GOP is a party of diversity!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    To celebrate "real diversity," you think religion should be taught as the equivalent of mathematics and physics?

     

    I think that you're suffering from 12-Angry-Man disease. Read what I said, not what you want to think I said.

    I have some rather strong beliefs about the origin of the universe (see Bloom, Howard (athiest) for a general summary), none of which require a deity. Of course, they don't actually exclude the potential involvement of a supreme being either.


    The point is that Rubio is being inclusive and diverse, a concept that liberals talk a lot about but don't really understand and rarely exercise.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from StalkingButler. Show StalkingButler's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    Give the GOP a little credit.  They just nominated a devout mormon for the presidency and almost got him elected (those darn "gifts"!). The mormons have been officially open to blacks for nearly 35 years now.  That should count for something, no?

     

    It's nice to see that, at least in public, you seem to be unbiased towards some people. I guess that's progress, eh?

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    To celebrate "real diversity," you think religion should be taught as the equivalent of mathematics and physics?

     

     

    I think that you're suffering from 12-Angry-Man disease. Read what I said, not what you want to think I said.

    I have some rather strong beliefs about the origin of the universe (see Bloom, Howard (athiest) for a general summary), none of which require a deity. Of course, they don't actually exclude the potential involvement of a supreme being either.


    The point is that Rubio is being inclusive and diverse, a concept that liberals talk a lot about but don't really understand and rarely exercise.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You are correct, liberals are not diverse.  Liberals have become the "Big Brother" of Orwell's 1984, always deciding what we can eat, wear, drink.  Liberals are about control, not diversity.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    The point is that Rubio is being inclusive and diverse, a concept that liberals talk a lot about but don't really understand and rarely exercise.



    Let's review.

     

    This is the statement you indicated was proof that he is being really diverse:

     

    "I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all."

     


    There is one physical theory, with some variants on the precise workings, for how the universe is ("created" is the wrong word, but I digress).

    There are religious theories about how the universe was created.

    Only the former should be taught as science.

     

     

     

     

    Or is he pretending that liberals want to stop the church from teaching its doctrine to adherents? If so that would be some rather dishonest and divisive posturing.

    "Liberals" have no problem with the free exercise of religion. It's just that, more often than conservatives, they like to use their right to freedom of speech to criticize the exercise of religion.

     

     

     

     

    And a final note: saying that the Earth was created either "seven days" or "seven eras" ago is NOT being inclusive or tolerant.

    That view is bible-based, and excludes everyone else who says F that, radiocarbon dating indicates it's 5 billion years old, and our current understanding of gravity says the remnants of exploding stars and galactic dust slowly drew together over time and eventually....hey presto.

    It also excludes religious people who don't take the bible literally, and ignore the bit about 7 days/eras, choosing to go with the far more rational conclusion that if the God they believe in exists, that God probably wouldn't make mathematics and physics a big joke on us.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    And on the the 7th day the lord sayeth "Let there be W hore houses."

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You are correct, liberals are not diverse.  Liberals have become the "Big Brother" of Orwell's 1984, always deciding what we can eat, wear, drink.  Liberals are about control, not diversity.

    [/QUOTE]


    Sure.  Let's mix up science and mythology and teach both as "diversity".  That will help our academic standing in the world...

    And aren't you a social conservative intent on controlling the actions of others?  That kind of diversity is oh so very wrong...

    Apparently you have trouble with leading a rational life.   Too much "control" and too much "diversity" at the same time. 

     

    And unthinking dogma are at the heart of the totalitarianism of 1984. 

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Firewind. Show Firewind's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    I've been saying that I think Sen. Rubio is the republicans' best next hope, but this is a mark on the other side of the ledger, IMO. It sounds like a Romneyism -- a marker that he can use to come down on any and all sides of an issue in the future, and say he always believed in the position de jour. Not necessarily a deal killer in one instance, but definitely could be a problem if it becomes a pattern and trait. (And a problem for the base, first and last, as it was for Mr. Romney.)

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from massmoderateJoe. Show massmoderateJoe's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to MattyScornD's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Give the GOP a little credit.  They just nominated a devout mormon for the presidency and almost got him elected (those darn "gifts"!).

    The mormons have been officially open to blacks for nearly 35 years now.  That should count for something, no?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok the Mormons were about 5 years slower then one of the Senates geat leaders. 

    Sen Byrd (D) from wiki

     

    Late in his life, Byrd explicitly renounced his earlier views favoring racial segregation. Byrd said that he regretted filibustering and voting against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and would change it if he had the opportunity. He said joining the KKK was "the greatest mistake I ever made." Byrd also said that his views changed dramatically after his teenage grandson was killed in a 1982 traffic accident, which put him in a deep emotional valley. "The death of my grandson caused me to stop and think," said Byrd, adding he came to realize that black people love their children as much as he does his.

     

    That was easy. 

     

    But lookng at the current batch of GOP Govrenors, pretty diverse even when compared to the Dems.  I have a lot of hope that they are part of a wave that radically changes its social GOP platforms and rebrands itself over the next 4 years.

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to StalkingButler's comment:

    The point is that Rubio is being inclusive and diverse, a concept that liberals talk a lot about but don't really understand and rarely exercise.



    Let's review.

     

    This is the statement you indicated was proof that he is being really diverse:

     

    "I think there are multiple theories out there on how the universe was created and I think this is a country where people should have the opportunity to teach them all."

     


    There is one physical theory, with some variants on the precise workings, for how the universe is ("created" is the wrong word, but I digress).

    There are religious theories about how the universe was created.

    Only the former should be taught as science.

     

     

     

     

    Or is he pretending that liberals want to stop the church from teaching its doctrine to adherents? If so that would be some rather dishonest and divisive posturing.

    "Liberals" have no problem with the free exercise of religion. It's just that, more often than conservatives, they like to use their right to freedom of speech to criticize the exercise of religion.

     

     

     

     

    And a final note: saying that the Earth was created either "seven days" or "seven eras" ago is NOT being inclusive or tolerant.

    That view is bible-based, and excludes everyone else who says F that, radiocarbon dating indicates it's 5 billion years old, and our current understanding of gravity says the remnants of exploding stars and galactic dust slowly drew together over time and eventually....hey presto.

    It also excludes religious people who don't take the bible literally, and ignore the bit about 7 days/eras, choosing to go with the far more rational conclusion that if the God they believe in exists, that God probably wouldn't make mathematics and physics a big joke on us.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right?

    Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best.

    The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right?

    Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best.

    The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Are you truly a Biblical literalist?  You abide by all the rules established in the Old Testament?  You believe all the stories?  Or do you pick and choose? 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You are correct, liberals are not diverse.  Liberals have become the "Big Brother" of Orwell's 1984, always deciding what we can eat, wear, drink.  Liberals are about control, not diversity.

    [/QUOTE]


    Sure.  Let's mix up science and mythology and teach both as "diversity".  That will help our academic standing in the world...

    And aren't you a social conservative intent on controlling the actions of others?  That kind of diversity is oh so very wrong...

    Apparently you have trouble with leading a rational life.   Too much "control" and too much "diversity" at the same time. 

     

    And unthinking dogma are at the heart of the totalitarianism of 1984. 

    [/QUOTE]

    "Apparently you have trouble with leading a rational life. "

    Apparently you have trouble with me living the life I want to live, not the life YOU want me to live.

    Liberals are nothing of the sort.  They are control freaks who spend their time meddling in other people's lives to make them "better".  More like makes the liberals feel superior.

     

    Get a grip.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right? Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best. The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.




    What a load of bullshiit.

     

    The bible isn't 'right' or 'wrong' any more than Catch-22 or War and Peace or Huckleberry Finn is 'right' or 'wrong'.

    [/QUOTE]


    I see.

    So, suitably boxed into actually taking a position, you clam it's all BS. 

    Which I assume includes your beliefs as well, eh?

    Despite what you might think, the bible is not a novel.  But, then again, The DaVinci code and 50 shades of grey are, and you have scores of your fellow unenlighted chasing down the sacred feminine, based...on..actual...novels.  Hmm.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Sure.  Let's mix up science and mythology and teach both as "diversity".  That will help our academic standing in the world...

    And aren't you a social conservative intent on controlling the actions of others?  That kind of diversity is oh so very wrong...

    Apparently you have trouble with leading a rational life.   Too much "control" and too much "diversity" at the same time. 

     

    And unthinking dogma are at the heart of the totalitarianism of 1984. 

    [/QUOTE]

    "Apparently you have trouble with leading a rational life. "

    Apparently you have trouble with me living the life I want to live, not the life YOU want me to live.

    Liberals are nothing of the sort.  They are control freaks who spend their time meddling in other people's lives to make them "better".  More like makes the liberals feel superior.

     

    Get a grip.

    [/QUOTE]


    No.  Live your life the way you want.  But when you make broad pronouncements please realize you are anything but rational in your approach.  And don't try to control those that don't believe your dagma without expecting a little push back.  Your truth is not the Truth.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right? Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best. The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.


    What a load of bullshiit.

     

    The bible isn't 'right' or 'wrong' any more than Catch-22 or War and Peace or Huckleberry Finn is 'right' or 'wrong'.

    [/QUOTE]


    I see.

    So, suitably boxed into actually taking a position, you clam it's all BS. 

    Which I assume includes your beliefs as well, eh?

    Despite what you might think, the bible is not a novel.  But, then again, The DaVinci code and 50 shades of grey are, and you have scores of your fellow unenlighted chasing down the sacred feminine, based...on..actual...novels.  Hmm.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Bible is part history and part mythology.

    Are you a literalist and believe it is all true?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right?

    Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best.

    The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.

    [/QUOTE]

    Are you truly a Biblical literalist?  You abide by all the rules established in the Old Testament?  You believe all the stories?  Or do you pick and choose? 

    [/QUOTE]


    The point is, the point I was trying to make, that the bible is not a novel.  That's just not accurate, even for secular progressives, it simply is not accurate.  In fact, it is not a book in the sense that we modernists think of books.  it is a collection of writings, some of which are history, some eye-witness testimony about Jesus, and in the Old Testament, others, some letters written to people as encouragement and explanation, all of it God-breathed according to believers.  There are a couple of sections that some people view as "novels" or "stories, like Tobit, Job. Still, these books figure into things theologically.

    As far as your question on being a literalist:  I think what you are driving at is do I beleive that the bible is the word of god?  I do.  I also believe when Jesus said he had not come to repeal the law, but to fulfill it.  You need, or one needs, to look at the old testament through the lense of the new testament.  This provides the perspective that might explain why you think you don't get a straight answer when you come at the bible with a preconceived notion that it is all garbage, lay doen the challenge, and get a responsethat doesn't suit your poit of view.

    As far as me personally:  I have lived most of my life in defiance of the love and care found in the bible, maybe like you.    I continue to live imperfectly, but, I recognize the importance and set-apart nature of the bible as the word of God.

    It is a subject people have written long books on, so I have covered it with some brevity.  I hope it answers your question suitably.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to 12-Angry-Men's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    The bible is either right, or it is wrong, right? Intolerance is the wrong metric.  the intolerance metric is about changing the word of god so as to not offend people who disagree with it.  That's just stupid, that's liberal logic at it's best. The proper metric is truth. Is it the word of God, or not?  And if so, (or not), prove it.


    What a load of bullshiit.

     

    The bible isn't 'right' or 'wrong' any more than Catch-22 or War and Peace or Huckleberry Finn is 'right' or 'wrong'.

    [/QUOTE]


    I see.

    So, suitably boxed into actually taking a position, you clam it's all BS. 

    Which I assume includes your beliefs as well, eh?

    Despite what you might think, the bible is not a novel.  But, then again, The DaVinci code and 50 shades of grey are, and you have scores of your fellow unenlighted chasing down the sacred feminine, based...on..actual...novels.  Hmm.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Bible is part history and part mythology.

    Are you a literalist and believe it is all true?

    [/QUOTE]

    To the specfic point of truth:  of course it is "true" as you mean it, it exists.  I think what you mean is do I beleive it happened, as in did everythign happen?  In the context of my last answer, yes.  Some parts don't pass your "truth" filter becasue they are not a recording of actual events.  For example, parables taught by Jesus.  Did they happen?  No, even Jesus is clear about that.  For the parables, there are points to the stories.  These points are "truths" i.e. knowledge learned through the telling of  the parable, the parable as example.

    Does this make sense to you?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    .

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Bible is part history and part mythology.

    Are you a literalist and believe it is all true?

    [/QUOTE]

    To the specfic point of truth:  of course it is "true" as you mean it, it exists.  I think what you mean is do I beleive it happened, as in did everythign happen?  In the context of my last answer, yes.  Some parts don't pass your "truth" filter becasue they are not a recording of actual events.  For example, parables taught by Jesus.  Did they happen?  No, even Jesus is clear about that.  For the parables, there are points to the stories.  These points are "truths" i.e. knowledge learned through the telling of  the parable, the parable as example.

    Does this make sense to you?

    [/QUOTE]

    Getting there.  But do you accept the Old Testament rules (all 613 of them) as the "word of God" and do you abide by them?  How about the various stories of the Old and New Testaments?  Noah and the ark...  The story of Job...  The plagues on Egypt...  The virgin birth...  Just curious as to how believers address their dogma: inner meaning or actual history.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    .

     

    [/QUOTE]


    The Bible is part history and part mythology.

    Are you a literalist and believe it is all true?

    [/QUOTE]

    To the specfic point of truth:  of course it is "true" as you mean it, it exists.  I think what you mean is do I beleive it happened, as in did everythign happen?  In the context of my last answer, yes.  Some parts don't pass your "truth" filter becasue they are not a recording of actual events.  For example, parables taught by Jesus.  Did they happen?  No, even Jesus is clear about that.  For the parables, there are points to the stories.  These points are "truths" i.e. knowledge learned through the telling of  the parable, the parable as example.

    Does this make sense to you?

    [/QUOTE]

    Getting there.  But do you accept the Old Testament rules (all 613 of them) as the "word of God" and do you abide by them?  How about the various stories of the Old and New Testaments?  Noah and the ark...  The story of Job...  The plagues on Egypt...  The virgin birth...  Just curious as to how believers address their dogma: inner meaning or actual history.

    [/QUOTE]

    The new testament is not stories, but consists of two basic things:  testimony of Jesus and his mission, and letters.  You might not beleive them, but they are not stories, as in made up, novels, etc.

    As far as the old testament: Some history, some stories with a message (god inspired).

    The law:  Jesus came to fulfill the law.  All of it. So Christians do not live under the OT law, but under grace.  Salvation is by grace, not by obeying the law.

    Hope that helps.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    A story can be true or fictitious.  I believe there are elements of both in the New Testament.  After all it was written years afterwards and there are discepancies when comparing the Gospels.

    Apparently you do not accept the Old Testament in a literal way.   "Stories (as you define it) with a message" sound like mythology.  Interesting how you divide the "miracles" of the Old from the "miracles" of the New Testaments.

    And if Jesus, a Jew, was intent on fulfilling the (Jewish) law, shouldn't that law still apply to those that follow his teachings?  Don't you obey the commandments to show you are worthy of grace?

    Just asking...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to WhatDoYouWantNow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    The point is, the point I was trying to make, that the bible is not a novel.  That's just not accurate, even for secular progressives, it simply is not accurate.



    Of course it's not a novel. It would be the most god-awful boring piece of work ever written if it were.

     

     

    No. What the bible is is a collection of stories that nice Jewish people told each other for thousands of years and were slowly transcribed and collected as written Hebrew developed. The Jewish priesthood tacked on all sorts of rules for living, some of which were pragmatic, some of where were designed to repress women, and some of which they just felt like claiming god told them about.

    A thousand or two years after that, a nice Jewish man starts gathering a following as he tries to convince people to just be nice to each other, damnit. Well, the Roman authorities - already fearful of their civil struggles that flared up with the death of Republic and rise of Empire - did not take kindly to the possibility of a power structure alternate to the Emporer.

    See, now, if the Republic were still alive, Jesus would have posed less of a threat. At worst, maybe a follower goes to Rome and eventually becomes a Senator. Big whoop. Maybe he gets a following and convinces the senate to give him a position in Jerusalem. Big Whoop. There are others. But once you've got an Empire, man, you have to stamp out potential alternate power structures.

    So, the Romans kill the nice Jewish man, and quite likely in roughly the manner described. They had a nack for hideous death-by-tortures. Anywho, the followers of that nice Jewish man decide to use the death to draw more people to them. Of course, they know perfectly well - having seen both Judiasm and Roman paganism - that the best way to unite a still mostly semi-conscious beings (humans) is through mythologizing a leader.

    And so they spread stories, and write stories, about magic things this nice Jewish man supposedly did. All total bullsh!t, of course. But write them they did. And like a billion other priests in times past, they eventually got their following to grow. The principles were all designed to ensure absolute devotion. Much like fundamentalist muslims, they placed huge weight on martyrdom, on exterimination of their foes (just as the Pagans attempted to do them, up until the reign of Constantine and to a lesser extent, the earlier Diocletian).

    And once the time of Constantine passed, the Pagans became the new target. And there's nothign like past martyrdom to justify the extermination of the new heretic. And so the myriad sects of church filled rivers with the blood of pagans and other Christian sects.

    Of course, once a dude named Mohammed saw all that a few hundred years later, he decided the best way to make himself powerful was to do the same thing...just with a little more bombast. So starting with his own family, he convinced people that actually, HE was the messiah ('and Mohammed is his prophet'). With a following as fanatic as 60-300 A.D. christians werre, he proceeds to conquor all along the mideast, africa, and spain.

    Oh, and we came so very close too all being muslim due to a fluke of luck. He turned back at the wrong time. He could have taken the remnants of the Western Empire from the confused and warring Goths, Ostrogoths, and other barbarians who had taken their turn pillaging the then-fallen Wester Roman Empire. (Fell ~550; the Eastern Empire lasted, at least in nominal form, up until 1453 or thereabouts).


    The surviving muslims warred with the Christians for some time. Needless to say, in the name of this nice Jewish man, Jesus, the Christians exterminated hundreds of millions of others and their own in the roughly 1800 years until they ran out of American Indians and Africans to exterminate and finally sheathed their swords..... 

     

     

     

     

    That's history. The bible is a collection of (1) Jewish stories, and (2) mythology invented by persons seeking to establish a power structure to oppose and topple the Roman emporer, which successfully convicned untold minions to enslave themselves to fiction.

     

     

    All of which makes me hope that if any extra-terrestrials ever amble by, that they please wait ten or twenty thousand years to make contact. We have a lot of waking up to do, and my bet is on self-annhilation first.

    [/QUOTE]


    Your view point is largely centered arond two things:  Modern thought ( as if THAT was infallible) and an erroneous understanding of the bible.  I laid it out clearly.  whether you beleive it or not, what I said is the truth.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: GOP is a party of diversity!!

    In response to Reubenhop's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    A story can be true or fictitious.  I believe there are elements of both in the New Testament.  After all it was written years afterwards and there are discepancies when comparing the Gospels.

    Apparently you do not accept the Old Testament in a literal way.   "Stories (as you define it) with a message" sound like mythology.  Interesting how you divide the "miracles" of the Old from the "miracles" of the New Testaments.

    And if Jesus, a Jew, was intent on fulfilling the (Jewish) law, shouldn't that law still apply to those that follow his teachings?  Don't you obey the commandments to show you are worthy of grace?

    Just asking...

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, that's a great question, one hard to answerin just a couple of sentences.  I think the place I would point you is to understand the concept of grace, i.e. our salvation is simply a gift, untethered to law.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't observe law, it is not essential to our salvation, ie. we don't stone people who disobey the law in order to get into heaven.  I use the stoning example because it comes up often.  Clearly stoning is wrong in our current culture, but punishment is not.  For example, can we murder people?  No.  That exists in secular law.  Christains are bound by that.

    I know that is not a complete and satisfactory explanation, but I hope it illuminates where christians are coming from:  it is about grace, not law.

     

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