Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

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    Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    Sad news out of Ireland this week. A young Indian woman, Savita Halappanavar, died after suffering a miscarriage.

    Doctors had told Savita that her pregnancy was going to end in miscarriage and when she requested that it be terminated so that she did not have to endure the physical pain and emotional agony of her pregnancy terminating naturally she was told.. by Irish law... doctors could not perform this service because there was still a detectable heartbeat.

    So...instead..nature took it's course and now a young woman is dead after contracting an infection during the miscarriage. This is something that many people don't understand...that the risks to the mother are often much greater in a miscarriage than in a controlled medical procedure.

    To me..this is where the idea of "abortion rights" and "choice" become something that is far from a black and white issue. Ms. Halappanavar's fetus was not going to survive anyhow. No doubt the family was going to mourn one loss. Now..because of a government policy...guided by Catholic belief( Sad irony that Savita is not even Catholic)....the result was the loss of two lives..not just one.

    This is why I feel that religious beliefs have no place in a medical setting. This is why I support a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body. I don't support abortion as a form of birth control..or for convenience...but those on the other side of the argument seek to cloak abortion as an all or nothing proposition...an evil choice that irresponsible women make on a whim..when most of the time..it is anything but.

    Instead...the choice and tragedy that goes along with terminating a pregnancy brings with it a not fifty shades of grey...but a thousand shades of grey..and not one of them anyone's business.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    Clearly the health of the monther should be an exception, and you have to go all the way to Ireland to make your point.  Hey, Obama is in, abortion is pleniful and free, and sometimes even encouraged.

    Let's leave religion out of it, let's just settle on belief, ok?  you beleive one thing, I beleive another.  If you have followed my comments on this subject, I have never injected religion onto the discussion, I have stuck with reason and science.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Clearly the health of the monther should be an exception, and you have to go all the way to Ireland to make your point.  Hey, Obama is in, abortion is pleniful and free, and sometimes even encouraged.

    Let's leave religion out of it, let's just settle on belief, ok?  you beleive one thing, I beleive another.  If you have followed my comments on this subject, I have never injected religion onto the discussion, I have stuck with reason and science.

     




    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   

     
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    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    I personally abhor the idea that abortion is prudent birth control and believe there should be restraints.  I also believe that there should be significant restraints on abortion after the first trimester; that being said although I personally disagree with abortion it is not for me to change the laws or to prevent it, as that is between a woman and her doctor.  I do believe that a 24 hr hold should be placed abortion after the initial consult and that a sonogram be performed to ensure informed consent. 

    That being said, parental consent must be required for minors by law.  There should never be a restriction on abortion based on the health risk to the mother, and due to rape.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Clearly the health of the monther should be an exception, and you have to go all the way to Ireland to make your point.  Hey, Obama is in, abortion is pleniful and free, and sometimes even encouraged.

    Let's leave religion out of it, let's just settle on belief, ok?  you beleive one thing, I beleive another.  If you have followed my comments on this subject, I have never injected religion onto the discussion, I have stuck with reason and science.

     




    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   

    Wrong.  You really need to engage some relgious people if you are going to claim you understand them.

    Morals are shaped by our religious  views.

    Reason and science are shaped by learning.

     
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    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   

    [/QUOTE]

    I'd say it was whether one has a conscience .. or not.

    [/QUOTE]

    I question whether you have a conscience.  If it exists it is surely shaped by your supposed religious values.

     
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    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   

    [/QUOTE]

    Wrong.  You really need to engage some relgious people if you are going to claim you understand them.

    Morals are shaped by our religious  views.

    Reason and science are shaped by learning.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sure.  Tell that to Galilleo.  There is no "science" on the legal status of a fertilized egg.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     




    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   

    Wrong.  You really need to engage some relgious people if you are going to claim you understand them.

    Morals are shaped by our religious  views.

    Reason and science are shaped by learning.



Sure.  Tell that to Galilleo.  There is no "science" on the legal status of a fertilized egg.

my.  That's a tangled thought.  Law and science, and some sort of nod to a definition of life in the same sentence.  How to unpack such a convoluted non-thought... 

The law recognizes rights of the unborn.  Haven't you heard about people being tried for two murders, say, in the case of a car acident where a pregant woman dies.

So,  I am going to church to learn quantum mechanics?  Where's that being done?

Rube, why do you have such a bug up your asp about people who have a different set of morals than your own?

Why do you have such a bug up your asp about christians in particularIs it wrong for people to try to be better people than you would allow?

 

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

     

    [/QUOTE]

    my.  That's a tangled thought.  Law and science, and some sort of nod to a definition of life in the same sentence.  How to unpack such a convoluted non-thought... 

    The law recognizes rights of the unborn.  Haven't you heard about people being tried for two murders, say, in the case of a car acident where a pregant woman dies.

    So,  I am going to church to learn quantum mechanics?  Where's that being done?

    Rube, why do you have such a bug up your asp about people who have a different set of morals than your own?

    Why do you have such a bug up your asp about christians in particularIs it wrong for people to try to be better people than you would allow?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You just refuse to understand the thoughts of those that disagree with you. 

    Fetuses have legal standing as determined by legal principles.  That should not be a shock.  Science is secondary.

    You are the one who has a bug up your asp about differing moral principles.  I don't care about your views.  I do care that you seek to impose those views on others.  Have no fear I am not going to make you have an abortion.  Or go gay.  Or do anything else that you don't want to do.  But you wont pay me and mine the same courtesy.  

    And lots of Christians don't believe in your version of Christianity.  It is not the faith, it is your arrogant desire to impose your version of its moral precepts on others who are not part of your version of the religion.  My people have along history of rejecting Puritan confomity efforts.  I continue that tradition.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    Back to... is 21st century man smarter than God?

    Do our laws trump thousands of years of morals and values?

    All subjective and to no winnable end.



    You are in no position to talk about the mind of God.  

    Thousands of years of morals? Do you include the Crusades, the Inquisition, the witch trials, and the progroms.  Those were all moral acts done in the name of religion at the time.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    I said it was not winnable.. by anyone. Lets move on.org.

    I suggest we have a slightly different perspective since the inquisition.

    ..although most things are cyclical.



    Cyclical?  You are looking forward to a new Inquisition?  Thanks for the update of where your mind is at.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     

    my.  That's a tangled thought.  Law and science, and some sort of nod to a definition of life in the same sentence.  How to unpack such a convoluted non-thought... 

    The law recognizes rights of the unborn.  Haven't you heard about people being tried for two murders, say, in the case of a car acident where a pregant woman dies.

    So,  I am going to church to learn quantum mechanics?  Where's that being done?

    Rube, why do you have such a bug up your asp about people who have a different set of morals than your own?

    Why do you have such a bug up your asp about christians in particularIs it wrong for people to try to be better people than you would allow?

     



    You just refuse to understand the thoughts of those that disagree with you. 

    Fetuses have legal standing as determined by legal principles.  That should not be a shock.  Science is secondary.

    You are the one who has a bug up your asp about differing moral principles.  I don't care about your views.  I do care that you seek to impose those views on others.  Have no fear I am not going to make you have an abortion.  Or go gay.  Or do anything else that you don't want to do.  But you wont pay me and mine the same courtesy.  

    And lots of Christians don't believe in your version of Christianity.  It is not the faith, it is your arrogant desire to impose your version of its moral precepts on others who are not part of your version of the religion.  My people have along history of rejecting Puritan confomity efforts.  I continue that tradition.

  •  

    So much hate and misdirection.  face it, you are beat.  You are ilogical, and just bubbling over in hatred for those who have morals.  What I can't figure out is why. What is wrong with having a high sense of morality?  Whether you agree or not, can't you at least repsect people who differ wthout throwing down the "religion" card?

    And, stop throwing that red herring about trying to force my morals on everyone else. you should know it doesn't work that way.  You need to convince people that your way is better, not impose or force.  Red herring, dishonest, and ineffective.  It is your side that is forcing your morals on everyone else, with the force of law.  Square that circle.

    But, that aside, at what point does a baby have rights?

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from AlleyCatBruin. Show AlleyCatBruin's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Clearly the health of the monther should be an exception, and you have to go all the way to Ireland to make your point.  Hey, Obama is in, abortion is pleniful and free, and sometimes even encouraged.

    Let's leave religion out of it, let's just settle on belief, ok?  you beleive one thing, I beleive another.  If you have followed my comments on this subject, I have never injected religion onto the discussion, I have stuck with reason and science.

     




    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   



    I'd say it was whether one has a conscience .. or not.




    You clearly have no consience.....

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to AlleyCatBruin's comment:

    In response to NO MO O's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    Clearly the health of the monther should be an exception, and you have to go all the way to Ireland to make your point.  Hey, Obama is in, abortion is pleniful and free, and sometimes even encouraged.

    Let's leave religion out of it, let's just settle on belief, ok?  you beleive one thing, I beleive another.  If you have followed my comments on this subject, I have never injected religion onto the discussion, I have stuck with reason and science.

     




    Your understanding of "reason and science" is shaped by your religious views.   



    I'd say it was whether one has a conscience .. or not.




    You clearly have no consience.....



    You say that on what basis?

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:

     

    my.  That's a tangled thought.  Law and science, and some sort of nod to a definition of life in the same sentence.  How to unpack such a convoluted non-thought... 

    The law recognizes rights of the unborn.  Haven't you heard about people being tried for two murders, say, in the case of a car acident where a pregant woman dies.

    So,  I am going to church to learn quantum mechanics?  Where's that being done?

    Rube, why do you have such a bug up your asp about people who have a different set of morals than your own?

    Why do you have such a bug up your asp about christians in particularIs it wrong for people to try to be better people than you would allow?

     



    You just refuse to understand the thoughts of those that disagree with you. 

    Fetuses have legal standing as determined by legal principles.  That should not be a shock.  Science is secondary.

    You are the one who has a bug up your asp about differing moral principles.  I don't care about your views.  I do care that you seek to impose those views on others.  Have no fear I am not going to make you have an abortion.  Or go gay.  Or do anything else that you don't want to do.  But you wont pay me and mine the same courtesy.  

    And lots of Christians don't believe in your version of Christianity.  It is not the faith, it is your arrogant desire to impose your version of its moral precepts on others who are not part of your version of the religion.  My people have along history of rejecting Puritan confomity efforts.  I continue that tradition.

     

    So much hate and misdirection.  face it, you are beat.  You are ilogical, and just bubbling over in hatred for those who have morals.  What I can't figure out is why. What is wrong with having a high sense of morality?  Whether you agree or not, can't you at least repsect people who differ wthout throwing down the "religion" card?

    And, stop throwing that red herring about trying to force my morals on everyone else. you should know it doesn't work that way.  You need to convince people that your way is better, not impose or force.  Red herring, dishonest, and ineffective.  It is your side that is forcing your morals on everyone else, with the force of law.  Square that circle.

    But, that aside, at what point does a baby have rights?



  • That's a slippery slope question that those on the left refuse to confront.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    I'm in favor of small government and therefore think the government should tell women what they must do their pregancies.


    Sincerely,

    The comical hypocrisy of the FoxNews Crowd

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    I'm in favor of small government and therefore think the government should tell women what they must do their pregancies.


    Sincerely,

    The comical hypocrisy of the FoxNews Crowd



    at what point does a baby have rights?

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    Well, I'll go to the British Isles like you, and point out how far abortion has strayed from the liberal sob story:

     

    http://christiannews.net/2012/11/30/british-doctor-reveals-how-sick-babies-and-children-are-left-to-die-in-hospitals/

     

    Killing babies AFTER they are born. 

    This is what you get when you untether  these issues from basic morality and instead rely on liberal orthodoxy.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    I'm in favor of small government and therefore think the government should tell women what they must do their pregancies.


    Sincerely,

    The comical hypocrisy of the FoxNews Crowd



    at what point does a baby have rights?



    At 18 they get the right to vote.  Maybe that was the flaw in the GOP's strategy.  They chose to marginalize minorities, young people and women because they knew their Pro-Life stance would help them carry the Fetus vote by a wide margin.  The problem of course is that unborn children are a traditionally unreliable and low turnout demographic.  Back to the drawing board RNC!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Fifty Shades of Grey...another conversation about abortion

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    In response to Thesemenarecowards' comment:

    I'm in favor of small government and therefore think the government should tell women what they must do their pregancies.


    Sincerely,

    The comical hypocrisy of the FoxNews Crowd



    at what point does a baby have rights?



    At 18 they get the right to vote.  Maybe that was the flaw in the GOP's strategy.  They chose to marginalize minorities, young people and women because they knew their Pro-Life stance would help them carry the Fetus vote by a wide margin.  The problem of course is that unborn children are a traditionally unreliable and low turnout demographic.  Back to the drawing board RNC!

    So, you are for abortion up to the age of 18? 

     
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