Obamacare is leading, as this once private list is now in the hands of government.  What's next?  

    Take off the rose colored glasses.

     
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