Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    Bloomberg was Mayor when the recommendation came out and pooh poohed it then as he does now.  I guess 32 oz drinks were a stronger threat to the city.  If it's one thing that politicians don't like its spending money on boring infrastructure, which is why dams fail, bridges fall down and sewer systems reach capacity.  They do like shiny new bridges and transit expansions; good photo-ops.   

     

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/nyregion/in-2009-engineers-detailed-storm-surge-threat-to-new-york-city.html

     

    Engineers' Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

      By JAMES GLANZ and MIREYA NAVARRO

    As the authorities examine how they can protect New York City from extreme weather events like Hurricane Sandy, one of the nation's most influential groups of engineers is pointing out that more than three years ago, it presented detailed warnings that a devastating storm surge in the region was all but inevitable.

    The warnings were voiced at a seminar in New York City convened by the American Society of Civil Engineers, whose findings are so respected that they are often written into building codes around the world. Corporate, academic and government engineers at the meeting presented computer simulations of the storm-surge threat and detailed engineering designs of measures to counter it.

    Officials from the city's Office of Emergency Management and the United States Army Corps of Engineers took part in the seminar, serving on review panels or giving talks.

    Participants in the 2009 seminar called on officials to seriously consider whether to install surge barriers or tide gates in New York Harbor to protect the city. Their views are contained in 300 pages of technical papers, historical studies and engineering designs from the seminar, copies of which the society provided to The New York Times.

    Any effort to install such barriers would be extremely costly and take many years to carry out.

    Even if the government had embraced such a proposal in 2009, it would not have been in place to prevent destruction from Tropical Storm Irene last year or Hurricane Sandy last week.

    Some scientists have championed such barriers for years. But as the region struggles with the devastation after the storm, some of the engineers involved in the 2009 seminar see parallels to alarms that went unheeded before Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005.

    "Scientists and engineers were saying years before Katrina happened, Hey, it's going to happen, folks. Stop putting your head in the sand," said Malcolm Bowman, a professor of oceanography at the State University at Stony Brook who spoke at the conference and is an editor of the proceedings.

    "The same thing's now happened here," Professor Bowman said.

    He said the most workable plan would involve a roughly five-mile barrier from Sandy Hook, N.J., to the Rockaway Peninsula. A smaller barrier would stretch across the top of the East River to protect against surges from Long Island Sound.

    East River barriers might rise from the ocean floor using hydraulics as a threat approached, and the larger barrier would require locks and sluiceways to allow ships and water to pass during ordinary times.

    Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg has expressed doubt about such barriers and whether the benefits would outweigh the costs  well over $10 billion, by most estimates.

    "I don't think there's any practical way to build barriers in the oceans," he said on Thursday. "Even if you spent a fortune, it's not clear to me that you would get much value for it."

    Asked about the society's findings in 2009, Lauren Passalacqua, a spokeswoman for the mayor, said on Sunday that the city was looking into a number of measures to protect against storms, including barriers.

    Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo has said in recent days that barriers were worth seriously examining.

    Experts who were at the 2009 conference said that while the technology comes with many questions, it has already been deployed around the world, including in the Netherlands and on the Thames in London. Several American cities have versions of the structures, and a barrier surrounds St. Petersburg, Russia.

    Jeroen Aerts, a researcher from the University of Amsterdam who was retained by the city in 2009 to assess flood risks and protections, said he was asked by officials to look into barriers after Tropical Storm Irene.

    Dr. Aerts said that he was still working on the research, but that the city should consider such a proposal. "Obviously, there's a sense of urgency now," he said.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tvoter. Show tvoter's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    Bush's fault

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to tvoter's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bush's fault

    [/QUOTE]


    Actually Recommendations came at the start of Obama's term; the US Army Corps participated and nothing happened.  A $10B barrrier system could have prevented $50B in damages, never mind the loss of life and disruption to the eceonomy; not a bad payback for a single event.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattyScornD. Show MattyScornD's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    The warnings go back further than 2009.  The results of inaction speak for themselves.

    Credit Bloomberg for finally coming to the realization...one that most of the GOP still fails to admit or understand:

    climate change = bigger storms 

    more coastal development = more damage

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Firewind. Show Firewind's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bloomberg was Mayor when the recommendation came out and pooh poohed it then as he does now.  I guess 32 oz drinks were a stronger threat to the city.  If it's one thing that politicians don't like its spending money on boring infrastructure, which is why dams fail, bridges fall down and sewer systems reach capacity.  They do like shiny new bridges and transit expansions; good photo-ops.   

    [/QUOTE]

    A moderate opening a thread to feed a piece to prominently insult another moderate?  You're blowing your cover.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sistersledge. Show Sistersledge's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    I'm not an engineer but if there was a man made barrier protecting New York Harbor and a storm surge came up the inlet and when that surge hit the barrier the water will have to go somewhere. That somewhere will be the surrounding shorelines of that inlet where hundreds of thousands of other people live.  

     
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  9. This post has been removed.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BetheKoolaid. Show BetheKoolaid's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    "climate change = bigger storms"

    No evidence of such...the number and intensity of hurricanes are cyclical over decades...Overall, the US is in a hurricane drought...no Cat 3 has hit the US since 2005. In 1954, 3 big hurricanes hit the eastern seaboard in one month! No one blamed global warming.

    .. "more coastal development = more damage"

    Quite true. A major reason for such? Cheap federal flood insurance allows for wealthy folks to build nice big vacation homes with nice ocean views...rebuilt on the taxpayer's dime , over and over. More government incompetence.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to BetheKoolaid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    "climate change = bigger storms"

    No evidence of such...the number and intensity of hurricanes are cyclical over decades...Overall, the US is in a hurricane drought...no Cat 3 has hit the US since 2005. In 1954, 3 big hurricanes hit the eastern seaboard in one month! No one blamed global warming.

    .. "more coastal development = more damage"

    Quite true. A major reason for such? Cheap federal flood insurance allows for wealthy folks to build nice big vacation homes with nice ocean views...rebuilt on the taxpayer's dime , over and over. More government incompetence.

    [/QUOTE]

    Is that brown ring around your neck from having your head buried in the sand or from having your  Head doe place else?  

    Koolaid vs 98% of climatologists.  Hmm, thats a tough one but I think I'm going to have to go with the climatologists

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to Sistersledge's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm not an engineer but if there was a man made barrier protecting New York Harbor and a storm surge came up the inlet and when that surge hit the barrier the water will have to go somewhere. That somewhere will be the surrounding shorelines of that inlet where hundreds of thousands of other people live.  

    [/QUOTE]

    You're right you're not an engineer.  The proposed gate are just like the one protecting Providence, RI.  The flood waters being prevented from heading up into the harbor are absorbed and distributed in the vast ocean.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to Firewind's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to massmoderateJoe's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bloomberg was Mayor when the recommendation came out and pooh poohed it then as he does now.  I guess 32 oz drinks were a stronger threat to the city.  If it's one thing that politicians don't like its spending money on boring infrastructure, which is why dams fail, bridges fall down and sewer systems reach capacity.  They do like shiny new bridges and transit expansions; good photo-ops.   

    [/QUOTE]

    A moderate opening a thread to feed a piece to prominently insult another moderate?  You're blowing your cover.

    [/QUOTE]

    Bloomberg is a mixed bag, too socially active for me.  But my comments concerning his not paying attention to the threat is not just him; all politicians ignore infrastructure investment especially the mundane water, sewer and utility ones because they are buried and out of the way and of course they don't need any upkeep.  Pols only like new highly visable projects that they can cut a ribbon for.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Engineers’ Warnings in 2009 Detailed Storm Surge Threat to the Region

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    So the wingnuts advocate spending tens-of-billions of gov't dollars on a barrier for one city?

    I guess the "gov't doesn't solve problems..." speil is out of style these days.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well this one city has a population larger than Masschusetts.  A $10B investment is only 20% of what the reconstrcution cost is.

    It should be funded in a similar formula to the Interstate Highway System; 80% Fed/20% State/Local.

    This type of project is exactly what the federal government should be involved in.

     
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