Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    That liberal enclave, Haavaad! Well how about that?  The study is published in Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy.

    In fact, it appears, bans may actually see them increase. Here’s a summary of the study’s findings:

    The Harvard study attempts to answer the question of whether or not banning firearms would reduce murders and suicides.  Researchers looked at crime data from several European countries and found that countries with HIGHER gun ownership often had LOWER murder rates.

    Russia, for example, enforces very strict gun control on its people, but its murder rate remains quite high.  In fact, the murder rate in Russia is four times higher than in the “gun-ridden” United States, cites the study. ”Homicide results suggest that where guns are scarce other weapons are substituted in killings.” In other words, the elimination of guns does not eliminate murder, and in the case of gun-controlled Russia, murder rates are quite high.

    The study revealed several European countries with significant gun ownership, like Norway, Finland, Germany and France – had remarkably low murder rates. Contrast that with Luxembourg, “where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002.

    The study found no evidence to suggest that the availability of guns contributes to higher murder rates anywhere in the world.  ”Of course, it may be speculated that murder rates around the world would be higher if guns were more available. But there is simply no evidence to support this.”

    And, as the study points out, where guns are banned, murderers still find weapons with which to do their dirty work.  The difference is that the victims potential means of self-defense.  With guns available, one would assume their deterrent effect if not outright effectiveness in the self-defense realm would predictably knock the murder rate down.  Criminals and murderers are less likely to attack if the possibility the potential victim is armed exists.  Common sense 101.

    Further, the report cited, “the determinants of murder and suicide are basic social, economic, and cultural factors, not the prevalence of some form of deadly mechanism.”  Meaning, it’s not guns that kill people.

    People kill people.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    "Russia, for example, enforces very strict gun control on its people, but its murder rate remains quite high.  In fact, the murder rate in Russia is four times higher than in the “gun-ridden” United States, cites the study. "

     

    Well that just can't be! How's that possible? We've been told more guns equals more murders. You mean people will use other means than a gun to kill someone? You don't say...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    Russia has strict gun control, but due to corruption in its military gunrunning is rampant and soldiers are the primary conduit for small arms proliferation, especially after the disintegration of the USSR, but the problem persists today.  Other contryies that border Russia are also supply chains for illegal arms into the country which still suffers from high poverty, income inequality, and alcoholism.  3/4 of those arrested for murder in Russia were intoxicated at the time the crime was committed.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    Most people don't support banning guns, so i'm sure why this study is a big deal. 

    Most people support common sense restrictions on ownership and the selling of guns.  There are also studies that confirm that states with the least amount of gun laws have the highest rates of gun violence, and the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    Russia has strict gun control, but due to corruption in its military gunrunning is rampant and soldiers are the primary conduit for small arms proliferation, especially after the disintegration of the USSR, but the problem persists today.  Other contryies that border Russia are also supply chains for illegal arms into the country which still suffers from high poverty, income inequality, and alcoholism.  3/4 of those arrested for murder in Russia were intoxicated at the time the crime was committed.  



    Goes to the point that all the gun laws in the world won't prevent guns from being obtained illegally. Sort of like how all our drug laws don't prevent people from getting drugs.

    Now, does this mean we should have NO laws? Of course not. Just don't pi55 on my head and tell me it's raining by telling me (not you specifically) that more gun laws will prevent gun violence. That's just not reality.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    Most people don't support banning guns, so i'm sure why this study is a big deal. 

    Most people support common sense restrictions on ownership and the selling of guns.  There are also studies that confirm that states with the least amount of gun laws have the highest rates of gun violence, and the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     



    The problem is, thatthe progressive, government view of gun ownership is so restricitve, that it prevents people from defending themselves, like this example:

    August 21, 2013

    Elderly man protects himself and wife from escaped inmate, The Des Moines Register, Des Moines, Iowa 08/20/13

    Jerome and Carolyn Mauderly were asleep at home in Bedford, Iowa when an armed criminal broke into their house and held the elderly couple hostage. The criminal was Rodney Eugene Long, a convicted felon and escaped inmate from the nearby Clarinda Correctional Facility, who police believe shot a Taylor County Sheriff’s Deputy a day earlier, and who was the subject of an extensive manhunt. After being held captive for four hours, Jerome took an opportunity to retrieve a shotgun kept in the home. After getting hold of the shotgun, Jerome shot and killed Long. As an escaped prisoner, Long made a terrible choice of victims; Jerome Mauderly is a retired prison guard. However, Long might not have had much luck choosing another household to victimize in Bedford, as a pair of waitresses interviewed at the local Junction Café during the manhunt explained to a reporter that their loved ones were aware of the fugitive, armed, and prepared for the worst. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    I have two problems with this study: 1) Not all guns are the same - I would wager that handgun ownership is directly related to murder and suicide rates, while shotguns are simply related to the size of land owned in each country and 2) European countries that border several other countries are more closely related to state laws than national laws.  How effectively can Luxembourg enforce a gun ban?  

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ComingLiberalCrackup. Show ComingLiberalCrackup's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to UserName99's comment:

    Most people don't support banning guns, so i'm sure why this study is a big deal. 

    Most people support common sense restrictions on ownership and the selling of guns.  There are also studies that confirm that states with the least amount of gun laws have the highest rates of gun violence, and the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     



    Most people don't support banning "assault" weapons? Aren't those considered guns?

    CA has very strict gun control yet have a gun murder rate per 100,000 of 3.4, while NH is nowhere near strict with gun control with 0.4 rate.

    Hell, Alaska has very little in regards to gun control and is at 2.7, much lower than CA which is one of the most strict. 

    MA is also very strict and is at 1.8, which is higher than NH 0.4 and VT which is at 0.3

    NY, another pretty strict gun control state is at 2.7, still higher than some states with much less gun control laws.

    So sure, there are plenty of states that are less restrictive that have high gun murders, but as I've shown above there are also states with very high amount of gun control having worse murder rates than some states with much less gun control.

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to slomag's comment:

    I have two problems with this study: 1) Not all guns are the same - I would wager that handgun ownership is directly related to murder and suicide rates, while shotguns are simply related to the size of land owned in each country and 2) European countries that border several other countries are more closely related to state laws than national laws.  How effectively can Luxembourg enforce a gun ban?  



    How effectively can Luxembourg enforce a gun ban?  

     

    How can any state/country effectively enforce a gun ban? Look at how "successful" the US is at effectively enforcing drug laws. The reality is if someone want to get illegal drugs, they will. If someone wants to get illegal guns, they will.

    Again, this isn't to say certain things shouldn't be banned. But don't think for one second that banning something is the answer to making it go away. Not by a long shot. 

     
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    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

    In response to UserName99's comment:

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Illinois 21st in per-capita gun murders.  DC is a city.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

     

    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

     

     

    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     



    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to slomag's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I have two problems with this study: 1) Not all guns are the same - I would wager that handgun ownership is directly related to murder and suicide rates, while shotguns are simply related to the size of land owned in each country and 2) European countries that border several other countries are more closely related to state laws than national laws.  How effectively can Luxembourg enforce a gun ban?  

     



    How effectively can Luxembourg enforce a gun ban? 

     

     

    How can any state/country effectively enforce a gun ban? Look at how "successful" the US is at effectively enforcing drug laws. The reality is if someone want to get illegal drugs, they will. If someone wants to get illegal guns, they will.

    Again, this isn't to say certain things shouldn't be banned. But don't think for one second that banning something is the answer to making it go away. Not by a long shot. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree with that, but it contradicts the assertion of the paper.  It's not that gun bans are ineffective - look at Singapore or Japan.  It's that they are difficult to enforce in countries that share long land borders.  A national gun ban in the US would not be easy, or 100% effective, but it would decrease the gun homicide rate, and it would be easier for us than for Luxembourg or Russia.

    FYI, I don't support a national gun ban - just arguing a flaw in the thesis.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

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    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DamainAllen. Show DamainAllen's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     

    [/QUOTE]

    California is high on the list, despite having very restrictive laws.  That said, this survery offers very little for policy making in the US.  In some cases we can observe a correlation in some states that few gun laws lead to few murders.  In states with very restrictive gun laws there are high rates of gun related murders.  And even beyond that we can observe states with lax gun laws with rates of gun related deaths that the highest in the nation.  Other factors are at play, so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

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    In response to ComingLiberalCrackup's comment:

     

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    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     

    [/QUOTE]

    They need to build a fence between AZ and NV :)

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

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    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

     

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    In response to UserName99's comment:

     

     

     

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

     

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    California is high on the list, despite having very restrictive laws.  That said, this survery offers very little for policy making in the US.  In some cases we can observe a correlation in some states that few gun laws lead to few murders.  In states with very restrictive gun laws there are high rates of gun related murders.  And even beyond that we can observe states with lax gun laws with rates of gun related deaths that the highest in the nation.  Other factors are at play, so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation.  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation.  

     

    I agree. Which is why I laugh when people say more gun laws will reduce gun violence. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from skeeter20. Show skeeter20's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    All this is meaningless dribble.  The constitution states that the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.  

    Most of this talk about gun control is nothing more than infringement.

    You want to change it?  Change the constitution.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UserName99. Show UserName99's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to skeeter20's comment:

    All this is meaningless dribble.  The constitution states that the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.  

    Most of this talk about gun control is nothing more than infringement.

    You want to change it?  Change the constitution.



    I notice you left out the 'Well Regulated' part.

     

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to FortySixAndTwo's comment:

    In response to DamainAllen's comment:

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

     

     

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    California is high on the list, despite having very restrictive laws.  That said, this survery offers very little for policy making in the US.  In some cases we can observe a correlation in some states that few gun laws lead to few murders.  In states with very restrictive gun laws there are high rates of gun related murders.  And even beyond that we can observe states with lax gun laws with rates of gun related deaths that the highest in the nation.  Other factors are at play, so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation.  

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation. 

     

     

    I agree. Which is why I laugh when people say more gun laws will reduce gun violence. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think laws on a state level are very effective, but you can't deny the difference handgun restrictions have made in Australia.  They still have a pretty high gun ownership rate (around 15%) but they are mostly shotguns (for dingoes stealing babies, obviously).  The gun murder per capita rate is next to nothing.

     

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from FortySixAndTwo. Show FortySixAndTwo's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate

    In response to slomag's comment:

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    the states with the most gun laws have the least gun violence.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     



    Sure...like Illinois and DC.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    In terms of gun deaths per capita (that is per 100,000 people ) Illinois is tied with Alabama and New Jersey at 2.8 per 100K.  Higher on the list are states like Louisiana, Arizona, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, and other states with very lax gun control laws.   That said, it should be noted that the states with the lowest rate of gun murders also have some of the most lax laws concerning gun ownership, and for the most part are all states that are mostly rural and northern (Vermont, NH, Maine, Oregon, Iowa, Hawaii, Utah, Minnesota, Idaho, among others).  

     

     

     

     

     

    With the exception of DC and Maryland all of the states with the most gun deaths per capita (and also very lax gun laws) are all in the south.  Southern states represent 8 ot the top 10 states with the most gun murders in the country.  I

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Don't forget CA with some of the most strict gun laws being at 3.4, higher than Illinois, Alabama and New Jersey

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    California is high on the list, despite having very restrictive laws.  That said, this survery offers very little for policy making in the US.  In some cases we can observe a correlation in some states that few gun laws lead to few murders.  In states with very restrictive gun laws there are high rates of gun related murders.  And even beyond that we can observe states with lax gun laws with rates of gun related deaths that the highest in the nation.  Other factors are at play, so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation.  

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    so we can only conclude what we already know, correlation doesn't equal causation. 

     

     

     

    I agree. Which is why I laugh when people say more gun laws will reduce gun violence. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I don't think laws on a state level are very effective, but you can't deny the difference handgun restrictions have made in Australia.  They still have a pretty high gun ownership rate (around 15%) but they are mostly shotguns (for dingoes stealing babies, obviously).  The gun murder per capita rate is next to nothing.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Not so sure it's the restrictions. 

    Australia's gun related deaths per 100k is 1.06, with guns per 100 residents at 15.

    Luxenborg is also around 15 per 100 guns owned with gun related deaths at 2.02

    Mexico is also at 15 per 100 guns owned yet gun related deaths much higher at 11.7

    Cyprus at 36.1 guns owned (much higher than Australia) but lower gun related deaths at 0.96

    Germany at 30.3 guns owned (higher than Australia) yet only 1.24 gun related deaths

     

    It's not just restrictions. It's also culture that plays a big part. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from macnh1. Show macnh1's posts

    Re: Harvard gun study concludes gun bans don’t reduce the murder rate


    it depends on who lives in each of these countries....liberals hate admitting that our biggest problem is the behavior of people not guns or anything else...........behavior, choices and personal responsibility....that's all it is...

     
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