Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

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    Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    "A grandmother dying of ovarian cancer was sent home five times by medics who said her crippling pain was caused by trapped wind," London's Daily Mail reports:
    Barbara Collins, 68, was bed ridden for months with agonising pain and bowel problems, classic signs of the killer disease, but sent home with only laxatives.
    The mother of four was correctly diagnosed with ovarian cancer a staggering four months after her first visit to Manchester Royal Infirmary, and died 10 days later.
    Mrs Collins' family criticised the medics, who they say made her feel like a nuisance.
    She could have survived if only her cancer had been diagnosed sooner, they claim.

    But the joke's on them. As former Enron adviser Paul Krugman notes, "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."

     
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    In Response to Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]"A grandmother dying of ovarian cancer was sent home five times by medics who said her crippling pain was caused by trapped wind," London's Daily Mail reports: Barbara Collins, 68, was bed ridden for months with agonising pain and bowel problems, classic signs of the killer disease, but sent home with only laxatives. The mother of four was correctly diagnosed with ovarian cancer a staggering four months after her first visit to Manchester Royal Infirmary, and died 10 days later. Mrs Collins' family criticised the medics, who they say made her feel like a nuisance. She could have survived if only her cancer had been diagnosed sooner, they claim. But the joke's on them. As former Enron adviser Paul Krugman notes, "In Britain, the government itself runs the hospitals and employs the doctors. We've all heard scare stories about how that works in practice; these stories are false."
    Posted by 7x4[/QUOTE]

    I think we can agree that malpractice can happen under both systems.
     
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    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    Not so sure that is the case in socialized medicine.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

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    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]Not so sure that is the case in socialized medicine.
    Posted by 7x4[/QUOTE]

    Don't forget we have people in our system who get no treatment at all (or too late to make a difference) because it is not socialized.   That is systemic kind of malpractice.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jimmy42Jack0. Show Jimmy42Jack0's posts

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    Hmmm...when looking at the statistics associated with "socialized" medicine...it seems that people in the EU live longer, more productive lives than us americans...

    hmmm...how can that be if everyone is on death panels and grandma is about to be put down?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ohhhhh-Bammy. Show Ohhhhh-Bammy's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    As a member of the Obama Youth Movement.. why don't you 'volunteer' to be first.
    Take one for the fatherland.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from brat13. Show brat13's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    I saw a report the other day where Medicare, at something like 6.85%, was number one for rejecting HC claims. I guess that makes them number one in something.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]Hmmm...when looking at the statistics associated with "socialized" medicine...it seems that people in the EU live longer, more productive lives than us americans... hmmm...how can that be if everyone is on death panels and grandma is about to be put down?
    Posted by Jimmy42Jack0[/QUOTE]

    Living longer and more productive lives has nothing to do with "socialized medicine". HOW you live your life plays a HUGE roll. I'm willing to bet the obesity rate in EU is much lower than the US. We also live a much more stressful life in the US. It's our own fault of course, but stress is a killer.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jimmy42Jack0. Show Jimmy42Jack0's posts

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    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]As a member of the Obama Youth Movement.. why don't you 'volunteer' to be first. Take one for the fatherland.
    Posted by Ohhhhh-Bammy[/QUOTE]
    ?!?!?!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from easydoesit2. Show easydoesit2's posts

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    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]As a member of the Obama Youth Movement.. why don't you 'volunteer' to be first. Take one for the fatherland.
    Posted by Ohhhhh-Bammy[/QUOTE]

    Hey, I've already taken one flu shot and am on the short list for the second. I'm also way too long on the shelf to qualify for any youth movement.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from easydoesit2. Show easydoesit2's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Don't forget we have people in our system who get no treatment at all (or too late to make a difference) because it is not socialized.   That is systemic kind of malpractice.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    I believe it is medically true to state that Ovarian Cancer rarely produces telling symptoms until much too late, and therefore carries one of the highest of cancer mortality rates. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Jimmy42Jack0. Show Jimmy42Jack0's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Living longer and more productive lives has nothing to do with "socialized medicine". HOW you live your life plays a HUGE roll. I'm willing to bet the obesity rate in EU is much lower than the US. We also live a much more stressful life in the US. It's our own fault of course, but stress is a killer.
    Posted by hawkeye01[/QUOTE]
    i dont disagree with you on the obesity rates...but stress is everywhere...to be alive is to feel stress...

    when looking at the various stats, that im sorry, i cannot look for you while im at work...but you see how well the healthcare system works there and you cant help but feel a little envious...especially with how many employers have cut back on their insurance contributions if you even have a job or insurance at all
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ohhhhh-Bammy. Show Ohhhhh-Bammy's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Hey, I've already taken one flu shot and am on the short list for the second. I'm also way too long on the shelf to qualify for any youth movement.
    Posted by easydoesit2[/QUOTE]

    It comes with a swell shirt. Hope you like brown.
    Can you do the goose step?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : i dont disagree with you on the obesity rates...but stress is everywhere...to be alive is to feel stress... when looking at the various stats, that im sorry, i cannot look for you while im at work...but you see how well the healthcare system works there and you cant help but feel a little envious...especially with how many employers have cut back on their insurance contributions if you even have a job or insurance at all
    Posted by Jimmy42Jack0[/QUOTE]

    I agree stress is everywhere but we take it to another level. Look at the average vacation time for EU versus the US. Comparatively we don't take any vacations here. It's all about work. Work. Work. Work. We're crazy in this country. We don't have a healthy work/life balance. I'm talking in general of course as there are those in this country who believe in and live a good work/life balance. I'm one of them. Now that works for me and I understand there are those who enjoy being work-aholics and that's great for them. To each his/her own.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 7x4. Show 7x4's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Don't forget we have people in our system who get no treatment at all (or too late to make a difference) because it is not socialized.   That is systemic kind of malpractice.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    So forcing health care on people is the answer? 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from easydoesit2. Show easydoesit2's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : It comes with a swell shirt. Hope you like brown. Can you do the goose step?
    Posted by Ohhhhh-Bammy[/QUOTE]

    Actually, I AM an "Autumn Pallet" and look good in brown, but my arthritis doesn't allow for a goose step.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : So forcing health care on people is the answer? 
    Posted by 7x4[/QUOTE]

    Forced healthcare?  Do you think the uninsured are making some kind of political or religious statement against doctors?  No they don't have the bucks!!  If you getsick, disabled, unemployed and then uninsured you will want that "forced" healthcare.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hawkeye01. Show hawkeye01's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Forced healthcare?  Do you think the uninsured are making some kind of political or religious statement against doctors?  No they don't have the bucks!!  If you getsick, disabled, unemployed and then uninsured you will want that "forced" healthcare.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    That's not 100% true. There are many who choose not to have coverage because they feel they are young and healthy enough to go without. They'd prefer to spend that money on summers in Newport or to buy that BMW they've always wanted.
    Also disabled get Medicare.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 7x4. Show 7x4's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Forced healthcare?  Do you think the uninsured are making some kind of political or religious statement against doctors?  No they don't have the bucks!!  If you getsick, disabled, unemployed and then uninsured you will want that "forced" healthcare.
    Posted by Reubenhop[/QUOTE]

    Really? Healthcare will never be free.  How will you pay for it if are sick, disabled, and unemployed?



     
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    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    WSJ Oct 7
    The Lesson of State Health-Care Reforms

    By PETER SUDERMAN

    Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis famously envisioned the states serving as laboratories, trying "novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country." And on health care, that's just what they've done.

    Like participants in a national science fair, state governments have tested variants on most of the major components of the health-care reform plans currently being considered in Congress. The results have been dramatically increased premiums in the individual market, spiraling public health-care costs, and reduced access to care. In other words: The reforms have failed.

    New York is exhibit A. In 1993, the state prohibited insurers from declining to cover individuals with pre-existing health conditions ("guaranteed issue"). New York also required insurers to charge those enrolled in their plans the same premium, regardless of health status, age or sex ("community rating"). The goal was to reduce the number of uninsured by making health insurance more accessible, particularly to those who don't have employer-provided insurance.

    It hasn't worked out very well, according to a Manhattan Institute study released last month by Stephen T. Parente, a professor of finance at the University of Minnesota and Tarren Bragdon, CEO of the Maine Heritage Policy Center. In 1994, there were just under 752,000 individuals enrolled in individual insurance plans, or about 4.7% of the nonelderly population. This put New York roughly in line with the rest of the U.S. Today, that percentage has dropped to just 0.2% of the state's nonelderly. In contrast, between 1994 and 2007, the total number of people insured in the individual market across the U.S. rose to 5.5% from 4.5%.

    The decline in the number of people enrolled in individual insurance plans, the authors say, is "attributable largely to a steep increase in premiums" because of the state's regulations. Messrs. Parente and Bragdon estimate that repeal of community rating and guaranteed issue could reduce the price of individual coverage by 42%.

    New York's experience with guaranteed issue and community rating is not unique. In 1996, similar reforms in Washington state preceded massive premium spikes in the individual market. Some premiums increased as much as 78% in the first three years of the reforms—or 10 times medical inflation—according to a study presented at the annual meeting of the Association for Health Services Research in 1999. Other results included a 25% drop in enrollment in the individual market, and a reduction in services offered. Within four years, for example, none of the state's major carriers offered individual insurance plans that included maternity coverage.

    A 2008 analysis by Kaiser Permanente's Patricia Lynch published by Health Affairs noted that in addition to Washington and New York, the individual insurance markets in Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey and Vermont "deteriorated" after the enactment of guaranteed issue. Individual insurance became significantly more expensive and there was no significant decrease in the number of uninsured.

    Supporters of federal health-care reform argue that the problems associated with these regulations can be addressed with the addition of an individual mandate, which is part of every ObamaCare bill in Congress. This would require every individual to purchase health insurance.

    Guaranteed issue alone, the argument goes, results in slightly more expensive premiums, which drives healthier individuals out of the risk pool, which in turn further drives up premiums. The end result is that many healthy people opt out, leaving a small pool of sick individuals with very high premiums. An individual mandate, however, would spread those premium costs across a larger, healthier population, thus keeping premium costs down.

    The experience of Massachusetts, which implemented an individual mandate in 2007, suggests otherwise. Health-insurance premiums in the Bay State have risen significantly faster than the national average, according to the Commonwealth Fund, a nonprofit health foundation. At an average of $13,788, the state's family plans are now the nation's most expensive. Meanwhile, insurance companies are planning additional double-digit hikes, "prompting many employers to reduce benefits and shift additional costs to workers" according to the Boston Globe.

    And health-care costs have continued to grow rapidly. According to a Rand Corporation study this year, the growth now exceeds state GDP by 8%. The Boston Globe recently reported that state health-insurance commissioners are now worried that medical spending could push both employers and patients into bankruptcy, and may even threaten the system's continued existence.

    Meanwhile, survey data from the Massachusetts Medical Society indicate that the state's primary-care providers are being squeezed. Family doctors report taking fewer new patients and increases in wait time.

    Reform measures in other states have proven to be expensive duds. Maine's 2003 reform plan, Dirigo Health, included a government insurance option resembling the public option included in the House health-care bill. This public plan, "DirigoChoice," was supposed to expand care to all 128,000 of Maine's uninsured by 2009. But according to the U.S. Census Bureau, the 2007 uninsured rate remained roughly 10%—essentially unchanged. DirigoChoice's individual insurance premiums increased by 74% over its first four years—to $499 a month from $287 a month—according to an analysis of Dirigo data by the Maine Heritage Policy Center. The cost of DirigoHealth to taxpayers so far has been $155 million.


    Tennessee's plan for universal coverage, dubbed TennCare, fared even worse in the 1990s. The goal of the state-run public insurance plan was to expand coverage to the uninsured by reducing waste. But the costs of expanding coverage quickly ballooned. In 2005, facing bankruptcy, the state was forced to cut 170,000 individuals from its insurance rolls.

    Despite these state-level failures, President Barack Obama and congressional Democrats are pushing forward a slate of similar reforms. Unlike most high-school science fair participants, they seem unaware that the point of doing experiments is to identify what actually works. Instead, they've identified what doesn't—and decided to do it again.

    —Mr. Suderman is an associate editor at Reason magazine.
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

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    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : Really? Healthcare will never be free.  How will you pay for it if are sick, disabled, and unemployed?
    Posted by 7x4[/QUOTE]

    By a healthcare system similar to what every other industrial nation has.  Some day we will get civilized on this issue.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Reubenhop. Show Reubenhop's posts

    Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine

    In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Great Moments in Socialized Medicine : That's not 100% true. There are many who choose not to have coverage because they feel they are young and healthy enough to go without. They'd prefer to spend that money on summers in Newport or to buy that BMW they've always wanted. Also disabled get Medicare.
    Posted by hawkeye01[/QUOTE]

    How many people do you think are uninsured and drive a BMW?  Seriously?  
     

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